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Dormitz to 70 points, Hyperspace to 10

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I saw the "deemphasizes emphasis on careful maneuvering" and snorted. I've been playing versions of this list since 1.0 The actual problem with the list in 2.0 wasn't Dormitz or the initiative-manipulation of HTD. It was the token-stack, pure and simple. Which they consciously BOOSTED from the version of the card that existed in 1st. Once the first turn is over, you absolutely have to know how to "carefully maneuver," unless you were playing the Collision Detector version . If the absence of careful maneuvering was their concern, then Collision Detector is actually the problem. But the token stack was actually the problem.

For the record, I already have a new version of triple Ups, using neither Dormitz nor HTD (I wanted to use Cardinal and/or Stridan, but neither of them is really any good). I think in the right hands it's still actually pretty good (not meta-shaking by any means), but will sadly no longer be as fun to fly.

But yes, this was absolutely an overreaction.

Edited by Eisai
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5 hours ago, Jarval said:

While I entirely get the reasoning behind this, it makes Dormitz much too expensive for his effect in any other list, and likewise means that Hyperspace Tracking Data just won't see play. I see why its been done, but it feels like they swung too far on this one. 

Like Supernatural Reflexes on I6. I would be surprised if they don't scale these back a bit once hyperspace is more fleshed out. 

One concern I have is that they now have set the precedent that they will change points more often than every six months which could become frustrating. It also allows them to become lazier with play testing before releasing new content which I don't see as a good thing. They will continue to release broken combos and then when somebody discovers it just nuke it into nonexistence instead of making it balanced in the first place.

Edited by Skitchx

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2 hours ago, Deffly said:

To all those cheering on FFG for this change... Really? 

I get that this list needed to be killed, I fly FO almost exclusively (never ran this list in 2.0) but now FFG have relegated both cards to binder trash. 

Just because a card has been printed doesn't give it some sort of innate right to be competitively playable. And these two cards really shouldn't have been printed in the first place. They only exist to facilitate turn 1 alpha strikes, which is something the game could really do without. Them being relegated to binder trash is just fine.

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7 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Just because a card has been printed doesn't give it some sort of innate right to be competitively playable. And these two cards really shouldn't have been printed in the first place. They only exist to facilitate turn 1 alpha strikes, which is something the game could really do without. Them being relegated to binder trash is just fine.

Surely the aim of the game should be for as many options as possible to be available in a balanced fashion? In an ideal world, binder trash should be kept to a minimum.

I really don't see Dormitz or HTD as problematic anywhere other than the triple Upsilon list. They're both interesting once a game effects that I'd be happy to see getting used.

As I've said above, my biggest issue is the comparison between Dormitz and the other Upsilon pilots. How is he worth 8 points more than Tavson?

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Arkanta974 said:

Let's take a moment of silence for those who have bought  more upsilons from Amazon just for doing this list ! :P

Personally, I'm just grinning at the thought of finally getting hold of a cheap upsilon to support my First Order as the netlisters mass-dump them all on ebay....

10 hours ago, Eisai said:

I saw the "deemphasizes emphasis on careful maneuvering" and snorted. I've been playing versions of this list since 1.0 The actual problem with the list in 2.0 wasn't Dormitz or the initiative-manipulation of HTD. It was the token-stack, pure and simple. Which they consciously BOOSTED from the version of the card that existed in 1st. Once the first turn is over, you absolutely have to know how to "carefully maneuver," unless you were playing the Collision Detector version . If the absence of careful maneuvering was their concern, then Collision Detector is actually the problem. But the token stack was actually the problem.

Agreed. My plan for dealing with it was essentially to refuse to engage in the first turn (afterburner-equipped strikers can go "not today, thank you" in a way most squads can't) after which, they didn't seem that bad as a squad.

 

Is the Hyperspace Tracking Data still worth it? Hmm. Outside Dormitz, probably not. The ability to deploy at I6 is nice, but since it can only be attached to an Upsilon, you can't put it on a cheap Epsilon Cadet as "everyone gets a token" insurance against Boba Fett or Han Solo pulling a turn 1 fast one on you. 

It's a nice option in theory to have a shuttle supporting two aces being able to deploy with said aces, but I'm not sure if that justifies 10 points or not. Certainly, without the ability to retain tokens, the token stack feels a bit irrelevant.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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This tag in their article is the very definition of knee-jerk, and likely the solution was created without much actual thought at all. I don't know why, but I feel this will ultimately be looked back upon as really bad for the game, though the issue and the initial thought was immediately deemed good for it.

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Bare in mind that this solution is not necessarily the final one. These new points are not set in concrete to never be changed again, they can be further changed in July. This is why i think they were smashed hard right now - in FFG's opinion it is better to absolutely kill it with fire for the next 4 months to make sure it doesn't screw with the inaugural Hyperspace season and it actually gives them time to engineer a better solution that makes them usable (although never in the specific tripups form). Whether that further change will be just another points tweak, or an errata/FAQ who knows.

