Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Thalandar

Point increase soon?

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

If ensuring the "big toys" get play is the goal, then a unit cap could just be put in place at the 800 point level, or a requirement that X% of your points are spent on a single unit. 

The only time I have really seen restrictions like that outside of the Force Org chart is Bolt Action tournaments trying to minimize the number of activations per side for time purposes. The official rules have no hard caps on number of units you can spend your points on.

I think it would be interesting to host a tournament with an 8 unit cap per army, just to see how it would change things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This topic comes up every other week and I pretty sure there will be no Points increase in the near future and very likely not ever. The game is balanced for 800P and very good in my opinion. I have a feeling that the mostly driving reason for wanting 1000P is because 1000 feels like a nice number. I'm pretty convinced that if everything in Legion was priced 20% higher and 1000P would be the standard there would be no question of whether we should increase to 1250 Points.

I tried writing a 1000P list for an upcoming ground assault event and I always wound up creating a 800P list I'm comfortable with and then adding some (and then worrying about activation control). It's mostly what you are accustomed to. If you played already some 1000P games you'll of course feel more comfortable with it. I like it as it is and see no reason to change it. Everybody is of course to play however they like. But the standard is 800P, it's not going to change and please don't try to force it on anybode else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Thalandar said:

We aren't fool ourselves, have you not read our posts? There is no significant time increase at all. I have played 6+ 1000 point games and 2 1200 point games, all in less than 2.5 hours. 

I think the nah sayers here need to actually play a 1000 point game before you come to your conclusions.

Have you not read  mine? Time is not the only issue with 1000 point games and YES, I have played multiple 1000 point games. With the same list+200 points our games went to 2 hours 45 minutes-3 hours and the tactic part about the random stack got another 3 activations. So yes, as in X-Wing, the point limit has been clearly tested. Every once in a while we want to indulge us and make a list of all flavours with PalpaVader, PalpaATST or whatever but for a balanced game (as in a tournament)  you want the 800 point version.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem I have with increasing the point limit is that it will make every list less unique. You've made it so that every list will have max corp at this point because why give up all those activations. Maxing out on sniper teams is still popular and while the new Pathfinders have shaken that up on the rebel's side they're still not going to go away. Depending on commander choice, maxing support is also possible at 800 points as well. Rebels can max all but the operative slot at 1000 points, and because of that it dumbs down list building. Empire can't do that, but it's because of the high cost of their heavies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Senjius said:

Have you not read  mine? Time is not the only issue with 1000 point games and YES, I have played multiple 1000 point games. With the same list+200 points our games went to 2 hours 45 minutes-3 hours and the tactic part about the random stack got another 3 activations. So yes, as in X-Wing, the point limit has been clearly tested. Every once in a while we want to indulge us and make a list of all flavours with PalpaVader, PalpaATST or whatever but for a balanced game (as in a tournament)  you want the 800 point version.

Well, i guess you and i disagree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Thalandar said:

Well, i guess you and i disagree.

That´ is not a bad thing. Maybe you/your lists are faster than me/my lists. Or maybe your opponents wreck you (or are wrecked by you) in 3-4 turns. In my case, my group and I played a 800 points/2hours and a half tournament last sunday. The final was the only game finished in less than 2 hours 15 minutes and only because my opponent made two big mistakes and my list was a counter for his. The rest of the games were finished just in time or left unfinished (my second game finished in the 4th turn due to time limit).

I just hope they keep the tournament format at 800 points because there are few things more disappointing in a game that an unresolved match finished due to time limit. Extra disappointing for the loser if the game was close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As to how much increasing the points changes the play time, I think a big part might be a difference in list composition. When I build a 1000 point list, I tend to maximize the number of troopers before seeing what big ticket units I can fit, rather than using troopers/corps as filler.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if we want to see more big toys viability, you don't want more points, you want fewer corps.

I would love to see a force org chart that maxed corps at 5 or even 4... think that could be be super fun, and would be tournament friendly. This would shift the meta towards a little more Jenny/Johnny, Timmy/Tammy style play so of course it's gonna appeal to me! 🤣

I would also like to play more games at 1000 or even 1200. Big games are super fun, but do take more time, and I wouldn't want to see the default format go that way.

That said, I'm pretty sure Legion is going to stay at 800 with current force limits regardless of my desires 😭because in one of Luke's LVO interviews he teased an army of Krennic, Deathtroopers, 3 E-Web and 6 unreleased units (shore troopers? range troopers? mud troopers?). Those units are likely corps, indicating current corp limits will stay in place. Krennic + 6 Stroms w. DLT + 3 E-Web + Deathtroopers = 739. Assume another ~30pt for a Deathtrooper heavy weapon and you're still under 800 with a few grenades, or stims, or recons intels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whether or not the point limit of 800 points is sufficient, I choose to believe it isn't a random number created. I stand strongly on a contradiction; there has been several times where building an army I was short 1 point, and there was nothing to remove while keeping the army's strategy... Ugh if only had one more point! lol.  However, I love limits in games where there is that many good things yet just can't include them all ending up having to make very difficult choices that do effect the overall outcome and strategy.

