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Moving before Clashes

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3 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

I should have said, "they may make no actions besides movement until at range 2 to start the clash proper"... 

So if one of them gets attacked by a third fighter after the challenge was made and accepted but before the clash proper starts, he can do nothing about it?

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36 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

So if one of them gets attacked by a third fighter after the challenge was made and accepted but before the clash proper starts, he can do nothing about it?

He can't do anything about it anyway. Plus, the other guy just lost  honor rank honor. If the "enemy" is honorable enough to do clashes/duels, they're honorable enough that the honor loss for interfering matters..

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7 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

He can't do anything about it anyway. Plus, the other guy just lost  honor rank honor. If the "enemy" is honorable enough to do clashes/duels, they're honorable enough that the honor loss for interfering matters..

Why can't he do anything about it? This is a pretty common situation in movies with mass combat: the protagonist and the antagonist lock eyes across the battlefield, it's clear they're going to settle this, but they still fight off others as they make their way towards one another. 

Maybe the third fighter did lose honor, but so what? Maybe he wanted the glory of defeating the protagonist for himself. Maybe he wasn't aware of the challenge. Maybe he's not that honorable to begin with. You don't have to be honorable to do duels anyway.

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I am starting to thing that there is a huge conceptual difference between a one round "clash" without any stake or objective/rule.

Compared to a "ritualised duel".

I am heavily tempted to consider clashes much more, casually.

What stops a Hida with a tetsubo and a full plate to issue a clash to that spear wielding Shiba, if the scene happens during a skirmish.

The "challenge" action is very hard to nail down as there are no concept of fairness here. It can be only one round!! Nothing at "stake" except a few points of glory.

I feel it is more of a "control" tool than anything else. A bit like a "taunt" for a traditional rpg fighter; a way to single out an opponent.

I am even tempted to say nothing stops the bushi from challenging a courtier to a clash (but a yojimbo could *cut in* using its own challenge action?).

It is all very vague and this action (challenge in a skirmish) is potentially so good and spammable that a little more details on it would have been welcomed.

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4 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

I am starting to thing that there is a huge conceptual difference between a one round "clash" without any stake or objective/rule.

Compared to a "ritualised duel".

I am heavily tempted to consider clashes much more, casually.

What stops a Hida with a tetsubo and a full plate to issue a clash to that spear wielding Shiba, if the scene happens during a skirmish.

The "challenge" action is very hard to nail down as there are no concept of fairness here. It can be only one round!! Nothing at "stake" except a few points of glory.

I feel it is more of a "control" tool than anything else. A bit like a "taunt" for a traditional rpg fighter; a way to single out an opponent.

I am even tempted to say nothing stops the bushi from challenging a courtier to a clash (but a yojimbo could *cut in* using its own challenge action?).

It is all very vague and this action (challenge in a skirmish) is potentially so good and spammable that a little more details on it would have been welcomed.

A clash is pretty much a Warrior's Duel from the common forms of duels on p. 258 of the core rules, with the one stipulation that a clash must be part of a larger battle.

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On 3/4/2019 at 5:37 AM, nameless ronin said:

Why can't he do anything about it? This is a pretty common situation in movies with mass combat: the protagonist and the antagonist lock eyes across the battlefield, it's clear they're going to settle this, but they still fight off others as they make their way towards one another. 

Maybe the third fighter did lose honor, but so what? Maybe he wanted the glory of defeating the protagonist for himself. Maybe he wasn't aware of the challenge. Maybe he's not that honorable to begin with. You don't have to be honorable to do duels anyway.

Because all defense is already wrapped up and hidden in the stance.

Cruising towards Daigotsu Minii, and Moto decides to whacka-thump you with a stolen tetsubo, your character has ZERO ability to prevent, and almost no ability to respond to, the attack. You set your defense when you picked stance.

Your reaction choices are 

  • Take the hit and suck it up
  • invoke a school or title ability or a talent which allows a reaction.

If they crit you, you can sacrifice your blade for not taking the crit.

You made your choice when you challenged, now, you have to go deal with them or lose honor for delaying a duel. And remember: the wagered honor and glory are not for the survivor, but for the victor. And while the survivor is usually also the winner, that's not always the case. You avoid it? you've been discourteous to the challenged Publicly

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1 hour ago, AK_Aramis said:

If they crit you, you can sacrifice your blade for not taking the crit.

I found that not that good. Basically reroll dice on your fitness check. Sure, it is ok, but will only basically reduce the crit severity by 2, or 3 at best?

 

Also, is Guard a support action? I dont remember. You could move while guarding.