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19 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Good riddance. I hated that list.

I still have to figure out ways to fly two Upsilons in a list viably. Just for the fun of it.

I played the following recently and it was a lot of fun:

- Blackout (Trick Shot, Pattern Analyzer)
- Starkiller Base Pilot (Captain Phasma, Pattern Analyzer)
- Starkiller Base Pilot (Tractor Beam, Pattern Analyzer)
200 points
 

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1 hour ago, Sabalom Glitz said:

The simplest fix would have been playtest and development but that didn't happen. 

Can't wait to see what the community finds when we playtest Sep's and Rep's for them

It's not necessarily reasonable to expect that every single combination of ships and upgrades can be tested by a test team significantly smaller than the player population.  Given how much content was dumped on us initially, I'm actually rather surprised the community has found so few problem combos.

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1 hour ago, Sabalom Glitz said:

It's a faction locked card that can only be placed on upsilons. Not exactly a needle in the haystack. 

 

That's not exactly how playtesting works. I mean, the entire community having a product for a day will pit more hours in than a full playtest cycle. This means far more permutations of oddball combinations than the playtesters can ever conceivably try out. Check how small the tester credits are on the Resistance and FO kits, that's not a lot of eyes and in this case it wasn't 1 upgrade, but rather combining it with a pilot ability that dramatically altered it's value. Then you also have to factor in costs can swing substantially as can exact text of abilities and you can get combinations that at one point were fine or impossible and that only appeared after changes were made resulting in unexpected consequences.

 

As someone who has participated in a number of open and closed playtest, the concept most people seem to have of the process is fundamentally flawed.

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4 hours ago, Sabalom Glitz said:

The simplest fix would have been playtest and development but that didn't happen. 

Can't wait to see what the community finds when we playtest Sep's and Rep's for them

Playtest can't catch everything. FFG has a fraction of the man-hours that the community can spend on playing the game. 

But the Doromitz/HTD combo should have stuck out like a sore thumb. Deploying at I6, beyond range 1, with a token stack, is pretty crazy for 2.0, and was only kept in check in 1.0 by even more powerful combos.

 

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12 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

Playtest can't catch everything. FFG has a fraction of the man-hours that the community can spend on playing the game. 

But the Doromitz/HTD combo should have stuck out like a sore thumb. Deploying at I6, beyond range 1, with a token stack, is pretty crazy for 2.0, and was only kept in check in 1.0 by even more powerful combos.

 

Assuming the playtesters saw both of those cards in the form that we got it. Which isn't a safe bet. 

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5 hours ago, eRADicator67 said:

For all those who believe it sets a precedent:

exception.png.7a232ac0420a4c3ba359077733856d9e.png

Maybe they will follow that article with an article about shipless upgrade packs and when Rebels will get Barrage rockets.

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3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

It's not necessarily reasonable to expect that every single combination of ships and upgrades can be tested by a test team significantly smaller than the player population.  Given how much content was dumped on us initially, I'm actually rather surprised the community has found so few problem combos.

In hindsight, it would have been healthier for the game for FFG to not have done the conversion kits. That would have given them some breathing room. Whether they would have not made the same mistakes, I don't know.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

But the Doromitz/HTD combo should have stuck out like a sore thumb. Deploying at I6, beyond range 1, with a token stack, is pretty crazy for 2.0, and was only kept in check in 1.0 by even more powerful combos.

FO kit released, what, December 1? Midwest scrub posted the seminal work on Triple Upsilons on January 21st.  That's nearly 2 months of public release before this got figured out.  I don't think it's fair to blame FFG for not figuring out this interaction before-hand.

.......

Now I think I need to take Fly Casual, remove all the graphics, and do machine learning with random lists and figure out what lists are actually OP via millions of AI played games.

Edited by XPav

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

In hindsight, it would have been healthier for the game for FFG to not have done the conversion kits. That would have given them some breathing room. Whether they would have not made the same mistakes, I don't know.

Really have to disagree with this - if FFG hadn't released conversion kits, they would have lost almost all of their X-Wing customers and these forums would be far more saturated with griping than they are already. 

Edited by feltipern1

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2 hours ago, Sabalom Glitz said:

It's a faction locked card that can only be placed on upsilons. Not exactly a needle in the haystack. 

No, but from my understanding, it's not just this card or even the combo that's bad, but the combo combined with two other Upsilons, which is probably not the first list to jump into people's heads.

25 minutes ago, XPav said:

Now I think I need to take Fly Casual, remove all the graphics, and do machine learning with random lists and figure out what lists are actually OP via millions of AI played games.

I think you'll discover that shuttles are absolutely useless, based on the AI always wanting to fly them off the board at full health.

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