Hand to hand combat and ballistic shooting in it

[vrosty 0]

Hi there!

I have been reading the topics in rogue trader's forum trying to find and explanation for certain rules. If i missed them sorry.

The question is this:

Can someone fire both pistols in full/semi auto modes engaged in hand to hand combat? It seems yes. If this is true is not terrifyingly overwhelming?

An example: 1 rank arch militant can make 12 posible impacts with two 6 shoot firing pistols having an starting 50 Bs and 20 bonus for full auto. a total 70%, with motion detector 80% and i will left other bonuses apart like rogue traders +10%bonus ...

The other character is a melee wielder. I have read in DH forum reasons about the melee damaging capacity, but one must be several ranks professional to have swift or even better lighting attack. Making 3 attacks and a possible 4th with the offhand weapon.

In my humble opinion, the first one with only 500 starting xps has higher % of hitting, and its highly possible to hit several times. The other has spent thousands of xps in improving his WS and in the expensive talents to attack three times. Can be this possible and just?

Another question, why does anyone expend XPs in WS if you can shoot ranged and hit in melee with BS if you wield a pistol?  With Ws you can only hit in melee, but with BS you have the oportunity to use it always. Maximicing the XPs in only this stat.

I know that te flavour and the common sense must prevail over all this questions but with certain players its no way to argue about common sense.

Thats for helping me.

[zero26 0]

Melee weapons might be your last resort. You might be able to spend 12 bullets in one round to take one person down in melee, but what about the ones that follow? What when your weapon jams or you run out of ammo? Draw your trusty melee weapon or worrying about changing clips in melee combat?

And certain characters might be able to get a superior chance to parry with swords and high weapon skill compared to agility based dodge.

Ranged weapons are as you say a weapon of choice, but lacking melee skills could have dire consequences. 

[Graspar 1]

"Hi there!

I have been reading the topics in rogue trader's forum trying to find and explanation for certain rules. If i missed them sorry.

The question is this:

Can someone fire both pistols in full/semi auto modes engaged in hand to hand combat? It seems yes. If this is true is not terrifyingly overwhelming?"

An example: 1 rank arch militant can make 12 posible impacts with two 6 shoot firing pistols having an starting 50 Bs and 20 bonus for full auto. a total 70%, with motion detector 80% and i will left other bonuses apart like rogue traders +10%bonus ...

The other character is a melee wielder. I have read in DH forum reasons about the melee damaging capacity, but one must be several ranks professional to have swift or even better lighting attack. Making 3 attacks and a possible 4th with the offhand weapon.

In my humble opinion, the first one with only 500 starting xps has higher % of hitting, and its highly possible to hit several times. The other has spent thousands of xps in improving his WS and in the expensive talents to attack three times. Can be this possible and just?

Another question, why does anyone expend XPs in WS if you can shoot ranged and hit in melee with BS if you wield a pistol? With Ws you can only hit in melee, but with BS you have the oportunity to use it always. Maximicing the XPs in only this stat.

I know that te flavour and the common sense must prevail over all this questions but with certain players its no way to argue about common sense.

Thats for helping me."

Dual wielding autopistols is a bit more tricky than that. You'd need lots of talents supporting that style of combat.
For the arch militant that would be:
Ambridextrous (rank 1 200 xp)
Two weapon wielder (ballistic) (rank 2 200 xp)
Gunslinger (rank 5 500 xp)

And the two motion predictors are both very rare, about the same as a powerfist so any comparison WITH the targeters would be rather... unfavourable for the arch militant
So let's take a rogue trader at rank 2 against your arch militant starting armour 5, TB 3 (average).
Starting armour 6, TB 3, SB 3 (average) WS 50 (same as arch militants BS) Two weapon wielder melee and ambidextrous, two powerswords.
You do two attacks at bs 60, he does two attacks at ws 40. Assume you both roll 01 at both your attack rolls. That's 12 hits for you, anythign below 10 damage does nothing, so you'll get nine hits that do nothing, the rest of them will do (barring RF) one or two or three points of damage. The rouge trader on the other hand will have two hits that does 1d0+8 pen 5. After armour and TB that still leaves 1d0+5 damage PER HIT.