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1 hour ago, AK_Aramis said:

Because all defense is already wrapped up and hidden in the stance.

Cruising towards Daigotsu Minii, and Moto decides to whacka-thump you with a stolen tetsubo, your character has ZERO ability to prevent, and almost no ability to respond to, the attack. You set your defense when you picked stance.

Your reaction choices are 

  • Take the hit and suck it up
  • invoke a school or title ability or a talent which allows a reaction.

If they crit you, you can sacrifice your blade for not taking the crit.

You made your choice when you challenged, now, you have to go deal with them or lose honor for delaying a duel. And remember: the wagered honor and glory are not for the survivor, but for the victor. And while the survivor is usually also the winner, that's not always the case. You avoid it? you've been discourteous to the challenged Publicly

So I'm trying to get to Daigotsu Minii and one of his Moto buddies starts wailing on me. I have to allow him to keep doing so, I can't fight back, lest I delay the challenge and forfeit my honor? 

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35 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

So I'm trying to get to Daigotsu Minii and one of his Moto buddies starts wailing on me. I have to allow him to keep doing so, I can't fight back, lest I delay the challenge and forfeit my honor? 

depends where you are in the initiative compare to them. but after moto hits you, he loses honor and daigotsu also, and the challenge is over if either duellist wants it to end there. if both agree to keep going at it, they can play the clash at the end of the round.
that is how i'd play it.

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53 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

but after moto hits you, he loses honor and daigotsu also, and the challenge is over if either duellist wants it to end there.

That’s one important point here. If an interloper steps in, the challenge is basically ruined. It’s no longer a contest of skill between two warriors. The aggrieved party is no more beholden to keep seeking out the challenger and the only one who loses honor and glory is the guy who interrupted the whole thing... I guess ?

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3 minutes ago, Franwax said:

That’s one important point here. If an interloper steps in, the challenge is basically ruined. It’s no longer a contest of skill between two warriors. The aggrieved party is no more beholden to keep seeking out the challenger and the only one who loses honor and glory is the guy who interrupted the whole thing... I guess ?

the one who interrupted the whole thing AND the one who he interrupted for, check sidebar in the Clash rules. (but in the case of a random bear coming out of the wood to interrupt the duel I wouldnt remove honor from the duellist who the bear "helped".)

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3 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

depends where you are in the initiative compare to them. but after moto hits you, he loses honor and daigotsu also, and the challenge is over if either duellist wants it to end there. if both agree to keep going at it, they can play the clash at the end of the round.
that is how i'd play it.

What if the Moto was unaware of the challenge?

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Posted (edited)

I think before the moto acts, Daigotsu would have said "leave it to me you fool" (5 words + fool, works by RAW :) )

but if the moto is just deaf, blind, and coming out of the sky, i'd consider the moto as the "bear" in my previous example. These situations should not come up often though.

i don't think this is a rule/system issue at this point.

Edited by Avatar111

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10 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

I think before the moto acts, Daigotsu would have said "leave it to me you fool" (5 words + fool, works by RAW :) )

but if the moto is just deaf, blind, and coming out of the sky, i'd consider the moto as the "bear" in my previous example. These situations should not come up often though.

i don't think this is a rule/system issue at this point.

Possibly. Again, to me this just seems like the one instance in the entire book where some hard mechanical restrictions are imposed instead of letting the norms of the setting dictate what happens.

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1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

Possibly. Again, to me this just seems like the one instance in the entire book where some hard mechanical restrictions are imposed instead of letting the norms of the setting dictate what happens.

the challenge action?
it is a bit.. too vague, but the book would really need like at least a sidebar to explain who can duel who, like, how does that work.

I like the "if its a non-combattant" you cant challenge him, but then again, if a shugenja is raining fire on you... I think a challenge is doable vs him (in a skirmish, the challenge action I mean). but that's just me.

also, the wording for "interrupting clashes" is a bit weird, seems like the person who gets replaced in a duel loses honor no matter what, but I don't do that. if someone uses the challenge action to "cut-it" nobody loses honor. This way I allow "yojimbos". kind of.

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11 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

the challenge action?
it is a bit.. too vague, but the book would really need like at least a sidebar to explain who can duel who, like, how does that work.

I like the "if its a non-combattant" you cant challenge him, but then again, if a shugenja is raining fire on you... I think a challenge is doable vs him (in a skirmish, the challenge action I mean). but that's just me.

also, the wording for "interrupting clashes" is a bit weird, seems like the person who gets replaced in a duel loses honor no matter what, but I don't do that. if someone uses the challenge action to "cut-it" nobody loses honor. This way I allow "yojimbos". kind of.

