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5 hours ago, Derrault said:
15 hours ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

 

AT-RT also has speed 2, no surge to defense, and no cover. So it takes more actions to engage and suffers more incoming damage to impact weapon

But no surge defence dice and no cover as very clearly shown makes very little difference to the defence of the cheap AtRt when compared to the T47 as shown perfectly by my math.

It takes longer to kill 2 AtRt with no cover than it does to kill 1 T47, the AtRt not only are cheaper but their damage output is significantly more.

You are saying how such a big advantage it is to have 1 activation with a big attack pool, but did you actually freaking look at the maths the T47 damage output is only very slightly better than a single AtRt with rotary, A SINGLE ATRT FOR 1/2 The POINTS and 2 AtRt totally eclipse it.

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4 hours ago, colki said:

Both things can exist at once!

I'm actually pretty sure this is a little bit of the design philosophy with the T-47 and some of the upgrades. You can't "Mathhammer" a full pivot or the perfectly timed speed adjustment from Wedge or Ryder, because those are like, in the moment choices of positioning. They are a controlled spontaneity, their usefulness doesn't exist until you're on the board and like 2-3 turns in. But that doesn't mean that I'm sure people run (or will run) them just so they can get a really fun turn where they do a sick u-turn, or drop speed into a tight turn or whatever. 

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@Senjius

"Is this for real? Cover 1 or 2 when an entire unit of stormies shoots at you? It does not save your metal crap one bit. 

4 Stormies+DLT+Aim = 4 white dice+2 red dice = 1 hit from white dice, 1.5 hits from red dice, 0.5 crits from white dice and 0.125crits from red dice in the first throw. 

Then you throw again and get 0.625 hits from white dice and 0.3125 crits from white dice. Add up 0.046875 crits from red dice and 0.28125hits. 

That is a total of 3.40625 hits and 0.984375 crits from a 68 points corps unit. The cover does not matter at all. Even if the stormies cannot aim, cover 1 does not matter and cover 2 does not matter much. In the case we are working with, that means 2 crits / unit of stormies shooting at it. So yes, the T47 is not awesome at all. For the points it cost you can have 2,57 units of stormies shooting it down hard. And that is not counting that T47 is preventing you from taking more activations. 

What about the T47 shooting back? Well, you have 3 black dice and 3 red dice. With an aim token that means: 

0.375 crits from red and 0.375 crits from black and 1.125 hits from black and 1.875 from red. Total in the first roll: 3 hits+0.75 crits. 

Second roll:  0.09375 crits and 0.46875 hits from red dice and 0.15625 crits and 0.46875 hits from black dice. Total in the second roll: 0.9375 hits and 0.25 crits. 

Total roll: 1 crit and 4 hits. After cover and saves you have 1.5 dead stormtroopers. 

So no. The T47 is not worth it. Yes, it is faster but it is worse to gain victory points. And due to its compulsory move the enemy can move towards it and see it pass through them with no possibility of retaliation. 

Is it unplayable? No. Is it competitive? Again, no."

The DLT's 2 red dice each average a hit 6/8 and crit 1/8; that's 1.5 hits and .25 crits
the trooper's 4 white dice each average a hit 2/8 and crit 1/8; that's 1 hit, .5 crits

With those averages it means that there's an average of .25 red dice to re-roll and 2.5 white dice (2.75 dice on average, so a little less than the value provided by precise 1)

The 1/4 of a red die provides +.1875 hit, +.03125 crit
the 2.5 white dice provide +.625 hit, +.3125 crit

total of +.8125 hit , +.3437 crit (1.1562 combined)

Combined with pre-reroll averages is: 3.3125 hit, 1.0937 crit (4.4062 combined)

Here's the thing. That's the case if the unit activates and fires before being fired on (no suppression), and is already within range 3, not having had to move.

If that unit activates at range 4 (aka, just the DLT) it averages 1.5 hits (-1 from cover) for .5 hits converted to crits (.75 total) which is downgraded into .5 damage after the save. Not great, without any other target that's just a big waste of a round.

If that unit activates before being fired on and moves into range 3, or is in range three and suppressed, it can't aim (ave: 1.16 from 4 troopers + 1 dlt)

That's a mere 2.98 damage average from 2.57units of stormtroopers (not that you can have a part of a unit fire, unless we're assuming it got shredded, which is a safe assumption if it's in range), 3.48 from 3 units, units which won't get to activate until AFTER two other units from the 47's side get to go...meaning they probably are going to get hit if actually in range themselves.

