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hawk32

Points and formats

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10 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

Then justify having 2 different formats.

 

Why? He said no (and I agree). FO and Resistance aren't "way underpriced" in Hyperspace. Poe is good, certainly, but he's fairly costed compared to Wedge, Vader and Fenn. Empire struggles a little, but that's mostly due to ship selection and a couple of undercooked designs (Reaper and x1) and no reasonable way to run the ever-popular ace wing lists.

You aren't seriously suggesting that a Scum & Villainy list will just fold if the other player happens to run First Order?

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5 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Why? He said no (and I agree). FO and Resistance aren't "way underpriced" in Hyperspace. Poe is good, certainly, but he's fairly costed compared to Wedge, Vader and Fenn. Empire struggles a little, but that's mostly due to ship selection and a couple of undercooked designs (Reaper and x1) and no reasonable way to run the ever-popular ace wing lists.

You aren't seriously suggesting that a Scum & Villainy list will just fold if the other player happens to run First Order?

Bold: what?

If hyperspace is competitive in extended, then why have two formats?

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5 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

Bold: what?

If hyperspace is competitive in extended, then why have two formats?

So that newer players, who may have a small collection, or don't have access to certain ships, can play without feeling that they are at a disadvantage for not having ship X or upgrade Y.

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3 minutes ago, Porkchop Express said:

So that newer players, who may have a small collection, or don't have access to certain ships, can play without feeling that they are at a disadvantage for not having ship X or upgrade Y.

For resistance and FO to be competitive in extended they need to be balanced against that.  All of their options are available in hyperspace.  So then the original factions need their hyperspace options balanced against extended lists.

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19 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

If hyperspace is competitive in extended, then why have two formats?

It's also about new players only having to learn to play against a limited number of ships, so they only have to remember what 20 ships dials and abilities are, not 50. for example, if they play vs Rebels alot they have 4 ships to figure out how to fly against, not 17 !

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Hyperspace and extended aren't designed to represent different power levels. They represent different levels of options. 

The nature of extended is that there are more options which makes it more likely for some undercosted ships/upgrades/combos to sneak it, but hopefully this is something that is worked out over time with the points changes. 

Ultimately I would prefer to see much hyperspace than extended going forward with a majority of the factions having less available options. 

Edited by asters89

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1 minute ago, asters89 said:

Hyperspace and extended aren't designed to represent different power levels. They represent different levels of options. 

 

Why limit options if the power levels are the same?

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29 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

For resistance and FO to be competitive in extended they need to be balanced against that.  All of their options are available in hyperspace.  So then the original factions need their hyperspace options balanced against extended lists.

A Rebel Hyperspace list finished top of swiss at Toronto System Open.

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32 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

Why limit options if the power levels are the same?

So newer players/players who don't have full 1.0 collections are not required to purchase more ships/conversion kits simply to play at a competitive level (thus encouraging new players to get the game). Also, it allows newer factions (like Resistance/FO, or the Clone Wars factions) to have a competitive factions without having nearly the amount of ships/upgrades that the original three factions have.

Plus, Hyperspace restrictions will be changed every six months, allowing for a new Hyperspace meta to develop in that six months while still having an overall Extended meta that contains more variety.

Edited by Ikka

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31 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

Why limit options if the power levels are the same?

Balance is easier to achieve in a smaller format. While there might be a couple of overpowered ships, pilots and upgrades in Extended, this is also where you're most likely to find the underpowered card as well.

Another reason to have a smaller format is that it's easier for new players to get into. Not because of power levels, but simply because there's less they need to learn. A player coming to the game looking at Extended might be completely overwhelmed by the amount of options available to them, and might run into players with completely unknown cards and combos for a very long time. This is much less likely in a limited format. Most of the Extended ships are also out of production, and might be difficult to obtain for new players.

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As well as all the above reasons, having extended gives ffg a massive amount of data to playtest and balance all the other ships before re-releasing in 2nd edn.  If the formats have different points it will make that much harder to do.  With each new wave more ships will enter hyperspace at a steady rate, hopefully with only minor tweaks being required on points to get balance and most of those would likely be on new releases rather than rereleases.

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2 hours ago, hawk32 said:

If hyperspace is competitive in extended, then why have two formats?

I think you are missing the point of Hyperspace. Hyperspace is only currently what has been released, with every faction limited to 4 ships. In 10 waves time, I dont see this changing, only what ships are available to play.
Scum had Fang, Firespray, TY 1300+escape pod, Modified TIE. Next time it might be 4 different ships, yes technically they had Scum had 5, but whats the point of a YT if you cant take a pod? 

