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Moving before Clashes

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Clashes occur when someone challenge someone else in a skirmish, the range for this "call out" is 0-5.

How do you handle the movement prior to the start of the duel ? do you require the participants to move by themselves ? do you "teleport" them wherever you see fit ?

 

 

Edited by Avatar111

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12 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

They move towards one another and the clash happens where they meet. No teleporting or unlimited range actions. Considering the stakes put up, participants should not have much cause to avoid the confrontation.

So they move, using move actions (or whatever movement they have) and the clash happens if they are at range 2 of each other? If they are not at that distance? (Because one opponent is immobilised, or both, or whatever other reason) The clash doesn't happen and next round they need to move again?

And if they cant agree on the spot to fight in?

I know im being picky now, but these things will happen.

Already that you require them to move is not as per the rule (that seem to imply narrative movement until they are at range 2 from each others, without any considerations for the terrain, traps or what not).

Edited by Avatar111

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1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

So they move, using move actions (or whatever movement they have) and the clash happens if they are at range 2 of each other? If they are not at that distance? The clash doesn't happen and next round they need to move again?

And if they cant agree on the spot to fight in?

I know im being picky now, but these things will happen.

Already that you require them to move is not as per the rule (that seem to imply narrative movement until they are at range 2 from each others, without any considerations for the terrain, traps or what not).

If they're being overly picky about finding the right spot, that's an honor loss in my book. Challenge was made, challenge was accepted, get on with it.

What implies narrative movement? 

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1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

If they're being overly picky about finding the right spot, that's an honor loss in my book. Challenge was made, challenge was accepted, get on with it.

fair enough. still need to polish the details a bit. but honor is a good currency if the player is being a bit too picky/abusing. as long as the NPC is also fair, i guess.

 

3 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

What implies narrative movement? 

you call out at range 5, then at the end of the round "boom" the clash happens. if both characters were immobilised, what happens ? or if they are separated by a river ? can't call out the challenge ?

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5 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

you call out at range 5, then at the end of the round "boom" the clash happens. if both characters were immobilised, what happens ? or if they are separated by a river ? can't call out the challenge ?

Nothing says the first round or two of a clash can't be spent moving towards one another. If they can't actually reach one another, why are they making/accepting a challenge for a clash?

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11 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

If they can't actually reach one another, why are they making/accepting a challenge for a clash?

because if you don't accept you get a penalty. the person accepting doesn't "Want" to accept, he just want this one round over with so he doesn't lose the glory (most of the time, especially if wounded or what not).

but if he also need to get out of his way to "reach" the one who called out the duel, it is like double unfair.

so probably, in a "logical rule setup" the person calling out the challenge should be the one moving, and should be able to close the gap up to range 2 and if he cant (and the other person is not like, running away...) then the clash doesn't happen.

Edited by Avatar111

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6 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

because if you don't accept you get a penalty. the person accepting doesn't "Want" to accept, he just want this one round over with so he doesn't lose the glory (most of the time, especially if wounded or what not).

but if he also need to get out of his way to "reach" the one who called out the duel, it is like double unfair.

so probably, in a "logical rule setup" the person calling out the challenge should be the one moving, and should be able to close the gap up to range 2 and if he cant (and the other person is not like, running away...) then the clash doesn't happen.

If you accept a challenge without any intention of seeing it through, I'll hit you with an honor loss (if you want to trade honor for glory this way, that's fine by me). If you withdraw of your own volition before engaging in combat, I'll consider that as not having "tested your resolve against the foe's steel" and that's an honor loss as well. If you issue a challenge knowing the fight can't take place, I'll equate that to sabotaging the challenge and dock you your stake. If you fight at least one round with conviction, you can withdraw with your honor intact.

If one or the other is in a clearly more suitable place for a duel, it's perfectly ok to wait there for the other to come over. If not though, why is it going "out of your way" to try and reach your opponent so you can cross blades? Do you have something more worthwhile to do instead?

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26 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

If you accept a challenge without any intention of seeing it through, I'll hit you with an honor loss (if you want to trade honor for glory this way, that's fine by me). If you withdraw of your own volition before engaging in combat, I'll consider that as not having "tested your resolve against the foe's steel" and that's an honor loss as well. If you issue a challenge knowing the fight can't take place, I'll equate that to sabotaging the challenge and dock you your stake. If you fight at least one round with conviction, you can withdraw with your honor intact.