What's the net outcome from just the 3 units of stormtroopers + DLT (204 points) vs the T-47 (175, or 195 if you add the ground buzzer...and you should, it's 20 points for 4 black dice, that's twice as efficient as adding 2 rebel troopers, and FAR more resilient to damage; either way, still cheaper than the units whose entire turn is being devoted to attacking it)?

An average of 3 dead troopers, worth 33 points, degrading future average output by 1.125 (ave of .75 hit, .375 crit)...in return they dealt 3.48 damage reducing future output by 0. (With speed 3 on a heavy base and the T-47's height, it's almost always going to be better to move, negating cover through advantageous positioning and fire, rather than aim to re-roll 2 dice which, at best, only have a 75% chance to get a hit each). Only if it's impossible to get around the cover...and with 2 speed 3 moves on a heavy base, that's just silly... is aim a good idea on the 47.

Next round? Those 3 units deal 1 + 1.083 + 1.16 (3.243); still not enough. And just from the 47 suffer another 3 wounds (2 front, 1 back) (enough to reduce one unit to near zero efficacy, as only the leader will remain). That's not including the damage almost certainly being dealt by the other units in that part of the map.

The purpose of the 47s (and any other vehicle) are generally not to gain VPs, like the turrets it's to deny the opponent VP's or soften their VP gathering units up so they can't stand up to yours. The 47s are there to run down wounded units that are too slow to get away.

 

The AT-RT, by comparison comes with a number of deficiencies in the same role:
Slower (Speed 2, no compulsory move, smaller base; this leads to an inability to dip in and out of danger, or simply avoid a close combat assault by impact grenades, for example)
Less able to negate cover through repositioning (Shorter point of view, Slower)
Lesser ability to shrug off damage from even a small number of attacks, especially those with high impact (an HH-12 shot alone, for example, deals 1.5625 wounds to the AT-RT; only 0.583 wounds to the T-47; in conjunction with a squad it fares even better because of the additional impact conversion; 3.125 wounds to the RT, 1.83 to the T-47, nearly double the damage to the RT)
Worse dice in all cases (5x black dice = .875 damage against that target in cover that the RT couldn't maneuver around...because it's slow; which is the same as the T-47...if it failed, somehow, against all odds, to simply waltz around the cover, which put its single attack main cannon output at more than double the RT's vs cover); 

@DarkTrooperZero
"Test 2 AtSt with 88 Blaster 

Will average 2.3 damage versus T47, average 2.1 turns to cripple and 3 to destroy 

Will average 3.5 damage versus AtRt, average 1.1 turns to cripple and 1.7 to destroy 

Therefor 2xAtRt average 3.4 turns to destroy both"

1) A crippled RT might as well not exist, it won't be doing much for the rest of the game, and at 3.5 'average' damage, you're much closer to crippling one each turn.
2) The 47 is fast enough that the ST might not get more than a single shot, if that depending on terrain, before the 47 outmaneuvers it and the ST never gets another shot (remember, pivot is only 90 degrees) RTs have no such luck, they're too fragile to allow even one shot.

@Senjuis
"As I have shown you via Math, 5 stormtroopers ignore your cover."

No. You've demonstrated that on average the cover won't alter the outcome substantially for a fresh unsuppressed unit using a DLT at ideal range.

For DLT units at max range, wounded units, and on units running more impact, it makes a substantial difference.

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4 hours ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

But no surge defence dice and no cover as very clearly shown makes very little difference to the defence of the cheap AtRt when compared to the T47 as shown perfectly by my math.

It takes longer to kill 2 AtRt with no cover than it does to kill 1 T47, the AtRt not only are cheaper but their damage output is significantly more.

You are saying how such a big advantage it is to have 1 activation with a big attack pool, but did you actually freaking look at the maths the T47 damage output is only very slightly better than a single AtRt with rotary, A SINGLE ATRT FOR 1/2 The POINTS and 2 AtRt totally eclipse it.

Well that’s just demonstrably false.

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@Derrault

You're implying that you can consistently shoot the same squads with the main gun and rotary. That says to me you've never ran this thing. Speed three compulsory alone takes you almost two range bands forward. At best, you're spreading the damage around little by little. Heck you can't even shoot the same squad two rounds in a row with the main gun without previously using a pivot action.