So autopistols are no good, with bolt or plasma it get's a little less one sided, but they still don't do as much damage (barring maximal which can both backfire and only works once every two rounds), you've given up the massive RoF and there are better weapons for melee characters as well. Additionally there are a number of special attacks in melee that uses opposed WS, like feint and disarm. Furthermore, pistols suffer from jams and need frequent reloading.

All in all, a properly built melee specialist would dominate any pistol specialist in close combat, just as it should be. 

[vrosty 0]

Interesting answers, i agree with them. Thanks for answering.

The problem is that its very easy to obtain the motion predictor. One item +30 bonus to aquisition, its very rare as you say but a starting group can obtain it by the first acquisition test.

My archmilitant has taken a power armor as his starting item of choice. May be i missunderstood the rule, but in addition to the starting package one can chose and item of his choice.

The talents you are showing, ambidextrous... are for lessening the penalties. Good, but the full auto burst eliminates them with its +20 bonus. main hand full burst with 0 penalty and the offhand -20% but this is a rank 1 archmilitant making 12 shoots with the pistol, or if you prefer, with bolt pistols 4 shoots in semi of greater damage.

The rogue trader must get to the archmilitant, and even after engaging in hth combat, the archmilitant will shoot 4 bolter shells with awesome 1d10 + 5 pen 4 damage of tearing type. The rogue trader needs to have lighting attack to match this...

500 XPS archmilitant or void master or whatever BS class against thousands Xps WS class.

Does anyone know if engaged in melee one can make a multiple attack with both bolt pistols and with each making a semi auto burst?

My player told me that multiple attack grants you "attacks" and semi burst is an attack. But i have been telling them that semi auto or full auto are full round attacks of the semitype ranged. So i banned it in melee combat. What do you both think about it?

Thanks men for answering.

[Graspar 1]

Interesting answers, i agree with them. Thanks for answering.

The problem is that its very easy to obtain the motion predictor. One item +30 bonus to aquisition, its very rare as you say but a starting group can obtain it by the first acquisition test.

 

Well, yes. As easy as obtaining a powerfist. 2d10+sbX2 pen 9. So if the arch militant is to be equipped with 2x very rare combat gear for ranged combat the melee specialist should get the same  benefit. Two predictors at very rare plus the actual pistols. I'd be inclined to get a powerfist and best quality muscle grafts for the melee specialist, adding 4x sb to 2d10 pen9 damage. High quality gear should be matched against high quality gear.

My archmilitant has taken a power armor as his starting item of choice. May be i missunderstood the rule, but in addition to the starting package one can chose and item of his choice.

More or less, yeah.

The talents you are showing, ambidextrous... are for lessening the penalties. Good, but the full auto burst eliminates them with its +20 bonus. main hand full burst with 0 penalty and the offhand -20% but this is a rank 1 archmilitant making 12 shoots with the pistol, or if you prefer, with bolt pistols 4 shoots in semi of greater damage.

Not the two weapon wielder talent, it's to enables dual use of pistols. So rank 1 arch militant can fire one pistol at a time, not both in the same round.

The rogue trader must get to the archmilitant, and even after engaging in hth combat, the archmilitant will shoot 4 bolter shells with awesome 1d10 + 5 pen 4 damage of tearing type. The rogue trader needs to have lighting attack to match this...

True, which is why rogue traders start with a plasma pistol. And so what if the ranged character has the edge in ranged combat, that's only to be expected. That's what running with hard target is for, -40 to bs while he's closing the gap. 

1d10+5 pen4 tearing is NOT awesome compared to melee weapons It's going to hurt more than autopistol, true, but it's a far cry from an omnisian axe or powerfist. Adding your SB to the damage actually does a lot of difference, it takes care of TB soak. You don't really need to match number of possible hits., for one thing dodge can negate more than one bullet while it only negates a single swing of the sword. And it's harder to hit all of the bullets, you need to succeed with 2DoS to get the second one. The melee specialist makes a new roll for every attack. 

