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Parakitor

Playing 2.0 with larger squadrons

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My friends and I are going to play Epic X-wing Friday night. Obviously, without huge ship rules, we're going to do a kind of variant of @SpikeSpiegel's Fighter Squadrons.

However, we're going to make a few changes because one of our players absolutely adores the Ghost. So I'm thinking we limit the squad to a max of 2 large ships. This also let's you get a thematic command ship like a Lambda shuttle or Decimator. Not sure if we need to limit the number of medium ships because they play enough like fighters (arcs and K-wings, for example), although Firesprays get to play now, too. I think that will be fine, but I am not sure if we need to limit the number of medium ships. Maybe limit 4 medium?

Speaking of limiting what you can bring, Epic 1.0 ended with this interesting limit on talents, torpedoes and missiles: 4 per squad. We also had the longstanding rule of no more than 8 of any ship type. Are these worth bringing over, or is Second Edition now balanced enough that we don't need to worry about it?

For example, massed Crack Shot was a major pain, but now that it's restricted to bullseye arc, it's a lot harder to just Crack the same ship in the first round of combat. This applies to Predator and Marksmanship, too. Fanatical was also brought up as a concern because one of our players just wants to run Fanatical on everything (it's very thematic for the First Order). This upgrade can be played around if your opponent chooses not to attack ships with shields unless all other shieldless ships have been destroyed, thus limiting how often it activates.

So it seems like I'm talking myself out of the 'limit 4 talent' rule, except for Juke. Juke feels bad when your opponent uses it en masse against you. And it's not restricted to bullseye arc, so it's easier to use. Do you think it's fair to limit Juke, but not the other talents?

Are there any other problem cards that should be limited that I am missing. Are massed Proton Torpedoes going to be problematic at 12 points?

P.S. After reading the Epic Fighter Squadrons thread, we may limit it to 400 points to make the games a little faster.

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Its Sunday so I am probably too late to offer advice.  So instead I will ask for a recap on what you went with and how it worked out?

I am especially interested in finding out if there were masses of things like Vet Turret Gunner Y-Wings or other such spam that ruled the day.

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We all ended up getting to the store too late, so we postponed it and played Hyperspace instead. But here are the things we've decided on for Fighter Squadrons 2.0:

  • 600 points
  • Limit 1 large ship
  • Limit 2 of any type of Medium ship (unknown if we should limit total numbers of medium ships)
  • Limit 8 of any small ship
  • Limit 4 of any generic pilot, or non-configuration upgrade

This does put a lot of restrictions on the builds, but it promotes diversity, which is more fun than facing an entire squad of double-tap Y-wings, as was pointed out. Also limits Torpedo spam. Limiting generics means that your swarmy ships either have all named pilots, or a up to 4 named pilots to help your 4 high-initiative generics (spamming high initiative used to be a winning strategy, but the way points are distributed among generics, not every ship can afford to bump up to the higher initiative; see TIE strikers for example).

Keep in mind, the goal of this format is to simulate squadrons of fighters engaging with enemy squadrons, hence the lack of large ships, and the restriction on medium ships. IG-2000 is obviously unhappy because Epic is the only place to put all 4 of them together, but I suspect that when Epic rules are officially released there will be provisions to allow such cool combinations.

Also, with this many points wrapped up in small-medium ships, games will last a LONG time. I anticipate about 4 hours, so I'm still considering dropping the squad size, but we need to try out second edition fighter squadrons before we make a decision there.

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8 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Limit 2 of any type of Medium ship (unknown if we should limit total numbers of medium ships)

Why limit medium bases so heavily? I'm curious what you think the problem builds are here, because current standard play allows four K-Wings. 

You're not allowing things that are possible in the standard game and I'm not really sure why. 

I suppose I could see four Firesprays being a bit problematic, but it should theoretically be balanced out by the points. 

8 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Keep in mind, the goal of this format is to simulate squadrons of fighters engaging with enemy squadrons, hence the lack of large ships, and the restriction on medium ships. IG-2000 is obviously unhappy because Epic is the only place to put all 4 of them together, but I suspect that when Epic rules are officially released there will be provisions to allow such cool combinations.

Again, why make specific exceptions for certain combos when you can just up the limit to 4? 

A lot of the medium bases are fighters. Why wouldn't they get to be in squadrons? Only allowing 2 ARC-170s seems really weird to me. 

If you wanted to limit large bases and certain combos of medium ships, then maybe you could say that any ship that's medium or large and has a title can only be brought if it has a title equipped. 