You've also claimed that your plan is to keep this near to your corp so the opponent shoots it rather than the squishier troopers. This means two things: 1) it's not doing much damage over the course of the game as it's likely only going to get it's first shot in during round 3 and only with the main gun for the round of shooting with it. 2) Your opponents either aren't experienced enough or bright enough to realize this ploy and simply ignore the 47s mediocre damage output that it isn't utilizing for almost half the game.

Killing almost dead units is a job for sniper teams as they can easily pick off a unit leader safely, and you can have 3 of those teams for less than the base cost of the 47. If you already have 3 teams, then why are you devoting almost half your list to killing almost dead units by picking up a 47?

The RT by comparison of what you were already claiming to use the 47 will keep pace with the bulk of the force, which can be seen as good or bad, and give units behind them light cover on the move. If you've actually been playing rebels, you should know how valuable having that around is as all your corp get torn to shreds in the open. The rotary gun itself deals 1.25 damage through any cover (surge to crit), not the .875 that you claimed which would be wrong anyway as it averages 3.125 and heavy cover brings it to 1.125 . Walking into an HH-12 is a stupid mistake already and the fact that you still think it happens regularly in games demonstrates your lack of in game knowledge. More so you can actually force your opponent to shoot at it if it has the flamethrower on it as that weapon is something you can't ignore; providing the benefit that you claim the 47 should have, but doesn't.

Every claim you have made on every thread regarding these issues is only from the math. That's only half the story, the other half is actually putting the unit into action. The tactical reason why you claim to bring it is already filled by other, cheaper units. So I ask you, genuinely, what is this unit capable of doing with how you plan on using it that a combination of units at equal or lower cost can't do?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Well that’s just demonstrably false.

How, maths clearly shows the T47 is neither tough or has high damage 

Here it is again, why can't you understand the T47 has bugger all damage 

The T47 for 175 pulling 1.87 storm trooper kills

A AtRt with rotary cost 85 points and kills 1.56 storms 

2 AtRt for 170 will kill 3.12 storms

 

 

 

Edited by DarkTrooperZero

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31 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

@Derrault

You're implying that you can consistently shoot the same squads with the main gun and rotary. That says to me you've never ran this thing. Speed three compulsory alone takes you almost two range bands forward. At best, you're spreading the damage around little by little. Heck you can't even shoot the same squad two rounds in a row with the main gun without previously using a pivot action.

You've also claimed that your plan is to keep this near to your corp so the opponent shoots it rather than the squishier troopers. This means two things: 1) it's not doing much damage over the course of the game as it's likely only going to get it's first shot in during round 3 and only with the main gun for the round of shooting with it. 2) Your opponents either aren't experienced enough or bright enough to realize this ploy and simply ignore the 47s mediocre damage output that it isn't utilizing for almost half the game.

Killing almost dead units is a job for sniper teams as they can easily pick off a unit leader safely, and you can have 3 of those teams for less than the base cost of the 47. If you already have 3 teams, then why are you devoting almost half your list to killing almost dead units by picking up a 47?

The RT by comparison of what you were already claiming to use the 47 will keep pace with the bulk of the force, which can be seen as good or bad, and give units behind them light cover on the move. If you've actually been playing rebels, you should know how valuable having that around is as all your corp get torn to shreds in the open. The rotary gun itself deals 1.25 damage through any cover (surge to crit), not the .875 that you claimed which would be wrong anyway as it averages 3.125 and heavy cover brings it to 1.125 . Walking into an HH-12 is a stupid mistake already and the fact that you still think it happens regularly in games demonstrates your lack of in game knowledge. More so you can actually force your opponent to shoot at it if it has the flamethrower on it as that weapon is something you can't ignore; providing the benefit that you claim the 47 should have, but doesn't.

Every claim you have made on every thread regarding these issues is only from the math. That's only half the story, the other half is actually putting the unit into action. The tactical reason why you claim to bring it is already filled by other, cheaper units. So I ask you, genuinely, what is this unit capable of doing with how you plan on using it that a combination of units at equal or lower cost can't do?

Correct regarding the pivot; in general the best use is strafing across several units, first firing the main cannon, then (the next turn, assuming the target wasn’t destroyed outright or damaged to the point it’s no threat to anything (ie 4 wounds on a no frills DLT squad) following up with the buzzer.

If you recall, I tested two, against the LVO winning build, flying in tandem. If the first one doesn’t clear cut a squad (and, again, entirely possible to do), the second usually does. Trooper units are generally neutralized once they’re down to 1-2 minis.