I guess that counts as interpreting the rules as you see fit. basically, they both move toward each other in a space they both agree with otherwise somebody (or both) loses honor.

26 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

If one or the other is in a clearly more suitable place for a duel, it's perfectly ok to wait there for the other to come over. If not though, why is it going "out of your way" to try and reach your opponent so you can cross blades? Do you have something more worthwhile to do instead?

because as the character who accepted the challenge (most probably in a losing situation, fatigued, strifed out etc) you accept because you must, but you cleary don't want to, as you are at a solid disadvantage and your opponent knows that, but nothing stops him from calling out a challenge to you, because "rules".

basically, as a group, GM, you need to come up with what is an appropriate situation for a challenge call out. and that is awful to have to bargain that every time with your players. 

Edited by Avatar111

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3 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

because as the character who accepted the challenge (most probably in a losing situation, fatigued, strifed out etc) you accept because you must, but you cleary don't want to, as you are at a solid disadvantage and your opponent knows that, but nothing stops him from calling out a challenge to you, because "rules".

basically, as a group, GM, you need to come up with what is an appropriate situation for a challenge call out. and that is awful to have to bargain that every time with your players. 

I don't disagree completely, but nobody's forced to accept the challenge. Yes, you lose glory if you do. You lose glory if someone sabotages your assignment too, or if they besmirch your reputation, or if they steal the credit for your accomplishments. It's a bad thing that can happen to you entirely outside your control.

Now, figuring out what constitutes an appropriate challenge, that definitely requires GM adjudication. No argument there. I do think enforcing societal norms and conventions is a bit of a fuzzy area in every L5R edition though. Honor/Glory/Status tables don't (and can't) cover everything.

Anyway, my shift ended 20 mins ago and I need sleep. Just my opinion above, do with it as you see fit. ;) 

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6 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

If you accept a challenge without any intention of seeing it through, I'll hit you with an honor loss (if you want to trade honor for glory this way, that's fine by me). If you withdraw of your own volition before engaging in combat, I'll consider that as not having "tested your resolve against the foe's steel" and that's an honor loss as well. If you issue a challenge knowing the fight can't take place, I'll equate that to sabotaging the challenge and dock you your stake. If you fight at least one round with conviction, you can withdraw with your honor intact.

This. issuing a challenge when it's not realistic for the other party to get to you is basically just yelling at them. 

Assuming you can....yeah, i pretty much assume they spend their turns doing manouvre actions before the end-of-turn fight.

6 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

he person calling out the challenge should be the one moving, and should be able to close the gap up to range 2 and if he cant (and the other person is not like, running away...) then the clash doesn't happen.

If the other person is running away, that can't be an 'accepted challenge', so you can assume both sides are actively co-operating in getting to stabbing range - and, this being an affair of honour - that unless there's a good reason, people should be actively getting out of your way.

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I would assume that a duel between honorable Samurai follows a protocol. That is first a time and place is agreed upon, you show up with your Katana but without armor, you then agree upon the stakes and type of duel (first blood, incapacitation or death). Then you fight.

Making or accepting a challenge to a duel and then sticking an arrow in your opponent would be dishonorable presumably.

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19 minutes ago, Alisair Longreach said:

I would assume that a duel between honorable Samurai follows a protocol. That is first a time and place is agreed upon, you show up with your Katana but without armor, you then agree upon the stakes and type of duel (first blood, incapacitation or death). Then you fight.

Making or accepting a challenge to a duel and then sticking an arrow in your opponent would be dishonorable presumably.

The question is more about clashes (in skirmishes). I wanted to see how people handle the movement in these situations because a skirmishes can happen in any kind of funky terrain. and, do the duellists have to use their movement action to move toward the challenge or if they narratively 'teleport' in front of each other when the clash starts.

Your answer is about ritualized duels and not the skirmish clashes (which really doesn't need to be about katana and robes if you ask me, it could be a guy in full plate with a naginata challenging a courtier in robes with a dagger. Nothing stops you from that aside the GM saying "no", and that "no" is heavily dependant on your group's idea about how it should be. An organized duel is another thing, and less problematic than the skirmish challenge action which is super open ended and undefined).

