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prauxim

Aethersprite/7B cost estimate

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Many people are predicting the Jedi Knight will be 38 like Inquisitor.

  • Delta/JK  Pros
    • Slightly better dial  (Access to cheap R2 for blue 1-2 hards)
  • v1/Inq Pros
    • Linked Focus
    • 2/2 vs 3/1 health
  • Unknown
    • Astro + Mod prob prob worth about the same as Sensor + Missile?
    • Unlike Inq, Delta can TL/Repo, but no munitions. Maybe useful for passing TL using Sync Console?

 

So maybe 38 for JK is right on the money?

 

7B

  • Strictly better than T-65
    • Roughly same dial (++[1turn,  5str,  5k,  2sloop] ,  >blue [ 3str ] ,  -- [3 turn, blue 1str, talons],   net [+1 red, same # white and blues])
    • 3/3hp vs 2/4
    • No s-foils
  • Using v1 as model, the force is 5pt (or 15%, so +6pts using Red Sq Veteran as a basis)
    • But worth more due to ship ability

 

So Red Sq Vet is 43, accounting for just the force puts us at 48-9. Seems 51+ is more likely than 50 or lower?

 

 

Edited by prauxim
t65 dial comparison changes

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1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Why are you saying no munitions? Pretty sure they have torps?

I'd guess at pricing without any config along the lines of the v1 yes.

I was going based on YASB. There's no munitions in the spread (Enter the Clone Wars article). Have we seen something that indicates they have them?

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Just memory of the loadout of the thing from various games.

 

Not having access to munitions is probably necessary to balance them, to be honest.  Torps are just painful on ships with Force.  It's good for the game that Luke is the only one with the capacity without spending points to get a force crew/gunner.

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As far as I recall the Aether has no munitions, neither model does. The only time I have seen the ship shoot missles was the cartoon Clone Wars where Anakin's custom fighter fired a bunch of them. Other than that I don't recall anything else that showed the Aether carrying munitions. For bombs however there was the Rogue Squadron 3 game that had a Aether that Wedge picked up to have seismics but that was for more fun I think.

Edited by KiraYamatoSF

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38 for the Jedi Knight sounds about right, but I'm not sure 13+ points for the Delta-7B makes sense. I could see in the 8 to 10 point range for it, with the other upgrade being closer to the 4-6 point range (so you can't take 5 of them, but part of their cost being the opportunity cost of giving up the configuration and a modification slot). 

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If the Sprites end up costing as much as the V1's then they will probably be DOA just as much as the V1 is right now, which is sad as I desperately want them to be good.

 

As a baseline of playability the I5 pilots need to have a cost well under what Luke is worth once you add the 7B title. If any of the I5 Sprite pilots get anywhere near 60 points including the title they will be very hard justify for the points.

 

I'm actually really hoping that the base pilots will be very cost effective and the title maybe a bit more expensive just so there's an actual reason to play both variations. If the title ends up being in the 8-10 points range there's pretty much no reason not to run it when you consider you get 2 shields and an extra attack die (and 1 less defense die).

 

I would like to think most of the I5 pilots are at the 39-40 point mark, but with force being super hard to balance I think they will all end up being in the 45+ point range and not worth their cost comparatively.

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1 hour ago, knute said:

38 for the Jedi Knight sounds about right, but I'm not sure 13+ points for the Delta-7B makes sense. I could see in the 8 to 10 point range for it, with the other upgrade being closer to the 4-6 point range (so you can't take 5 of them, but part of their cost being the opportunity cost of giving up the configuration and a modification slot). 


46-48 for 7B sounds too low compared to a T-65 chassis which is already competitively good.

13 would still be a good value given the stat change, 2x SU is worth 12 alone.

12pts (50 total) maaaaybe. I'd be pretty stoked if it 7B was 50, I'd fly the heck out of 4x JK-7B

Edited by prauxim

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46 to 48 sounds like the ideal place, actually. A T-65 after all with s-foils closed can at least link a focus/boost. The JSF can't. In fact, to link anything the JSF has to spend the one thing it has that distinguishes itself from the T-65: force. Of course you can use the Force token for other things, which is why there's a cost increase over a normal T-65, but I don't see if being significant enough to warrant pushing the Delta-7B upgrade to make the base jedi 51 points. 

In fact, FFG might fake us all out and make both configs 0 points, and instead just build into the point cost the fact that the ship can take the configuration. So a base Jedi knight might only be 45 points or so, with the named ones being upper 40s to lower 60s.

I think that's actually more likely, since it would be easier than trying to point-balance the configurations based on who takes which configuration.