Snipers are fine as far as they go, but also entirely dependent on clear lines of sight, and not getting countersniped/hit by bombardments. 

Re: Rotary damage, it’s wounds. (assuming the target is Imperials; if it’s a mirror match up, the 47 is going to murder Rebels who have a dearth of impact weapons). Sorry if it wasn’t obvious that was wounds, not simply hits/crits.

I don’t think there are many HH-12s getting run, I just know based on the math if there is a better than even chance armor exists, the HH-12 should be fielded. As I said, who cares if it has a Flamethrower? It won’t survive the two rounds it needs to get into range 1, a single HH-12 easily smokes an RT. Trying to charge one, with a flamer is a dumb move. 

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2 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Correct regarding the pivot; in general the best use is strafing across several units, first firing the main cannon, then (the next turn, assuming the target wasn’t destroyed outright or damaged to the point it’s no threat to anything (ie 4 wounds on a no frills DLT squad) following up with the buzzer.

If you recall, I tested two, against the LVO winning build, flying in tandem. If the first one doesn’t clear cut a squad (and, again, entirely possible to do), the second usually does. Trooper units are generally neutralized once they’re down to 1-2 minis.

Snipers are fine as far as they go, but also entirely dependent on clear lines of sight, and not getting countersniped/hit by bombardments. 

Re: Rotary damage, it’s wounds. (assuming the target is Imperials; if it’s a mirror match up, the 47 is going to murder Rebels who have a dearth of impact weapons). Sorry if it wasn’t obvious that was wounds, not simply hits/crits.

I don’t think there are many HH-12s getting run, I just know based on the math if there is a better than even chance armor exists, the HH-12 should be fielded. As I said, who cares if it has a Flamethrower? It won’t survive the two rounds it needs to get into range 1, a single HH-12 easily smokes an RT. Trying to charge one, with a flamer is a dumb move. 

The problem with that is that this tactic only works when the enemy is spaced out well, but it isn't ideal later in the game where you said the 47 was cleaning up units. Troopers are likely to have suppression on them already if the 47 is activating late in the round and that is going to hurt your damage output. It's possible (read probably) that you can't get a unit in range of the main gun out of cover after the compulsory and forces you to try to get a unit in range, but that likely is sacrificing the shot from the buzzer.

I don't remember you saying this at all. I also doubt it did as well as you claim, as it's unlikely one of those survived beyond round 3 (if not 2) between maximum firepower and the backpack rocket. Also Boba does fairly well against them. Don't bring up possibilities again, as it's also possible for the Z-6 alone to wipe a 6 stormtrooper squad out.

The 47, again, is just as vulnerable to maximum firepower if not even more. 47 takes 2 damage on average after defense save without an aim from the attack. Boba's rocket is even more dangerous if he can also get a rifle shot, which isn't difficult, averaging just under 3.25 damage on that hit. From there, even you've shown it's not difficult to put the two damage on from random DLT squads who don't have anything else to shoot at. Sure you've got two of them, but they still have underwhelming damage and one is dead from the trip over alone. Furthermore, maximum firepower isn't great against sniper teams to begin with so it's not something I worry too much about.

It also seems like that list of yours is going to be light on corp and spec ops. You're devoting a minimum of 350 to a max of 420 and given your fondness for the buzzer I'm guessing they're at least 390 together. After commander choice, provided it wasn't a generic, you don't have much to spend for getting a ground force capable of actually dealing enough damage for your 47s to finish off units. I don't imagine you're running more than 4 corp unless they're naked and maybe a sniper team or two. Wookies will set you back too much to use at that point so I doubt that they were a part of the list.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by the rotary damage. Walls of math like that have a tendency to lose their value if you get lost reading it.

The RT can easily last first that HH-12 squad and get into firing range of the flamethrower. I've demonstrated that before and I don't feel like doing it again. So long as you go after the HH-12, and you're using Han with HQ Uplink it's doable. HH-12 also can't move and shoot the RT so as long as you're smart enough to stay out of it's line of fire until it goes, you can move in and still try to get a first move without Han but it'll be a tie best case (until Krennic).

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39 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

 The problem with that is that this tactic only works when the enemy is spaced out well, but it isn't ideal later in the game where you said the 47 was cleaning up units. Troopers are likely to have suppression on them already if the 47 is activating late in the round and that is going to hurt your damage output. It's possible (read probably) that you can't get a unit in range of the main gun out of cover after the compulsory and forces you to try to get a unit in range, but that likely is sacrificing the shot from the buzzer.