And when you need to stop for a reload, he'll keep swinging.

 

500 XPS archmilitant or void master or whatever BS class against thousands Xps WS class.

Yes, and once you're in melee you're going to get disarmed by opposed WS and torn to shreds by powerfists

Does anyone know if engaged in melee one can make a multiple attack with both bolt pistols and with each making a semi auto burst?

My player told me that multiple attack grants you "attacks" and semi burst is an attack. But i have been telling them that semi auto or full auto are full round attacks of the semitype ranged. So i banned it in melee combat. What do you both think about it?

Thanks men for answering.
 

It probably works fine, but RAW states that the multiple attacks action can be used for two semi or full auto attacks in a single round.

 

All in all the best combat character is probably going to be one who has some melee skill as well as ranged combat. Don't forget, one of the main advantages of melee is that it forces people to not use their basic or larger weapons against you. A one trick pony is going to get manouvred outside his comfort zone really quick against a smart opponent.

[Mackenzie 0]

Just to throw my ten pence into this discussion. As a GM I make my PCs use their WS when in hand to hand combat, even if they are using a ranged weapon like a pistol. 

Why? I hear you asking.

In my opinion your Ballistic Skill represents your ability to aim and fire a weapon accurately, using techniques such as steadying your breathing, looking down the sights, etc. Where as if you’re up close and personal with the enemy a lot of those things won't apply. Especially when each time you try to bring your pistol to bear, your opponent attempts to lop your arm off at the elbow with his power sword, for example. So alot of the bonus' you would usually get from shooting at range don't apply, so as you would expect, the opponent who is more experienced with fighting at close quarters gets the upper hand in a close up fight.

We just like the idea that WS represents your ability to fight at close quarters, where as your ballistic skill represents your ability to fight at range.

But I agree with your other comments, yes if that pistol fired on auto hits, then it’s a good deal more damage than the single swing of a chain sword.

Just my thoughts.

 

 

[vrosty 0]

Good afternoon

Good example that of the 2 power fists wielding guy... a dammed ubber killer. I prefer more equilibrate characters, and i agree with you.

But that doesn't make both stats the same worth.

BS: hand to hand + Starship combat + Ranged combat

WS: hand to hand

In a technological world hand to hand is very evitable. I like it as game master because i'm from the old school. But the truth is that the weapons normal range is twice it's range, so a bolter has a functional range without penalties of 180 metres. Like in the tabletop game in a combat you have two or three rounds of ranged combat before reaching hand to hand. Suppresion RULES over these rounds, and burst in my opinion awesome. They enhace by +20% your BS. This means that i can hit if i have 50% BS and my dice roll is 50% with 3 bullets of bolter. Not just only 1. Aand this paying only 4 bullets in exchange. so you can mantain this rate 6 rounds before reloading. If you are wise, you have a bolt pistol, so ju can have 2 pistols and fire them 12 rounds before exausting the anmo, and with the quick draw, you one and ready other in your inventary as free action. With a prepared combat harness. So nearly any suposable combat can be ended without reloading. My players like to make this. They ignore my penalties with full auto burst. And they OWN the game. I have decided to prevent this to eliminate the +20% bonus to bursts. And to fight with pistols in Hand to hand with WS as Mackenzie already said, just to force them in spending XPs in WS too.

The other question is

"My player told me that multiple attack grants you "attacks" and semi burst is an attack. But i have been telling them that semi auto or full auto are full round attacks of the semitype ranged. So i banned it in melee combat. What do you both think about it?

 

Thanks men for answering.
 

It probably works fine, but RAW states that the multiple attacks action can be used for two semi or full auto attacks in a single round."

Then, you can make full or semi auto burst with two weapon fighting engaged in melee????? what about the subtype in the combat chart that states ranged only?

thanks Mackenzie and Graspar for answering. It can be that im misleaded by the chart, or i missed some rules in my reading of the section Playing the game...
 