Edited by knute

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11 minutes ago, knute said:

46 to 48 sounds like the ideal place, actually. A T-65 after all with s-foils closed can at least link a focus/boost. The JSF can't. In fact, to link anything the JSF has to spend the one thing it has that distinguishes itself from the T-65: force. Of course you can use the Force token for other things, which is why there's a cost increase over a normal T-65, but I don't see if being significant enough to warrant pushing the Delta-7B upgrade to make the base jedi 51 points. 

In fact, FFG might fake us all out and make both configs 0 points, and instead just build into the point cost the fact that the ship can take the configuration. So a base Jedi knight might only be 45 points or so, with the named ones being upper 40s to lower 60s.

I think that's actually more likely, since it would be easier than trying to point-balance the configurations based on who takes which configuration.

You're underestimating the value of the econ difference. The s-foils link is among the most restrictive econ in the game [decide before you move, sacrifice a red die, do 1 specific action, take 1 specific repo, take stress] where as the 7B's is among the least [do any action, choose between force/BR/Boost, don't get stressed, still get the force if you're stressed]. And the Delta's dial is strictly better [gains white 1 hard, 2 hard is blue, gains 5 straight, better advanced maneuvers]

You think all that difference is only worth 3-5 points over a Red Sq Veteran?

I do agree though that they may bake some amount of the value of the configs into the cost chassis. No clue what Calibrated would be worth, but less than 7B for sure. Would kinda rather them not though, leave the chassis cheap and have effectively 3 chassis in 1.

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I'd expect the Jedi Knight to sit pretty close to the cost of the v1, possibly a point or two below, since it can't evade and keep its focus token.

As for 7B, it'll be expensive. I'm expecting 10-15 points. A Knave is 54 points with a similar dial, statline and action bar, with the main difference being +1 agility for the Knave, and +1 force, +1I for the Knight. Both have powerful if situational abilities.

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7 minutes ago, prauxim said:

And the Delta's dial is strictly better [gains white 1 hard, 2 hard is blue, gains 5 straight, better advanced maneuvers]
 

Ah no the Delta doesn't get a blue 2 hard, and it also loses the 1 straight and the 3 hard from the dial compared to the T-65. add in that a 3 T-Roll is probably better than a 2 sloop most of the time and the dials are pretty much even due only to the 1 hard on the sprite, plenty of grey areas to say either is marginally better than the other but certainly no where near strictly better.

also you overestimate the force on the Sprites, you either get white linked actions or force modifiers, but you cant afford both. I see these ships burning through force just to stay alive at which point they might as well not have the force boost/barrel roll.

also factoring in the conservative Force tax as seen with the V1 and its not looking all that promising TBH.

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I think the Delta upgrade is going be a lot less effective than people think. Two green dice is just not very much to play with. To have any reasonable chance of surviving long term, those Aethersprites need 3 green dice. 

Also, the reason Knaves are 54 points is because they have 3 shields *and* 3 green dice. 3 shields has a *lot* less staying power when you only have 2 green dice (just go ask the T-70 players). 

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We can probably get a rough estimate of where the points should be for a scrub JSF by averaging the price of a knave, blue squadron recruit, and blue squadron rookie - which works out to 47 points. 

If FFG wants to price the configurations at 0, 47 points is probably where a scrub JSF ought to be.

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6 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

the Delta doesn't get a blue 2 hard, and it also loses the 1 straight and the 3 hard

Ah, my bad, the dials are closer than I thought. Still it gains net 1 move, but agreed, it's probably a wash. That makes a 50pt pricing seem more likely.

6 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

you overestimate the force on the Sprites, you either get white linked actions or force modifiers, but you cant afford both

Not overestimating. Its a force point that can instead be a boost or barrel roll, which is a fair bit stronger than just having a force point. It's essentially a stress-free PTL.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

If the Sprites end up costing as much as the V1's then they will probably be DOA just as much as the V1 is right now, which is sad as I desperately want them to be good.

 

As a baseline of playability the I5 pilots need to have a cost well under what Luke is worth once you add the 7B title. If any of the I5 Sprite pilots get anywhere near 60 points including the title they will be very hard justify for the points.

 

I'm actually really hoping that the base pilots will be very cost effective and the title maybe a bit more expensive just so there's an actual reason to play both variations. If the title ends up being in the 8-10 points range there's pretty much no reason not to run it when you consider you get 2 shields and an extra attack die (and 1 less defense die).

 

I would like to think most of the I5 pilots are at the 39-40 point mark, but with force being super hard to balance I think they will all end up being in the 45+ point range and not worth their cost comparatively.