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3 hours ago, Void Crane said:

Don't have my books with me. Can you have a challenge be resolved with archery if distance is a factor? Just curious...

Maybe. Who knows.

The "challenge" action is extremely vague.

Hence the purpose of this thread, to see how others are doing it and have fun discussing about it.

(there are no right or wrong answers as the rule itself doesn't provide any answer)

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Note that issuing a challenge to someone who's already beaten and battered that they won't be a REAL challenge is, at the very VERY least, poor form. Samurai challenge worthy opponents (like the dangerous samurai who just cut a swathe through your ashigaru) not people who're already down. Doing so is an automatic violation of several Bushido tenets, and you'll be haemorrhaging Honour and Glory by doing so. You're only supposed to challenge UP, not down.

If you've just pushed someone to the ground and challenge them while laughing, that's bad. If you've just been pushed to the ground by someone's who's laughing at you and you challenge them, that's good. It may or may not get you killed, but it's good, because it's proper Bushido.

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12 minutes ago, JBento said:

You're only supposed to challenge UP, not down.

this.

this is a keyword that needs to be included. it solves many issues. still doesn't solve the issue of a bushi challenging a courtier in a clash, but its a start.

keep em coming.

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6 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

this.

this is a keyword that needs to be included. it solves many issues. still doesn't solve the issue of a bushi challenging a courtier in a clash, but its a start.

keep em coming.

Challenging a courtier (who presumably might not even be armed aside from his wakizashi) *is* challenging down. In a more formal situation this would get handled via a champion (if the challenge were to be accepted) because a samurai is supposed to be able to defend his honor with steel even if that honor is being impugned by a non-bushi, but during a skirmish there's no need for that. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with just cutting down that courtier during a skirmish if he's on the opposing side. Basically, a challenge is appropriate if it will earn you glory and/or honor. Challenging an unworthy opponent shouldn't earn you either - regardless of what the challenge mechanic says. Pretty much the only way I can see a challenge to an inferior opponent being appropriate is if there's a pre-existing conflict of honor. Some nobody murdered your kid sister? Making it formal rather than just murdering them in turn is appropriate.

Using societal conventions to balance the game has been part and parcel of L5R since 1st edition (and John Wick has definitely moved even further in that direction since). If you think something shouldn't be happening, just look at the bushido code. Chances are you'll find a reason why whatever shouldn't be happening is dishonorable.

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5 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Challenging a courtier (who presumably might not even be armed aside from his wakizashi) *is* challenging down. In a more formal situation this would get handled via a champion (if the challenge were to be accepted) because a samurai is supposed to be able to defend his honor with steel even if that honor is being impugned by a non-bushi, but during a skirmish there's no need for that. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with just cutting down that courtier during a skirmish if he's on the opposing side. Basically, a challenge is appropriate if it will earn you glory and/or honor. Challenging an unworthy opponent shouldn't earn you either - regardless of what the challenge mechanic says. Pretty much the only way I can see a challenge to an inferior opponent being appropriate is if there's a pre-existing conflict of honor. Some nobody murdered your kid sister? Making it formal rather than just murdering them in turn is appropriate.

Using societal conventions to balance the game has been part and parcel of L5R since 1st edition (and John Wick has definitely moved even further in that direction since). If you think something shouldn't be happening, just look at the bushido code. Chances are you'll find a reason why whatever shouldn't be happening is dishonorable.

it makes sense, definitely; "must challenge UP", is the cleanest definition so far. simple and powerful.
it probably required one of those sidebar!

for the movement; both characters move at the start of the duel to a "spot" they agree upon, if they can't agree on a spot (because the player wants an advantage or whatever else) then the GM should start to hand out honor loss.

for the weapons, sure, bows work, spells too (if shugenja duel each others?), everything works and range doesn't matter. It requires a bit of juggling on the GM's part (especially when shugenja have stuff like earthquake) but probably manageable if your players don't argue too much...

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Indeed. The scene-within-a-scene is a Duel, not a Skirmish, and you're automatically in range of any weapon or technique simultaneously, so if you want to have a bow-versus-sword duel (think John Snow versus Ramsey Bolton*), or throw in invocations, go right ahead.

This is a duel which should be done honourably, but that's not the same as "you can only use a specific weapon" - you're on a battlefield, and someone trying to attack a shujenga on the battlefield should expect to have magic thrown at them (or else should have shouted something like "face me with steel" as part of the challenge....)