If you challenge a non-combattant, they send their yojimbo, with no loss of honor... But may be expected to commit seppuku if the Yojibo dies.

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6 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

If you challenge a non-combattant, they send their yojimbo, with no loss of honor... But may be expected to commit seppuku if the Yojibo dies.

In a "clash"?

Depending on the initiative of participant, the yojimbo might not have time to use the challenge action to cut in.

So unless you houserule something, if the courtier is in the skirmish with a weapon, he can be challenged.

And the only way for him to avoid getting in the clash is someone else lower than the challenger in the initiative phase who can use a challenge action to cut in.

At least, according to the rules.

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7 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

In a "clash"?

Challenging a non-combattant in a clash (so during a skirmish, not because he insulted your honor in court) is dishonorable. Insofar as it should even happen, the non-combattant should be able to ignore or refuse the challenge without loss of honor.

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3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Challenging a non-combattant in a clash (so during a skirmish, not because he insulted your honor in court) is dishonorable. Insofar as it should even happen, the non-combattant should be able to ignore or refuse the challenge without loss of honor.

is a courtier with a weapon in his hand swinging at people in the skirmish a non-combattant ?
is a shugenja casting fireball at people in the skirmish a non-combattant ?
 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

is a courtier with a weapon in his hand swinging at people in the skirmish a non-combattant ?
is a shugenja casting fireball at people in the skirmish a non-combattant ?

'Heck no' and 'no, but' respectively.

If you're swinging a weapon in combat you're a combattant. Doesn't matter what kind of weapon. That leaves you open to be challenged. If you're clearly a weak, untrained warrior I personally would modify the details of the challenge accordingly (there should not be any honor or glory gain for challenging a weaker opponent, and depending on how much weaker there should probably be an honor loss), but since you're participating in armed combat you can be singled out for an individual armed contest - Rokugani customs will not protect you.

If you're making offensive invocations in combat you're also a combattant, but you're presumably unarmed or considered to be (your wakizashi is more of a status symbol than a weapon, unless you draw it). In such a case you can't be compelled into accepting a challenge to a duel of martial skill and even attempting such a challenge should cost the would-be challenger both honor and glory. There are however shugenja (the Tamori are quite famous for this) that mix it up and employ both invocations and weapons. Such shugenja honorably can be challenged to a martial duel during a skirmish; they can still refuse without losing anything (or the challenger gaining anything, it's basically a dud in that case), but if they formally accept they should not (further) use invocations during the clash. It's more likely the "challenger" will merely try to provoke the shugenja into focusing on them in either case, and try to defeat him in combat without it being a "clash" - both sides can do whatever they want.

Edited by nameless ronin

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

**** no and no, but respectively.

If you're swinging a weapon in combat you're a combattant. Doesn't matter what kind of weapon. That leaves you open to be challenged. If you're clearly a weak, untrained warrior I personally would modify the details of the challenge accordingly (there should not be any honor or glory gain for challenging a weaker opponent, and depending on how much weaker there should probably be an honor loss), but since you're participating in armed combat you can be singled out for an individual armed contest - Rokugani customs will not protect you.

If you're making offensive invocations in combat you're also a combattant, but you're presumably unarmed or considered to be (your wakizashi is more of a status symbol than a weapon, unless you draw it). In such a case you can't be compelled into accepting a challenge to a duel of martial skill and even attempting such a challenge should cost the would-be challenger both honor and glory. There are however shugenja (the Tamori are quite famous for this) that mix it up and employ both invocations and weapons. Such shugenja honorably can be challenged to a martial duel during a skirmish; they can still refuse without losing anything (or the challenger gaining anything, it's basically a dud in that case), but if they formally accept they should not (further) use invocations during the clash. It's more likely the "challenger" will merely try to provoke the shugenja into focusing on them in either case, and try to defeat him in combat without it being a "clash" - both sides can do whatever they want.

then we have to disagree.

i'm specifically talking about the challenge action in skirmish, and I think if you sling fireball around or you fling a weapon around, you are a target.

same as in war, if you were a blue helmet medic, then don't cary a gun and people don't shoot at you, if you run around shooting with an M-16, even if you suck with it... well, you are a target.
then again, WINNING a clash (which can be only ONE round...) only give strife to the opponent's allies. There are no honor gain or glory gain mentioned (though, If you DO clash with a higher skill combattant and you win or make him back off, I'd give some glory, and if you challenge a definitely weaker opponent, like a peasant with a fork... then I'd give you an honor penalty same as if you challenge a pacifist courtier/shugenja).
but a shugenja, or monk or courtier ? running around delivering death left and right ? dang right I'll challenge them to a clash and so should you.