I don't remember you saying this at all. I also doubt it did as well as you claim, as it's unlikely one of those survived beyond round 3 (if not 2) between maximum firepower and the backpack rocket. Also Boba does fairly well against them. Don't bring up possibilities again, as it's also possible for the Z-6 alone to wipe a 6 stormtrooper squad out.

The 47, again, is just as vulnerable to maximum firepower if not even more. 47 takes 2 damage on average after defense save without an aim from the attack. Boba's rocket is even more dangerous if he can also get a rifle shot, which isn't difficult, averaging just under 3.25 damage on that hit. From there, even you've shown it's not difficult to put the two damage on from random DLT squads who don't have anything else to shoot at. Sure you've got two of them, but they still have underwhelming damage and one is dead from the trip over alone. Furthermore, maximum firepower isn't great against sniper teams to begin with so it's not something I worry too much about.

It also seems like that list of yours is going to be light on corp and spec ops. You're devoting a minimum of 350 to a max of 420 and given your fondness for the buzzer I'm guessing they're at least 390 together. After commander choice, provided it wasn't a generic, you don't have much to spend for getting a ground force capable of actually dealing enough damage for your 47s to finish off units. I don't imagine you're running more than 4 corp unless they're naked and maybe a sniper team or two. Wookies will set you back too much to use at that point so I doubt that they were a part of the list.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by the rotary damage. Walls of math like that have a tendency to lose their value if you get lost reading it.

The RT can easily last first that HH-12 squad and get into firing range of the flamethrower. I've demonstrated that before and I don't feel like doing it again. So long as you go after the HH-12, and you're using Han with HQ Uplink it's doable. HH-12 also can't move and shoot the RT so as long as you're smart enough to stay out of it's line of fire until it goes, you can move in and still try to get a first move without Han but it'll be a tie best case (until Krennic).

With the 47 you run Coordinated Bombardment, Leia has Sharpshooter 2, negating any sniper cover, and the snipers have a white die, giving a more than reasonable chance of wiping them right away (provided she can achieve line of sight of course). If not, soften up the corps units the 47 is likely to target first, making it very likely they’ll be neutralized turns 1-2.

Re: troopers suppression, do you mean the targets of the 47? If so, that’s fine, really, especially if they haven’t activated, because then they might panic (which is nearly as good as them being dead that round).

Yeah Boba’s one off rocket is fine, although it does require nominating him in the sweet spot for a range 2 attack; and he usually gets paired with Veers because the rest of the list is normally devoted to corps and special forces, the nearly homogenous LVO lists bear this out. And it’s devoting another 140+ points in lieu of going after a bounty.

I was running 3 corps, Leia, and Chewbacca actually. Chewie functions as a bodyguard to absorb hits off those corps and Leia, keeping them at peak efficiency. The 47s were ground buzzers with comm jammers to prevent orders being delivered once they begin strafing, and one with wedge (although I’d certainly consider putting the +1 cover pilot on them) Leia runs with Improvised Orders to fish out those heavy tokens if needed (with fewer total units it’s a very reasonable chance to pull one of two heavies if early activation is needed, plus it works for any other unit in a pinch).

True enough the first/last ploy is possible what, once? And it only works if it can close range to just outside 2 against a single launcher, with two in staggered formation one will get a shot off, a shot that is likely to cripple the RT. At that point it’s a question of: is it worth rushing at 78 points to maybe lose 75? Probably? Maybe? (For what it’s worth, I’d want to run double HH-12s against any list with a vehicle, they are well worth the 20 point difference from two DLTs.)

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4 minutes ago, Derrault said:

With the 47 you run Coordinated Bombardment, Leia has Sharpshooter 2, negating any sniper cover, and the snipers have a white die, giving a more than reasonable chance of wiping them right away (provided she can achieve line of sight of course). If not, soften up the corps units the 47 is likely to target first, making it very likely they’ll be neutralized turns 1-2.

Re: troopers suppression, do you mean the targets of the 47? If so, that’s fine, really, especially if they haven’t activated, because then they might panic (which is nearly as good as them being dead that round).

Yeah Boba’s one off rocket is fine, although it does require nominating him in the sweet spot for a range 2 attack; and he usually gets paired with Veers because the rest of the list is normally devoted to corps and special forces, the nearly homogenous LVO lists bear this out. And it’s devoting another 140+ points in lieu of going after a bounty.