[zero26 0]

 You definitely need the Two-Weapon wielder talent to use two pistols in the same round. And to do so you would take the Multiple Attacks, Full action. You are allowed to fire your pistols on semi- or full-auto burst. But if you fire both on full-auto you are only allowed to make suppressing fire. And as far as I read the rules you can make semi- or full auto bursts just as well in hand to hand combat. The ranged subtype I think refers to using BS.

And as there is no point in trying to pin someone in melee combat the maximum fire rate would be one pistol on semi- and one on full auto.

[Graspar 1]

You definitely need the Two-Weapon wielder talent to use two pistols in the same round. And to do so you would take the Multiple Attacks, Full action. You are allowed to fire your pistols on semi- or full-auto burst. But if you fire both on full-auto you are only allowed to make suppressing fire.

No, the wording is "when firing a full automatic weapon in each hand, the character may only lay down one area of supressive fire". Theres no mention of firing the weapons on full auto.

I'd interpret that as limiting the number of areas you may supress rather than limiting how you may fire your weapon.

[zero26 0]

 Thanks for clarifying that Grasper. 

[Graspar 1]

 

 

But that doesn't make both stats the same worth.

BS: hand to hand + Starship combat + Ranged combat

WS: hand to hand

Well, you only need one guy for the starship weapons, having the entire group specialise in melee brings up a lot of other problems.

 

In a technological world hand to hand is very evitable. I like it as game master because i'm from the old school. But the truth is that the weapons normal range is twice it's range, so a bolter has a functional range without penalties of 180 metres. Like in the tabletop game in a combat you have two or three rounds of ranged combat before reaching hand to hand. Suppresion RULES over these rounds, and burst in my opinion awesome.

Ranged combat might be very evitable in large open spaces, but what about urban combat? What about indoors even?

And there's no need to actually have small spaces, an ambush works fine for the melee characters. And suppose the enemy has a balanced group, with ranged types laying down supressive fire while the melee guys sneak around to charge from the side or from behind.

All combat is situational, some situations favour ranged combat and some favour melee, in a lot of situations your 180 m normal range bolter is going to be nothing more than a fancy club. Pistols work, yes, but not as well as a decent melee weapon in skilled hands.

 

They enhace by +20% your BS. This means that i can hit if i have 50% BS and my dice roll is 50% with 3 bullets of bolter. Not just only 1. Aand this paying only 4 bullets in exchange. so you can mantain this rate 6 rounds before reloading.

There's also the higher risk of jams and the fact that a full action prevents you from doing anything BUT shooting. No popping in and out of cover for example. But yeah, if the situation supports it  autofire can be brutal.

If you are wise, you have a bolt pistol, so ju can have 2 pistols and fire them 12 rounds before exausting the anmo, and with the quick draw, you one and ready other in your inventary as free action. With a prepared combat harness. So nearly any suposable combat can be ended without reloading. My players like to make this. They ignore my penalties with full auto burst. And they OWN the game. I have decided to prevent this to eliminate the +20% bonus to bursts. And to fight with pistols in Hand to hand with WS as Mackenzie already said, just to force them in spending XPs in WS too.

 

Don't force your players to spend XP in ws by changing the rules, force them by using encounters which are not suited to their chosen style of combat. Like genestealers, it's going to be a lot more fun. 

The other question is

"My player told me that multiple attack grants you "attacks" and semi burst is an attack. But i have been telling them that semi auto or full auto are full round attacks of the semitype ranged. So i banned it in melee combat. What do you both think about it?

 

Thanks men for answering.

It probably works fine, but RAW states that the multiple attacks action can be used for two semi or full auto attacks in a single round."

Then, you can make full or semi auto burst with two weapon fighting engaged in melee????? what about the subtype in the combat chart that states ranged only?

Well, you can make ranged attacks in melee if you are using pistols. By definition, all attacks where you fire projectiles or energy beams at your opponent is a ranged attack, even if it's done point blank or even in melee.