Also, keep in mind with as much as ppl complain about the length of time it takes to play a game or not enough time, adding to the points limit = more units which = added time to complete game.     It's fine as it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

800 point limits is a feature, not a bug. It helps us make tough choices when at a higher count we might just throw everything, kitchen sink and all, into a list.

I think it’s great the way it is, but if you want to ramp up the points you are free to do that at your game if you find someone who wants to as well. 

Sort of. What you are missing is that 1000 points would still be "tough choices" category. 800 is in fact too constricting because it does not allow for you to take the centerpiece models without crippling your army.

Its one reason why AT-STs are so bad. They are a support unit, but taking them means no army for them to support. At 1000 though, there would be enough of an army for them to support that you wouldn't be flatfooted on scenario by putting your eggs in that basket.

1500 would definitely be too much, but 1000 would be about right. Plus 1000 points doesn't irritate my OCD like FFGs weird obsession with 200-400-800 point levels in their games.

And really 1000 points does not take any longer than 800 points. I've been playing wargames for over a decade to know this.

Edited by BadMotivator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

And really 1000 points does not take any longer than 800 points. I've been playing wargames for over a decade to know this.

As have I, and how much the gameplay time changes based on the increase in points depends on the game. IGYG games tend to be the least affected, while games with alternating activations have a greater impact. Also it depends on what is added to the army to fill those extra points. Three to four more infantry units per side will increase the total time required more than a single vehicle added to each side, as I have personally experienced in Bolt Action, which has a very similar activation scheme to Legion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More points =/= more variety.

List-building is kind of a pseudoscience, there's a math and logic to it in picking the optimal setup for you and covering your tactical bases and what-not, but there's also a lot of groupthink, preconceptions, etc which get in the way of building the most perfect list, or whatever. Plenty of units can be used effectively in a variety of lists and be really good (LVO had some stunners with Laser Cannons and Palp) even if people may dismiss them. There's a lot of subjective impressions and player skill and attitude to consider.

So, you give people 200 more points, some players will say, "Neat, I like the rest of my list, now I can just drop a Heavy or another Operative/Commander in the list" (though in case of Commanders/Operatives, really pushing that command hand). Others might say "cool, I can comfortably built a list from the ground up to support a centerpiece unit or two and still have all the bits and bobs I need to stay current". But other people will say "my list has already reached it's optimal form where I have all the activations and commands I like - now I have more points I can just fill every upgrade slot on my units for fun without losing anything and still have a huge point bid". Just because the points change the players may not necessarily change their tactics or playstyle. They might just run what they did before, but bigger, so no sacrifices had to be made and they still have all their activations and troopers and whatever.

The only way to force variety would be to do something like "You can't spend more than 600 on Troopers and 400 on vehicles and no more than 1000 total" but I don't know if the game is in a state for that to be fun or interesting for casual jokey play, let alone general "here's what the rules say to do" consumption and tournament play.

Edited by UnitOmega

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would love to see the point total increased to 1000, but I don’t think the unit numbers should change.

The one thing that needs to change is to have more variety in objectives. Maybe have a few objectives that are dependant on having a vehicle or winning with a vehicle. It would even be nice to have more objectives that are reliant upon different unit types other than Trooper, like Support, or even Operative (though Operatives are a type of trooper). And with those objectives, condition and deployment cards that support those new objectives. That’s not to say the old Battle Cards couldn’t be used as well. I just think the new cards would help with the current issue of Trooper spam if you had a reason to include a heavy or two.

Unfortunatly it seems that FF is only introducing Battle Cards through a expansion release that includes a miniature. They really need to include a whole second set of Battle Cards at this point (at least 9 - three of each) to give variety. At the rate FF is introducing new Battle Cards and the method they have chosen, we will eventually get everything needed, but it’s going to take a couple of years. They really need to introduce a Battle Pack or some kind of Campaign Expansion like they did with Armada where they can introduce several Battle Cards at once.

My 2 cents @ current rate of inflation = not worth the e-paper it’s printed on 🙄😳😏

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think more Battle Cards could do more to shake up the game and change the meta than changing the points. Right now all changing the points really does is allow for players to fairly easily fill every single possible slot with troopers. But a new battle card that made having lots of troopers a detriment might have an impact on all the activation spam armies. Not to mention objectives that either required vehicles or more than can be completed by vehicles. Right now, every list can only select one of each card to exclude from their list, so there isn't as big a difference over whose deck is used. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, NoShieldsAllGuts said:

If you're bored, play doubles with 800 per player. Been itching to try it again with the newer units that are available.

I've played two rounds of one game like this, and it was borderline insane  Took forever, but was really fun.  Can't wait to try again. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...