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That Blasted Samophlange

I really want the First Order (and Resistance) and why they are viable as factions.

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16 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Maybe Star Wars isn’t for you. Your whole rant makes you sound like an incel and by the way incels definitely made those YouTube videos which are so obviously trash.  

Someone disagrees with you and shows you obvious facts. You respond with name-calling. Shame...

What about the horrible audience score of 44% on rotten tomatoes? Seems like the average Star Wars fan hated the movie aye?

 

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1 minute ago, R3dReVenge said:

Someone disagrees with you and shows you obvious facts. You respond with name-calling. Shame...

What about the horrible audience score of 44% on rotten tomatoes? Seems like the average Star Wars fan hated the movie aye?

 

I think terms like "absolute trash" and "garbage" are in the same broad category as name-calling. I don't think youtube videos count as facts. 

Rotten Tomatoes I find at best a vague guide. Most people have poor taste, the contents of the top 40 is a continual proof of this.

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Just now, TauntaunScout said:

I think terms like "absolute trash" and "garbage" are in the same broad category as name-calling. I don't think youtube videos count as facts. 

Rotten Tomatoes I find at best a vague guide. Most people have poor taste, the contents of the top 40 is a continual proof of this.

Not exactly. I'm talking about a movie. He's referring to people who dislike the movie. The youtube videos break down the movie and exploit it's flaws (facts). Lack of character depth, boring plot, failed action scenes, etc. 

I tend to ignore Rotten Tomatoes Critic score. It's usually very off from the actual movie experience. That being said, I've found that if the Audience score is low then that's a good indicator of a failing movie (due to it's large sample size). 

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19 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

There pretty much isn't any. I've gone into this in some detail. There could have been but there wasn't because the art has left Star Wars. It left during the prequels, which are worse than the sequels.

There's only one and she's still alive. Rose is the most compelling sequel character IMO. This is because her motivation is tied to the death of Paige, which is the most compelling sequel scene yet I think. For reasons I've laid out before, I think Paige's death gets back to everything that made SW great. Namely, subtle homage to the prior few decades of great films that preceded it, about as much scary sadness as you can expect a kid's movie to dish out for motivation, and a firmly pseudo-historical visual design.

Rose is the only character they haven't ruined yet.

She went to the school of hard knocks, this was established early in the film. She's an experienced melee combatant. And Ren was shot in the shoulder, and under serious emotional stress besides.

This is a stretch and doesn't explain how she mastered the saber so quickly. I guess since Ren was shot, maybe this is why he failed? Sounds like boring story-telling to me though.

Pretty sure the FO trained him.

But an ex-FO soldier is somehow superior than the FO general? 

Except when Han dies, Rey gets captured, all their ships get blown up, and so forth.

I honestly felt that this was a win for the Resistance. Han died, but the Resistance still won.

I have no idea why anyone finds him compelling. He's as drab as another-other Death Star.

I liked the mystery behind him. Just like I liked the mystery behind Rey's parents. Both were solved in a very short order though.

I saw the movie I don't need a youtube video to give me a play by play. Also it looks like it was maybe made by Evil People for Evil Purposes?

Evil? They posted their opinion (I know he's vulgar), but that's a bit of a stretch?

Laughter isn't usually a good indicator of accurate discussions that are trying to reach a well reasoned conclusion or make an accurate prediction.

Not giving the hyperbolic YouTube video the benefit of clicks. To me, a complete cinematic failure is something that loses money AND is panned by contemporary critics AND fails to become appreciated in the years after it leaves theaters. So far every SW movie has made money and generated a loyal fanbase so there haven't been any complete failures. See also: Evil People for Evil Purposes?

I think this is an incorrect assessment. SW movies will never lose money. The franchise has to many fans to let this happen. What could happen is a loss of fans, or a failure to introduce the next generation of kids into the universe. My nephew hated the movie and fell asleep... Overtime this will result in a loss of money. See Solo Movie.

Same way I tell the difference between rebel commando and a rebel trooper.