Hyperspace is limited Extended, it breaks up meta, you don't get the same people spamming the same net list over and over and over and over and over and over at local tournaments.
If you like the same Death Match on repeat, awesome for you, but there are a few of us who like to spice things up and change the list from time to time.

It's a thing called fun that we used to play for.

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4 hours ago, hawk32 said:

Should ships have different points for hyperspace and extended?  Does costing FO and Resistance to be competitive in extended make them way under priced in hyperspace?

Do you have 1 or more points to make?

If so, please elaborate.

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Perceived complexity and cost of entry are barriers to new players entering the game. When people see that the Imperials have 22 different ships it gets over whelming, people who are inexperienced also tend to want all the options available because they don't know what the like/dislike and they don't know what works and does not work yet. The hyper space format gives new players an option that says just look at these 4 ships and see what you like. They also only have to worry about their opponent showing up with these other 4 ships. Gives new players a manageable ship pool to have to buy and learn to play and deal with, also lowers cost of entry and ease of entry as they DO NOT have to get a conversion kit and then get on Ebay or Amazon and start hunting for old out of print ships because that is what is kicking their teeth in every time they play. You may not realize it but some of the old stuff is getting hard to find, example go try and find a 1.0 Imperial Veterans kit. Only a couple places still have them and they are up to like $80. Instead of Go buy a conversion kit for $50 and then find your ships for another $10 to $15 per ship if your not looking for the hard to find stuff, its ohh you wanna fly some rebels get 1 X wing and maybe 2 Ys plus a starter kit and have your self a Trench run squad for like $120 or less. Ohh and its all on the wall right over there, no having to go hunt it down on Ebay or Amazon.

 

Give it time, we shall see if they keep hyperspace limited to a 4 ship rotation or if it slowly expands as more stuff is released. If they just keep it to whats been released for 2.0 give it a year and it the difference between extended and hyper will be alot less, and in 2 years you may just see the extended format die because there will be no practical difference any more.

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The difference isn’t balance. It’s perceived complexity. Extended is more complex to learn all the interactions. Hyperspace has less to learn.

Trust me, I’m a Hyperspace skeptic. I’ve mellowed our some but I still enjoy flying my extended ships. But I don’t think that things are imbalanced between extended and Hyperspace. 

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3 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

I think you are missing the point of Hyperspace. Hyperspace is only currently what has been released, with every faction limited to 4 ships. In 10 waves time, I dont see this changing, only what ships are available to play.

Just want to point out that the Hyperspace format is in its infancy...we have no clue what it will look like "in 10 waves time".  Hyperspace right now is only what has been released/re-released - but is that what the format actually is?  You're making predictions that you have no substantial backing for.

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The Resistance and First Order ships are generally correctly pointed for what they do, but both factions only have access to a limited range of ships, pilots, and upgrades.  This in turn means that they are going to struggle against factions that have a broader pool to draw on - there's more potential synergy, and more ability to cover the weaknesses of a particular build if you've got more options to play with.

If you've got four factions with 3-4 ships each (First Order, Resistance, Republic, Seperatist) and then three factions with 14+ ships each (Imperials, Rebels, Scum), it's entirely reasonable to expect the factions with more options to do better.  Hyperspace narrows that gap, and puts everyone on much closer to an even playing field in terms of number of options available.

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4 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

 Hyperspace is only currently what has been released,

No it isn't.  The falcon and striker aren't out yet.  Anyone who wants to play those in hyperspace still has to buy conversion kits.

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I'm genuinely not seeing the point you're trying to get across here. Do we have the data to prove that they're under-costed in Hyperspace?

Two different point values for two different play variants would be confusing AF and I'm glad it's not designed that way.

It sounds like you're frustrated that Hyperspace is a thing. It's not going away, so (if that's not the case, my apologies for the assumption). Personally, I enjoy the list-building challenge of Hyperspace. I have a feeling future versions of Hyperspace will swap out to different/more ships but it'll always have fewer options than Extended. It's an interesting approach to switch up the competitive nature of the game. 

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4 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

Just want to point out that the Hyperspace format is in its infancy...we have no clue what it will look like "in 10 waves time".  Hyperspace right now is only what has been released/re-released - but is that what the format actually is?  You're making predictions that you have no substantial backing for.

That’s why they are called predictions. But time will tell either way. 

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