I was running 3 corps, Leia, and Chewbacca actually. Chewie functions as a bodyguard to absorb hits off those corps and Leia, keeping them at peak efficiency. The 47s were ground buzzers with comm jammers to prevent orders being delivered once they begin strafing, and one with wedge (although I’d certainly consider putting the +1 cover pilot on them) Leia runs with Improvised Orders to fish out those heavy tokens if needed (with fewer total units it’s a very reasonable chance to pull one of two heavies if early activation is needed, plus it works for any other unit in a pinch).

True enough the first/last ploy is possible what, once? And it only works if it can close range to just outside 2 against a single launcher, with two in staggered formation one will get a shot off, a shot that is likely to cripple the RT. At that point it’s a question of: is it worth rushing at 78 points to maybe lose 75? Probably? Maybe? (For what it’s worth, I’d want to run double HH-12s against any list with a vehicle, they are well worth the 20 point difference from two DLTs.)

It's a rare exception that you can get both members of a sniper team with one coordinated bombardment. Most players wised up to that very quickly and started putting the other mini in a place that isn't going to be in line of sight of anything. Sure you could then have a 47 clean the kill at that point, but so could a friendly sniper team. Coordinated bombardment is why rebels tend to win those initial sniper duels.

I did, however for them to panic easily the enemy commander has to be out of range of the courage bubble or can't have an officer in the squad.

Boba's rocket card is range 3-4 so he can pair it with his rifle. Range 2 isn't required. I've never had a bounty collected on me before and from what I've seen on this forum, it's rare that it happens anyway. Bounty is more of a fear tactic than something most players actually go for, unless the target overextends. Then Boba is great for getting the kill. Bossk seems to be the opposite and can readily snipe off a target so that'll be an interesting dynamic.

Good use of Chewie, but with that few of units you're going to have a hard time holding objectives after he goes down. The top list also included a group of stacked IRG and if they get in melee you're gonna lose units as you can't guardian melee attacks away.

We've gone over this before. At most you've created a stand off where the HH-12 unit(s) can't advance to take the shot without putting themselves at risk of getting rushed before they go again and the RT can't advance into multiple HH-12s. This is a victory for the RT though as it's holding up multiple corp units without doing anything. If armor is common in your area then sure throw in a couple of them, but you can't guarantee that you'll see armor in any single game. It's why the DLT is still the most common choice because it's an okay weapon in every circumstance rather than a great weapon against two units and marginally better than the DLT in others provided you aren't moving.

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For Derrault (excuse my english if it is not perfect):

My math takes into account how many hits/crits get each type of dice but thanks (I am at work so I cannot check it back right now but i am almost sure I take it into account).

In any way, you always put your compulsory move as a good thing when it is always not the case. It maybe easy to coordinate with your troops but not so much with the enemy who can go towards the T47 and getting away from your 1-3 range troopers (or the other way around). And if you do not use your T47 as a flanker it is even more complicated to mantain the same range as your troopers. And if you do not coordinate perfectly you are going to be focused fire by a much easier to coordinate infantry army.

And again, it appears to you that it is easy for the T47 to avoid enemy cover with just a "double move". That is just wrong. Most cases, scenery is not so easy to avoid because there is a lot of area cover and the barricades from the game are not perpendicular to the floor so you cannot avoid it either except from right behind the unit (and in that case it is a T-47 vs an entire army). If that is not enough, it has been pointed out to you that even supression tokens are capable or reducing your firepower to a little nuisance.

Another point, I am sorry but no, putting 2 suppression tokens in one unit is not "as good as dead for that turn" because we have commanders for that and most of the used ones have inspire, so I do not care so much for being a bit suppressed because most times, when the unit activates is going to aim and shoot (inspire, success in rally phase or aim from Veers/Officer).  

So I am sorry but no, I do not care much for a 175 miniature which kills 1.5 stormtrooper/turn and is not capable of mantaining objectives properly. And if you pay for the buzzer... well. Good luck with it because a lot of turns you are not going to be capable of using it. Range 2 rear only with a compulsory move??? Difficult to use without compromising your movement.

Finally, I recommend to everybody to give the T47 a try because it is a funny unit to use but it is difficult to read with a straight face that it is a competitive unit because it is not (they are not trying to fix it for nothing).

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Posted (edited)

In how far is this discussion related to the topic? 