Completely agree with this, none of the 5's are as good as Luke so really shouldn't break 60 with 7B

 

At 38 the lower Init guys will see as much play as the v1, none at all

 

I think with them having so many fewer options as a new faction, we also have to look at the RZ-2 A-Wing, could you ever justify an I3, 1 force generic at the same cost as Lulo? Sure he may, and perhaps should, go up in future - but he is 38 right now and even without force he has a better chassis with double talent slots, crazy good rotating arc, a ship ability that doesn't eat his 1 benefit (seriously, Jedi may have force but they need it for EVERYTHING), and can pump his attack as he desires.

 

I'm hoping (with low expectations) the Knights are 35, low 40's for the I4 uniques, upper 40's for the rest. 3-4 points for the Calibrated config, 10-12 points for 7B. I don't see why 5 babies with bullseye effects is going to be crazy, 5 A-Wings looks as good if not better.

Edited by FriendofYoda

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13 hours ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

As far as I recall the Aether has no munitions, neither model does. The only time I have seen the ship shoot missles was the cartoon Clone Wars where Anakin's custom fighter fired a bunch of them. Other than that I don't recall anything else that showed the Aether carrying munitions. For bombs however there was the Rogue Squadron 3 game that had a Aether that Wedge picked up to have seismics but that was for more fun I think.

That would be the 2D animation clone wars, which is non-canon. in the 3D one that is canon, Anakin's fighter was a standard -7B. the -7 and -7B both lacked any sort of munitions, relying entirely on their built in lasers.

the rogue squadron games are also non-canon as well, and as with all of the videogames, took severe liberties with the details of the spacecraft in order to fit them into videogame mechanics.

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7 hours ago, knute said:

Also, the reason Knaves are 54 points is because they have 3 shields *and* 3 green dice. 3 shields has a *lot* less staying power when you only have 2 green dice (just go ask the T-70 players). 

If you can stack tokens. I'd love to ask the T-70 players who play force pilots, also with access to the evade action. ;) 

3 greens and 2 greens and a force token is pretty much the same average amount of evades. So, if you bump, the ships are defensively mostly the same, while the Knight has a potential offensive advantage. If you don't bump, you can a) focus, and the Knave edges out the Jedi on defense. Then again the Knight can modify both defense and offense.  Or you can b) evade in which case the Knave wins out, which is an action the Knight will very rarely do, as it is mostly pretty bad on that pilot.

On the rest of the pilots though, you can stack evade and force. Even with just agility 2, Obi-Wan is much tougher than Corran, and if sameish cost (which I expect), will see much more play. After playing a few games against Debris Gambit Wedge supported by Lando or AP-5, I've come to respect the 2 green focus stacker. Also, Whisper.

2 hours ago, FriendofYoda said:

At 38 the lower Init guys will see as much play as the v1, none at all

That's just because people are dumb. :P Also, allergic to anything not I5+.

The v1 (possibly sans The Grand Inquisitor) is very strong. With unpredictable movement and a great action bar, Inquisitors are phenomenal blockers against I4+, amazing aces against I1-2, and if your opponent manages to get a shot, he or she has to get through three greens, a force and an evade, which mostly just result in no damage at all or possible a lost shield. On the offense they are weak on paper, but set up that FCS and stick to your target, and you'll do damage. If you have six points to spare, Concussion Missiles are a severely underrated upgrade.

Seventh Sister is as tough as a tokened up Soontir Fel and potentially hits as hard as Wedge, only hampered by her middling initiative. The Baron I have less experience with, but I'd imagine slapping FCS and maybe Crack Shot on him can make him an interesting alternative to I1 Strikers and Interceptors.

Again I'm unsure about the big guy. To me he seems overpriced (a full 10 points over Sister!), so I rarely play him. I think I would lower his points cost by 2 points, at least, and put Obi-Wan slightly above that, in the mid to high 50s. This is why I think the standard Aethersprite should be cheap (possibly slightly cheaper than the Inquisitor, since it can't stack force + evade or keep its fists up with FCS, so...36?), and 7B pretty expensive. Let's try this:

Jedi Knight (36) - Statline and dial comparable to v1, dual repo and no stress, but no token stacking either.

Mace Windu (48) - +1 force compared to Seventh Sister, but I think his ability is ever so slightly less useful.

Obi-Wan (55) - Clearly better than the Grand Inquisitor, but again I think he's a little overpriced. Has to be significantly more expensive than Mace though, because the higher the initiative, the higher the chance of dodging arcs, and an I5 pilot with three greens, an evade and two force to spare is nigh unkillable. This is why Vader doesn't have the evade action, BTW, and why Rexler costs a small fortune.

Anakin (65) - Again, top initiative token stackers have to be expensive not to break the game.