They look very similar to me. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

That being said, I've found that if the Audience score is low then that's a good indicator of a failing movie

Same audience that gives us the top 40 in music. 

You don’t seem particularly interested in discussing film as art and neither do those youtubers. 

I mean can you tell me with a straight face what movies you think are worse than the sequels or are as good or better than the other SW movies? Cause in the many thousands of movies made there must be some. Unless you’re being hyperbolicly partisan for the fun of it. Which IS fun to do. 

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15 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Same audience that gives us the top 40 in music. 

You don’t seem particularly interested in discussing film as art and neither do those youtubers. 

I mean can you tell me with a straight face what movies you think are worse than the sequels or are as good or better than the other SW movies? Cause in the many thousands of movies made there must be some. Unless you’re being hyperbolicly partisan for the fun of it. Which IS fun to do. 

I don't have an issue to the top 40 in music. I like all types of music. Even though the top songs aren't what I listen to, I understand why they're popular.

I watch films to be entertained. I can understand why some people see film as art, but I do not. This is where it gets difficult because it seems like you are critiquing the movie based on it as an art, while I'm critiquing it on how entertained I was in the theater. 

Ranking SW Movies: Rogue One > Empire Strikes Back > Revenge of the Sith > Return of the Jedi > Attack of the Clones > Phantom Menace > Solo > Force Awakens > The Last Jedi.

Recent movies that I liked better than TLJ: Shazam, Pet Semetery, US, Captain Marvel, Aquaman.

 

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Posted (edited)

You used some weird format that's not "quotable" for some reason on my computer.

For ex-FO soldiers vs current FO Generals, yes it extremely likely that a recently mustered out Private Jones can beat a Norman Schwarzkopf in a toe to toe fight.

For Evil People, given recent events with Kelly Tran, it's frankly a very real concern of mine with any link which appears to be extremely negative about the sequels.

Anyways if you have anything to say about what would and wouldn't work within a miniatures game context that's sorta the purpose of the thread. Film is not the same media as fantastical miniature wargames. I hated the weird baton/shield fight in the movie but such a game as this it would be a sensible product. Even if it wound up being the "unusable" heavy of the squad.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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4 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Even if it wound up being the "unusable" heavy of the squad

That has only really happened with the corp squads that were released right at the beginning of the game where what the developers thought the players would use vs what they actually did weren't matching up. Granted it's a problem, especially when it's occurring with the most common units, but the Hoth Troopers bring me some hope to that front even though it's too early to tell. The Phase 1 clones, and I know you don't like them, also look to be a bit more balanced with their heavy options as I don't expect either of the options to be exhaustible.

3 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

Since when did this topic go from "Let's talk about putting the new Star Wars stuff in this game eventually!" to "The sequel trilogy RUINED Star Wars and you're literally Satan if you disagree!"

 

Let's try to bring this back to Legion rather than movie bashing.

Once someone said that the prequels were bad and the sequels were good, it was going to happen. Whether intended or not, saying that is going to upset someone somewhere and trigger a response.

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As I stated earlier I am not really sure how FFG can do the First Oder without making them too much like the Empire.  Everything I have seen on screen shows they have better technology but worst over all effectiveness.

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11 minutes ago, chr335 said:

As I stated earlier I am not really sure how FFG can do the First Oder without making them too much like the Empire.  Everything I have seen on screen shows they have better technology but worst over all effectiveness.

Aim tokens and Precise seem to the the Empire's thing, so give the First Order something else.

They are portrayed as being extremely Fanatical, so make that the First Order keyword.

Something like:

Fanatical: After performing a ranged attack against an opposing unit, if the opposing unit was destroyed, you may perform an additional attack against another opposing unit within range 2 of you.

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32 minutes ago, chr335 said:

As I stated earlier I am not really sure how FFG can do the First Oder without making them too much like the Empire.  Everything I have seen on screen shows they have better technology but worst over all effectiveness.

But if it’s a miniatures game that’s not necessarily going to stop them.  As long  as enough people like FO. Aesthetics are a huge driver of sales in this kind of game. The first order SEEMS to me to have probably more hero models than the Empire. But maybe I am wrong. 