It is really annoying and has nothing to do with the live stream, there are enough threads where this could be "discussed"

Edited by Robeck

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7 hours ago, Jabby said:

Discussing the airspeeder again?

“I cannot believe we’re back here again” 

                                                     - Ki-Adi Mundi, Clone Wars Season 2

At this point, I tend to just scroll through the massive wall of text posts, and only read short ones, hoping they're about something other than MathLegion/the T-47. 

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2 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

At this point, I tend to just scroll through the massive wall of text posts, and only read short ones, hoping they're about something other than MathLegion/the T-47. 

Whenever I see posts like this I just skip to the end so it doesn’t show up in bold on the thread lists. Oh, and I make a comment like the one I did earlier 

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I really hope they do more live streams like this later in the year. Being able to pause between rounds to answer questions and clarify rules is great and seeing some new units in play builds the anticipation for them :)

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Just now, DwainDibbly said:

I really hope they do more live streams like this later in the year. Being able to pause between rounds to answer questions and clarify rules is great and seeing some new units in play builds the anticipation for them :)

This gotta be the first non-airspeeder discussion post for the last 2 pages

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1 hour ago, DwainDibbly said:

I really hope they do more live streams like this later in the year. Being able to pause between rounds to answer questions and clarify rules is great and seeing some new units in play builds the anticipation for them :)

Agreed. I'd really like to see another one before the Clone Wars release to get a feeling for the new factions. 

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1 hour ago, DwainDibbly said:

I really hope they do more live streams like this later in the year. Being able to pause between rounds to answer questions and clarify rules is great and seeing some new units in play builds the anticipation for them :)

Agreed, see below.

11 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Agreed. I'd really like to see another one before the Clone Wars release to get a feeling for the new factions. 

Absolutely.  Doing this again for the Clone Wars would be a great way of showing off the new units, commanders, abilities, cards, etc.  Whereas the new stuff was in the 4-5 new units, in the Clone Wars EVERYTHING would be new and interesting. 

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7 hours ago, Senjius said:

For Derrault (excuse my english if it is not perfect):

My math takes into account how many hits/crits get each type of dice but thanks (I am at work so I cannot check it back right now but i am almost sure I take it into account).

In any way, you always put your compulsory move as a good thing when it is always not the case. It maybe easy to coordinate with your troops but not so much with the enemy who can go towards the T47 and getting away from your 1-3 range troopers (or the other way around). And if you do not use your T47 as a flanker it is even more complicated to mantain the same range as your troopers. And if you do not coordinate perfectly you are going to be focused fire by a much easier to coordinate infantry army.

And again, it appears to you that it is easy for the T47 to avoid enemy cover with just a "double move". That is just wrong. Most cases, scenery is not so easy to avoid because there is a lot of area cover and the barricades from the game are not perpendicular to the floor so you cannot avoid it either except from right behind the unit (and in that case it is a T-47 vs an entire army). If that is not enough, it has been pointed out to you that even supression tokens are capable or reducing your firepower to a little nuisance.

Another point, I am sorry but no, putting 2 suppression tokens in one unit is not "as good as dead for that turn" because we have commanders for that and most of the used ones have inspire, so I do not care so much for being a bit suppressed because most times, when the unit activates is going to aim and shoot (inspire, success in rally phase or aim from Veers/Officer).  

So I am sorry but no, I do not care much for a 175 miniature which kills 1.5 stormtrooper/turn and is not capable of mantaining objectives properly. And if you pay for the buzzer... well. Good luck with it because a lot of turns you are not going to be capable of using it. Range 2 rear only with a compulsory move??? Difficult to use without compromising your movement.

Finally, I recommend to everybody to give the T47 a try because it is a funny unit to use but it is difficult to read with a straight face that it is a competitive unit because it is not (they are not trying to fix it for nothing).

The math error was applying the aim token universally. It only has value on misses (ie 5/8 results on a white die, 1/8 results on the red die).

Compulsory move is free movement that lets the 47 apply suppression by landing on infantry. That is an unequivocally good thing.

Maintaining cohesion with the rest of the army is simple planning. Ditto using the tail gun.

Winning requires objectives, which in most cases are spread across the table, the 47 is able to swamp disconnected units and very quickly cross to engage the remaining army, it’s the exact same role as the Speeder Bikes for the Empire, except the 47 is much more survivable. Infantry are too slow to criss cross where needed, they pretty much have to be deployed nearby, or not bother capturing an objective. 

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