Edited by Avatar111

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17 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

is a courtier with a weapon in his hand swinging at people in the skirmish a non-combattant ?
is a shugenja casting fireball at people in the skirmish a non-combattant ?
 

Assuming "You" refers to a bushi...

You challenge a shugenja, if he has a Yojimbo, you face the Yojimbo. 

Unless he's swinging a weapon other than a wakizashi, jitte, sai, or knife (tanto, aiguchi, etc), wearing a katana, or wearing ashigaru or laminate. In those cases, he's  passing himself off as a bushi, and can be legitimately challenged as if a bushi.

You run up and kill him without challenge, no honor for winning, but no glory risk, either.

Same goes for a courtier... 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

Assuming "You" refers to a bushi...

You challenge a shugenja, if he has a Yojimbo, you face the Yojimbo. 

Unless he's swinging a weapon other than a wakizashi, jitte, sai, or knife (tanto, aiguchi, etc), wearing a katana, or wearing ashigaru or laminate. In those cases, he's  passing himself off as a bushi, and can be legitimately challenged as if a bushi.

You run up and kill him without challenge, no honor for winning, but no glory risk, either.

Same goes for a courtier... 

 

you face the yojimbo if the yojimbo acts after the challenge was made during the round, so that the yojimbo can himself challenge the initial challenger (as per the interrupting a clash rule).

but "automatic" replacement of the shugenja by the yojimbo ? while the shugenka is wrecking havok, raining flame in the skirmish ? no way.

same as the card game, you can "challenge" shugenja all day long.

sure, if the shugenja sits in the corner and heal people, or the courtier sits on the floor crying... maybe not.
otherwise, I don't see why you cannot challenge him. REMEMBER, this is not a ritualized "duel" with rules, the shugenja can cast a spell at you during the "clash".
this is not really a formal duel, more like a... clash ? between 2 heroes.
in no way it is strictly restricted to "bushi".
a Shugenja CAN challenge a bushi and cast a fireball on him during the clash.

Edited by Avatar111

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42 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

then we have to disagree.

i'm specifically talking about the challenge action in skirmish, and I think if you sling fireball around or you fling a weapon around, you are a target.

same as in war, if you were a blue helmet medic, then don't cary a gun and people don't shoot at you, if you run around shooting with an M-16, even if you suck with it... well, you are a target.
then again, WINNING a clash (which can be only ONE round...) only give strife to the opponent's allies. There are no honor gain or glory gain mentioned (though, If you DO clash with a higher skill combattant and you win or make him back off, I'd give some glory, and if you challenge a definitely weaker opponent, like a peasant with a fork... then I'd give you an honor penalty same as if you challenge a pacifist courtier/shugenja).
but a shugenja, or monk or courtier ? running around delivering death left and right ? dang right I'll challenge them to a clash and so should you.

Not sure why you asked if your mind was made up, but ok. ;) Agree to disagree. 

Keep in mind that in the Honor and Glory sections in the core rulebook various ways are listed to gain/forfeit honor, glory or both that can apply to duels that aren't mentioned in the section on clashes though (beating a foe with Glory 40+ for a minor glory award, and so on).

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1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

Not sure why you asked if your mind was made up, but ok. ;) Agree to disagree. 

Keep in mind that in the Honor and Glory sections in the core rulebook various ways are listed to gain/forfeit honor, glory or both that can apply to duels that aren't mentioned in the section on clashes though (beating a foe with Glory 40+ for a minor glory award, and so on).

Yeah, if you challenge a foe with higher glory you gain glory.

My mind a actually got made up along the discussion.

As weird as it sound I didn't have a precise answer.. Nor an answer that I was happy with. Now I do! I think it is both fun, clear and balanced.

If your character totally cannot fight because he is a talker or whatever else, then he wouldn't find himself acting aggresively in a skirmish.

Why does the bushi should be the only "target" ?

My evil bad guy is a shugenja, and he challenge whomever he wants. Cast lightning bolts on then.

I probably run my game more like l5r the card game, or thunderbolt fantasy (the show) than real feudal japan. Priests have spells! Monks can kick down trees.

If you don't want or can't fight, you won't be in the skirmish anyway. You will be a "non combattant". Otherwise, all good.

A clash is only one round anyway, not much worst than just taking 1 attack in a skirmish.

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