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1 hour ago, Indy_com said:

Aim tokens and Precise seem to the the Empire's thing, so give the First Order something else.

They are portrayed as being extremely Fanatical, so make that the First Order keyword.

Something like:

Fanatical: After performing a ranged attack against an opposing unit, if the opposing unit was destroyed, you may perform an additional attack against another opposing unit within range 2 of you.

I don't know about another attack, but maybe remove a suppression token if you make a successful attack?   Drives them to be hyper aggressive and rewards that behaviour.

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1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I don't know about another attack, but maybe remove a suppression token if you make a successful attack?   Drives them to be hyper aggressive and rewards that behaviour.

Course another way to solve them being "too imperial" and "too rebelish" is to simply release them as Empire and Rebellion units. Boba Fett didn't get a mercenary faction in this game.

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8 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Course another way to solve them being "too imperial" and "too rebelish" is to simply release them as Empire and Rebellion units. Boba Fett didn't get a mercenary faction in this game.

I think that the First order and Resistance will be their own factions.  As of now the First Order has enough units to create their own faction and as others have said they can give the First Order new keywords.  The resistance will probably get new options in episode IX. As for Boba not getting a mercenary faction, the Q&A didn't rule it out and hinted that it may be a thing later.

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On 4/5/2019 at 1:31 AM, Jabby said:

76934217.jpg

I mean, if you want to argue on behalf of the more lackluster episodes, I guess you could make a valiant effort. But a whole lot of it is paint by numbers stories that brings pretty much nothing new for anyone who has seen any of the last few decades of tv.

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12 hours ago, chr335 said:

Same reason modern soldiers are equipped with knives and other melee weapons the ammo has run out and there are still things that need a killing

I don’t recall off hand, but he didn’t seem to run out of ammo, so much as lose his cool and decide to pull that thing out...right?

Either way, it would have been more emotionally resonant if they’d introduced Fin’s relationships with his fellow stormtroopers, besides just Phasma. Oh well, coulda shoulda woulda.

 

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3 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Here's the thing. In the grand scheme of all American film history, the sequel trilogy are bad movies, I don't dispute that. This is not a criticism per se, I don't hold it against them: most movies are average or worse, by definition. If not, your definition of "average" is off. I think it's fair to say that I enjoyed them no more or less than a Star Tours ride. BUT. I'll take all of the flaws of the sequels (so far) over midichlorians, an entire army of Boba Fett's identical twin brothers, an immaculate conception, Order 666, bizarrely retconning the phrase "a young pupil of mine named Darth Vader" (his name was DARTH and you didn't know he was evil?), and then making all the new Darth's have over the top badguy names like Darth Filthius and Darth Eyestabber, retconncing that in a scant few years somehow everyone forgot the Jedi ("Your sad devotion to that ancient religion" makes no sense now), CGI for its own sake, the acting of both Anakins, Jar-Jar, the mysterious new phrase padawan instead of the established apprentice, pupil, etc. Finding out Darth Vader built C-3PO, the mystery of why in all those years Queen Amidala didn't send a courier with a suitcase full of gold to redeem Anakin's mom out of slavery, I'm out of time to go on. The sequels are deeply flawed but have far fewer deep flaws than the prequels.

I just have to reply to the above (and while already at it, I can't leave some other parts unaddressed). First of all, I'd like to add to this list that the Clone Wars are pretty much the exact opposite of what their name had implied them to be since the original Star Wars (ANH). BUT: You can't pin the "young pupil" line on the PT; TESB already retconned this as Darth Vader not having been his name at the time (among other things) with "I am your father!" - together with RotJ's "She's my sister." this establishes retcons with implications that strain the suspension of disbelief as a part of the DNA of Star Wars since the early days, and most of your complaints are about nothing more than that. For the reinterpretation of Darth as a title and the comic book villain names of most of them you'd have to blame the Expanded Universe and Lucas's willingness not to actively contradict it in major ways (the names of Palpatine and Coruscant also come to mind). You'd think that twenty years wouldn't be enough to reduce something like the Jedi to a faint memory; history has shown us that they very much are. (The bigger issue with "your sad devotion" is that after the retcon of Darth Vader from random enforcer to the Emperor's right hand man, Motti daring to speak to him like that makes no sense. But again, this already happened during the Original Trilogy.) I dislike "padawan" mostly since it's the only such term, with no made-up words for Sith apprentices or other Jedi ranks.