 

 

* Albeit without the shield

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1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

if shugenja duel each others?

Shugenja seem to have their own form of duel. The short story "Repentance Does Not Come First" describes one such event. It might be that each school (maybe even each element, in the Isawa case) has their own variation. In any case, I see those shugenja duels as a much rarer occurrence than bushi duels.

For shugenja engaging in duels with non-shugenja, I feel this would not be appropriate most of the time. Just like in the case of courtiers, a champion is likely going to be used. As for challenge/clash, I think shugenja would consider issuing/accepting against a non-shugenja as below them. Most shugenja are somewhat pacifists, and they will ask the kami for help in self/allies defense, or against Shadowland/maho threats, or in the case where there is a very good sincere reason (real or imagined) as described in the fiction named above. Remember that the kami might not take well to be asked for help for the wrong reasons, and saving one's honor/glory might be a wrong reason.

That said, some use of invocations by shugenja described in lore seem to defy all this, the Mantis being a good example. Stabilizing a docked ship to avoid the normal rolling motion from the waves seems frivolous. Creating storms to waylay ships and hide your own attacking ship seems quite unprovoked aggressive behavior. Maybe some shugenja would not think twice about proper duel etiquette and would just crush the challenger with a few well-placed invocations...

24 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

(or else should have shouted something like "face me with steel" as part of the challenge....)

Against a shugenja who only ever unsheathed their wakizashi for maintenance purposes, I'd say that would very much count as "challenging down".

Edited by Agasha Kanetake

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15 hours ago, Agasha Kanetake said:

Against a shugenja who only ever unsheathed their wakizashi for maintenance purposes, I'd say that would very much count as "challenging down".

Whilst I broadly agree, that depends very much on the Shujenga and the Samurai. One of the senior Kuni Purifiers, for example, is unlikely to be a slouch with a live blade. 

15 hours ago, Agasha Kanetake said:

That said, some use of invocations by shugenja described in lore seem to defy all this, the Mantis being a good example. Stabilizing a docked ship to avoid the normal rolling motion from the waves seems frivolous. Creating storms to waylay ships and hide your own attacking ship seems quite unprovoked aggressive behavior.

Well, water kami and air kami are described as generally leaning more to the 'playful trickster' side, so probably more susceptible to "look what I can do...." behaviour. Earth kami are more likely to get annoyed at you for being frivolous. 

 

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On 2/26/2019 at 5:42 PM, nameless ronin said:

They move towards one another and the clash happens where they meet. No teleporting or unlimited range actions. Considering the stakes put up, participants should not have much cause to avoid the confrontation.

Same, but also, no other actions until they do meet.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AK_Aramis said:

Same, but also, no other actions until they do meet.

I'm a bit on the fence about this. Same with the loss of your stake as the challenger if you make an Attack or Scheme action before the clash. It's supposed to be a narrative game. The narratives are ninjo and giri, strife and composure, honor and glory. I don't really want any arbitrary restrictions on what you can or can't do - if you do something that you shouldn't be doing, I'll hit you with an appropriate narrative penalty (just like you get a narrative reward if you do something you should be doing). If you want to do it anyway, that's fine: this narrative game makes the narrative come into play, that's what's supposed to happen. Putting in purely mechanical limitations to prevent someone from doing something that goes against the narrative kind of defeats the purpose of the game being narrative. 

Edited by nameless ronin

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

I'm a bit on the fence about this. Same with the loss of your stake as the challenger if you make an Attack or Scheme action before the clash. It's supposed to be a narrative game. The narratives are ninjo and giri, strife and composure, honor and glory. I don't really want any arbitrary restrictions on what you can or can't do - if you do something that you shouldn't be doing, I'll hit you with an appropriate narrative penalty (just like you get a narrative reward if you do something you should be doing). If you want to do it anyway, that's fine: this narrative game makes the narrative come into play, that's what's supposed to happen. Putting in purely mechanical limitations to prevent someone from doing something that goes against the narrative kind of defeats the purpose of the game being narrative. 

I should have said, "they may make no actions besides movement until at range 2 to start the clash proper"... 

 

It's worth noting that at range 6 or less, both moving in puts them at range 2 within 1 turn.

Edited by AK_Aramis

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