7B (12) - Still not entirely sure about this one. 7B Anakin (77) is clearly superior to Kylo Ren (76), but I think his grandson might be slightly overpriced still. Obi-Wan (67) sits close to Vader at a lower initiative, with a worse ability, but the 7B is a much more versatile platform than the horror that is the x1. Mace's (60) closest comparison would probably be Luke (62), which is a little tricky, with Luke winning out on initiative and pilot ability, with Mace having the (slightly) better statline, a better action bar, a better ship ability and an extra force token.

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I think the price point very much depends on the mechanics of the purple evade.

If a JSF can take a focus as an action and then spend a force point to take an evade they would be quite a robust ship with 2 or 3 evade dice. 

If not then the JSF hull is effectivley in the same ball park area as the tie v1 or A-wing: fast but quite fragile. 

Its an interesting design point because within the Republic faction we might expect the Jedi ships to be their ‘core theme’ supported by ARC-170s and V-19s. 

Cheaper JSF which can’t focus & force evade go the other way, niche support ships to the ARC-170s and V19s.

 

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Posted (edited)
Quote

I think the price point very much depends on the mechanics of the purple evade.

As far as i read, its use your action, spend a force, gain an evade.

So only viable for 2+ force pilots.

 

Edited by Rangor

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14 minutes ago, Rangor said:

As far as i read, its use your action, spend a force, gain an evade.

So only viable for 2+ force pilots.

 

I agree it can be read that way. My thinking that it can be used as a free action is that it corresponds with the JSF ship ability (move, spend a force to boost or barrel roll then take an action). 

This would mean a JSF is a ‘force powered push the limit’, allowing a JSF to pull off some crutch manoeuvres by burning force. 

That could make JSFs quite expensive, very hard to hit support platforms (with low damage output). Tack on the 7B and maybe only one, or two are viable in a list (hard to hit, hits hard). 

Which way it goes points a bit to how FFG view Force users. I think their current design points to pilots who can be insanely good, but only in bursts (maybe even only once per game) or consistently pretty good (like Vader in the Tie Adv or Luke in a T-65)?

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4 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

I agree it can be read that way. My thinking that it can be used as a free action is that it corresponds with the JSF ship ability (move, spend a force to boost or barrel roll then take an action). 

This would mean a JSF is a ‘force powered push the limit’, allowing a JSF to pull off some crutch manoeuvres by burning force. 

That could make JSFs quite expensive, very hard to hit support platforms (with low damage output). Tack on the 7B and maybe only one, or two are viable in a list (hard to hit, hits hard). 

Which way it goes points a bit to how FFG view Force users. I think their current design points to pilots who can be insanely good, but only in bursts (maybe even only once per game) or consistently pretty good (like Vader in the Tie Adv or Luke in a T-65)?

I can't be read any other way. You can imagine/hope/pray that it'll be a bonus action, but so far there's nothing to indicate that. Also, keep in mind that we now have multiple ways of getting purple coordinates.

swz32_battle-meditation.png

Let's say it is a bonus action. I bring three Jedi Knights with this upgrade. The first one focuses, spends a force and coordinates the other two, both of which in turn coordinates the other two. Now you have three ships, all taking focus, lock and boost/roll, with no stress.

You'll also get things like a Sidious ARC grabbing a lock and then handing out lock and focus (and stress, which is in turn shed by R4-fueled blues) to Anakin, and Anakin taking a boost, an evade, a barrel roll and THEN meditating foci to both of his escort ARCs. I just wouldn't be possible to balance.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Okapi said:

I can't be read any other way. You can imagine/hope/pray that it'll be a bonus action, but so far there's nothing to indicate that. Also, keep in mind that we now have multiple ways of getting purple coordinates.

swz32_battle-meditation.png

Let's say it is a bonus action. I bring three Jedi Knights with this upgrade. The first one focuses, spends a force and coordinates the other two, both of which in turn coordinates the other two. Now you have three ships, all taking focus, lock and boost/roll, with no stress.

You'll also get things like a Sidious ARC grabbing a lock and then handing out lock and focus (and stress, which is in turn shed by R4-fueled blues) to Anakin, and Anakin taking a boost, an evade, a barrel roll and THEN meditating foci to both of his escort ARCs. I just wouldn't be possible to balance.

Yes you’re likely right there, I hadn’t considered fully the power of Battle Meditation in that context. That would be severely overpowered if BM wasn’t priced very/absurdly high. 

BM allows at least two ships in a 3 ship build to get a focus (normal action) and a co-ordinated evade (-1 force). That’s still extremely good to bolster non-limited ships.

Thinking of it now Jedi look quite ‘expandable’ which suggests a moderate price point, but the option to load them out (delta 7, astromech, force power, spare parts etc) into high cost aces? 

Edit to include quite a good review of the power, or limits, of “battle meditation”

 

Edited by Tam Palso

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