 

I do however have one houserule to suggest if you want to shift the usefullness of WS up a bit. Allow pistols in melee to be parried.
 

[Dalnor Surloc 1]

It should be noted power armor isn't as powerful as people think.  A powersword or the like is still going to go through it like it isn't there.  Also didn't the Errata move power armor up one level of rarity?  Personally given the various subtractions best quality enforce carpace is the way to go.

 

As far as gun vs melee there are a number of considerations.

 

1- Autoguns with manstoppers are horrible vs unarmored foes.  Against someone with carpace or better they suck.

2- Dual pistoling it always seems attractive but either your weapon doesn't have much ammo, full auto, or/and pen. 

3- Rifles(aka gun or basic weapon) can't be used in melee.

4- It's not hard to get unatural str either with mutations or cybernetics. I've mapped out a number of routes to start with +8-10 melee damage.

5- Dual wielding melee weapons isn't really needed when you look at some of the 2 handed weapons.

6- Don't over look shock weapons.

7- Dual pistols are nice, Omni axes are horrible, but it's hard to beat a long las with a hotshot pack and a red dot scope for damage.  (Short of heavy weapons.)  With rapid reload it's better than a plasma gun.  Even without a hotshot pack with a longlas you can be +20 to hit, and roll as much as 3d10 for damage. 

 

Personally my advice is to carry some sort of a power weapon, and a basic accurate weapon.

[msilvernail 0]

vrosty said:

Hi there!

I have been reading the topics in rogue trader's forum trying to find and explanation for certain rules. If i missed them sorry.

The question is this:

Can someone fire both pistols in full/semi auto modes engaged in hand to hand combat? It seems yes. If this is true is not terrifyingly overwhelming?

Neither the Full-Auto Burst action nor the Semi-Auto Burst action have the melee subtype, and thus cannot be used in hand-to-hand combat.  It would be nice if this was overtly pointed out somewhere, but the rules seem clear in that every action usable in melee combat has the melee subtype keyword, and those do not.

[Graspar 1]

 

Neither the Full-Auto Burst action nor the Semi-Auto Burst action have the melee subtype, and thus cannot be used in hand-to-hand combat. It would be nice if this was overtly pointed out somewhere, but the rules seem clear in that every action usable in melee combat has the melee subtype keyword, and those do not.

Firing two pistols on full auto is a "multiple attacks action", which has the ranged, melee and attack subtypes. So clearly that's not how it works.

Firing a pistol in melee is still a ranged attack (even at single shot), it uses BS (and the description of standard attack defines a ranged attack as one that uses BS), the action has both subtypes because it's used for both kinds of weapon.

[msilvernail 0]

Hmm.   I guess our group's [mis-]understanding of the rules will have to become a house rule then, because playing with melee pistols as single-shot only has resulted in a pleasing lack of game balance issues.

 

[player546410 1,130]

I'll note, just for grins, that nowhere in the book does it actualy define Melee attack or Ranged attack.  It does says you can make a ranged attack while "engaged in melee", but engaged in melee is only defined as having an enemy within 1 meter of you. 

For my own game, I've ruled that an attack made between two people engaged in the same melee is a melee attack.  But that's just me, its never actualy said anywhere.

[Sirion2 0]

vrosty said:

My player told me that multiple attack grants you "attacks" and semi burst is an attack. But i have been telling them that semi auto or full auto are full round attacks of the semitype ranged. So i banned it in melee combat. What do you both think about it?

 

I don't know if this is clarified in RT anyhwere but the DH errata says folling:

"In melee combat, the only ranged weapons you can use are pistols. Pistols used in melee still sue Ballistic skill, still count as ranged weapons, and cannot benefit from any talents that are specifically asociated with melee weapons or melee attacks."

 

so no he does not get to shoot 4 full auto bursts because he still is shooting at range and lightning attack grants melee attacks

[zero26 0]

 You don't even need the errata to point this out. The description of the swift and lightning attack talents says only melee weapon will get the extra attacks.