Both the PT and the ST are deeply flawed in terms of plots and characters, but the OT has a few problems in these regards as well, and while the PT contradicts several remarks made in ANH about the GFFA's backstory, TESB and RotJ already did so as well, and at least it doesn't invalidate all the struggles and the ultimate victory of the OT as the ST does. Decades of stories thrown out by Disney, so not to impede on the masterpiece idea of "let's rehash Rebel Alliance vs. Galactic Empire without any buildup - nobody we know really did much of anything for forty years". And while the EU had its (overly large) share of planet killers and system killers, none of them were as ludicrous as Starkiller Base (or as setting-breaking as the Holdo Maneuver). I can ignore the structural integrity absurdities of a hollowed-out terrestrial planet in a space fantasy setting, but storing all the energy of a whole star within (an artificial replacement of) a planetary core and a beam that simultaneously travels faster than light between systems and is slow enough to be watched, let alone splits into tentacle-like smaller beams in the target system to hit every planet individually as if it were a bundle of torpedoes? Make. It. Stop. Please! My point being that the Prequel Trilogy at least offers (the groundwork for) a compelling setting, whereas the Sequel Trilogy, if anything, does the very opposite, and Star Wars has always been more the overall setting for me than any particular set of films.

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There's only one and she's still alive. Rose is the most compelling sequel character IMO. This is because her motivation is tied to the death of Paige, which is the most compelling sequel scene yet I think. For reasons I've laid out before, I think Paige's death gets back to everything that made SW great. Namely, subtle homage to the prior few decades of great films that preceded it, about as much scary sadness as you can expect a kid's movie to dish out for motivation, and a firmly pseudo-historical visual design.

They could have done some seriously grim BS in episode 7 and made Finn very compelling but they lacked the guts. Rey's motivation is confusing to say the least.

Erm, nope, not a single compelling character. Mind, as far as compelling goes, the PT only had Dooku, and the films left him woefully underexplored.

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This is to say nothing of classic characters like Luke. Only unvarnished age-ism can lead one to the conclusion that the actors are too old to carry a new trilogy. I think it was a serious mistake to throw them under the bus.

Hear, hear!

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She went to the school of hard knocks, this was established early in the film. She's an experienced melee combatant. And Ren was shot in the shoulder, and under serious emotional stress besides.

Pretty sure the FO trained him.

Rey's untrained Jedi Mind Trick in TFA is pretty bad, but other than this she's perfectly fine in that film - and the fight in question the very highlight of verisimilitude for all the reasons you've pointed out. And while every single character is horrible in TLJ, she probably got away with the least damage.

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I have no idea why anyone finds him compelling. He's as drab as another-other Death Star.

Snoke is an early Emperor concept art (and description) brought onto the screen. Captain Phasma is an early Boba Fett concept art (and description) brought onto the screen (made female during casting). Starkiller Base is an early Death Star concept art brought onto the screen (and blown up in size). And I'm pretty sure there are more cases like these which I'm forgetting right now. Funny how Abrams et al. actively advertised going back to Ralph McQuarrie's concept art for the ST X-wings (which in reality diverge as much from those as the OT ones do, only in different ways), but stayed entirely mum about all these closer cases. The reason people like(d) Snoke is basically the same as with Boba Fett: Cool visuals with an air of mystery.

ANYHOW, I have to admit that visually the standard FO stormtroopers (and the standard FO TIE fighters) are improvements over their predecessors, but only slightly so, and all other military vehicles look worse than their OT counterparts while all other troops are so similar, they haven't left any impression on me either way. I wouldn't touch any Sequel Trilogy stuff with a bargepole, but whatever floats your boats is fine by me; you do you.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Course another way to solve them being "too imperial" and "too rebelish" is to simply release them as Empire and Rebellion units. Boba Fett didn't get a mercenary faction in this game.