That would effectively do the same thing as limiting large bases to 1, though doesn't punish Scum quite so heavily (as they have a lot more large bases) and keeps things kinda thematic. It also limits the Firesprays to the three named ones without limiting other medium base ships. 

The only ship that suffers for that is the G1-A but.... does anyone really want to bring generics? Maybe the Scurrg too, I suppose but again I don't see too many people complaining. 

I know you want this to be about fighters, but I'm not sure I see the harm if someone wants to bring the Ghost and the Falcon. 

And denying people the option to bring a motley crew of bounty hunters in favour of squadrons of super generic Kihraxz, Scyk or even Fang fighters seems a bit unfair to Scum players. A lot of Scum's identity is tied to large or medium base ships. 

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1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

 I'm not really sure why...

Me neither, man. I'm with you, a lot of our choices seem arbitrary. The idea is to focus on starfighters, which was relatively straightforward in first edition, but medium bases blur the line a bit. It's not my format, so I ended up just rolling with the local group's suggestions.

I appreciate your input. It looks like allowing one large ship is a mistake because of the inevitable, "Just one more large ship can't hurt, right?" Seems like fighter squadrons should probably stick to small bases to keep it simple, which of course can be tweaked by anybody who wants to try it.

The idea isn't to make a completely balanced game, but to let folks have fun just flying a bunch of small snubfighters. The limits were there just to protect from spam and some broken nonsense (like 4 Trajectory Simulator TIE punishers), and to keep it focused on small ships.

I guess I just can't wait for official Epic rules because it's difficult for a large group of people to agree. We'll play this our way locally and I'll report back afterwards.

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1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

I guess I just can't wait for official Epic rules because it's difficult for a large group of people to agree. 

This is why Official Content is always important, and why "DIY" as a solution to missing elements is the game is a lame answer.

3 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

You're not allowing things that are possible in the standard game and I'm not really sure why. 

I mean, the whole point is a non-standard game, no?

Quote

Why limit medium bases so heavily?

Medium bases are ex-Large ships or at the very least fighter/bombers, so I can see keeping them on the down-low for a "Fighter Only" game.

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4 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

It also limits the Firesprays to the three named ones without limiting other medium base ships.

🤨 Not like Andraste, Marauder and Slave 1 were the only Firesprays ever flown... I can see, though dislike, limiting numbers of a chassis for balance reasons, but requiring someone take a title to be able to field a chassis is about as HUTAS a level of slanted bull as things can get.

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If you are trying to simulate a larger scale battle between "squadrons," then I like the limits your group has chosen.

You've set up just enough points and flexibility to have each team consist of 3-4 ships (or 1-2 large/med) filling each of the roles below (In a "real" battle between squadrons, there could be a dozen or more of each type but who can get enough time to do a 2000 point battle):

"Interceptor" - Fast, maneuverable fighters that can cut through the enemy formation to get to the more vulnerable enemy ships often trailing behind a screen of Air Superiority fighters.  Examples, A-Wings, Tie Interceptor

"Air Superiority" - Rugged, maneuverable, ships with a good mix of offense and defense that can take on anything thrown their way, often used for escorting slower, more vulnerable craft into or out of a battle area or simply to clear an area of hostile fighters.  Examples, Kihraxz, Tie/sf

"Bombers" - Slow, lumbering ships that have a hard time defending against other fighters, but that can deal large amounts of damage with just a few volleys of torpedoes or missiles. Examples MG-100, Y-Wing

"Command and Control" - Support ships carrying specialized crew and equipment that can aid friendly forces by giving them tactical or strategic advantages during a battle.

 

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What about a 'squadron resource' system, sort of like to epic points for huge ships?

A squadron based on a planet or station would have finite resources. The commander has to make decisions and do the best with what's available.

Just to spit ball the idea, you get 10-15 points for a regular game, more for a game with multiple formations. Pick a primary space frame. Those are each 1 point each for the basic version. Veterans and named pilots cost more. A secondary space frame cost two points each to reflect extra parts and crew. Any use of ordinance is a point or two for the whole squadron. Limit one generic, large ship at 2 resource points as your armed supply hauler. Upgrade that for a point or two if you like, just no unique pilots. Once the resource points are spent, build a standard list based on how you used your resources. Add a medium or large support ship for larger games at 3-4 points but maybe it gets extra upgrades or expanded range of effect. Huge ships count as a formation.

Campaigns can reward with more points as it progresses. Multi player games have squadrons flying support of each other maybe attacking a base or capitol ship represented by a table edge.

Just a random thought.

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