I'm actually fine with no “mercenary” faction.   It doesn't make a terrible amount of sense to me.  Though, a mercenary corp unit could be interesting if done in a way that anyone could take it, but that is hard to implement activation token wise.
 
 To put it how you will understand, running first order troops in the empire faction for me is like you running Jyn Erso with your Hoth themed units.  
It doesn't fit.   
mer·ce·nar·y
/ˈmərsəˌnerē/
adjective
  1. 1. 
    (of a person or their behavior) primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics.
    "she's nothing but a mercenary little gold digger"
    synonyms: money-orientedgraspinggreedyacquisitiveavariciouscovetousrapacious, bribable, venalmaterialistic;
    informalmoney-grubbing
    "research suggests that buyers are unashamedly mercenary"
    noun
    1. 1. 
      a professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army.
      synonyms:

      soldier of fortune, professional soldier, hired soldier, hirelingMore

       
Edited by That Blasted Samophlange

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If they got rid of FO and Resistance sub factions in Xwing and made them their own faction, than I can't see why they would do that in Legion. And Boba being in the imperial faction is a sign for me, that IF they release a Scum Faction, it will be a long, long way down the road.

By the way, like them or not, but I constantly see people refering to the ST as bad films, while the one to make it a trilogy isn't even out. Kinda weird imo.

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15 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:
I'm actually fine with no “mercenary” faction.   It doesn't make a terrible amount of sense to me.  Though, a mercenary corp unit could be interesting if done in a way that anyone could take it, but that is hard to implement activation token wise.  To put it how you will understand, running first order troops in the empire faction for me is like you running Jyn Erso with your Hoth themed units.  
It doesn't fit.  

Package a mercenary squad with all or no activation tokens. Done. There's a max number of activation tokens anyone needs anyways. People who insist on everything being official are the type to buy loads of expansions and will have spares, not-official people aren't going to hesitate to make a complete set using poker chips and a sharpie.

Legion's creators have never cared about fit or sense-making.

Sequel stuff's probably going to be another pair of factions if the game keeps making enough money for FFG and Disney. It wouldn't surprise me if instead of a neutral faction anyone can use, we get a more specific faction like "Hutt Syndicates" or something.

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I really don't see FFG making the Sequel units part of the Rebellion and Empire, they will be their own faction. My guess is that, with the conclusion of the trilogy releasing this chrismas, they will release them next year. Last year we got the game with the Original Trilogy, this summer we get the Clone Wars, next year we get the Sequel trilogy.

As for distinction goes, one thing to keep in mind is that the First Order is the Empire. After their defeat at Jakku, they went into the Unknown Regions to rebuild and now they are back to try to reclaim control. It's the legacy of the Empire.

To differentiate them from the Empire, I think that Indy_Com is on the right track with them being fanatical soldiers. They have been brainwashed to fight for the First Order. So, maybe something to do with morale and pushing the attack even while suppressed. Ideas could be simply a higher morale, or relentless, or keeping their second action even while suppressed.

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11 hours ago, twincast said:

I wouldn't touch any Sequel Trilogy stuff with a bargepole,

Neither would I but I disagree with the criticisms and praises it usually draws. Particularly when contextualized against what people say about the prequels. But I'm tired of helping to derail the thread. Largely the sequels just serve to remind me why I've lost interest in the action genre as I age. Once in a blue moon we get something like ye olde trilogy, or a Rogue One or a Mad Max: Fury Road but most of the genre isn't like that. Something intrinsic to the film industry prevents it.

At any rate they will make good material for tabletop gaming merchandise. Even my beloved WEG made Noghri miniatures, so, First Order stormtroopers would be fine with me. I'm not gonna buy any but, I am pragmatic enough to know the game's not going to keep chugging along without more factions to make mirror-matchups statistically highly unlikely.

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