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TDMongo97

Blinded pilot and M9-G8

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I would say yes. Blinded Pilot states that "you" (as in the pilot that is blinded) can not modify his attack dice, it does not state that the dice can not be modified at all. Compare to the wording of Midnight.

I guess the potential problem is the wording of M9 that could be read as it's not actually the M9 modifying the dice but forcing the attacker to modify his own dice.

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26 minutes ago, mcgreag said:

I would say yes. Blinded Pilot states that "you" (as in the pilot that is blinded) can not modify his attack dice, it does not state that the dice can not be modified at all. Compare to the wording of Midnight.

I guess the potential problem is the wording of M9 that could be read as it's not actually the M9 modifying the dice but forcing the attacker to modify his own dice.

The second part is correct. M9 specifically says "....the attacker re-rolls that dice." So if the attacker has a Blinded Pilot crit, than M9 cannot let him re-roll a die. 

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Blinded_Pilot.png

Swz25_m9-g8_a1.png

 

@mcgreag is right and wrong. ^_^ blinded pilot doesn't state that your dice cannot be modified, it states you can only modify them in a specific way. the ship carrying M9-G8 is the ship choosing which die that will be rerolled, but it also states that it's the attacker that rerolls it. since the attacker has the extended capacity (!?) to only modify their dice by spending (force) for their default effect, no dice are eligible to be rerolled.

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On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 9:34 AM, meffo said:

since the attacker has the extended capacity (!?) to only modify their dice by spending (force) for their default effect, no dice are eligible to be rerolled.

I do not agree with this conclusion. The reason is that the modification is coming from the M9-G8 equipped ship (you refers to the ship)who rerolls it should be irrelevant. Unless, as implied above, that M9-G8 isn't doing the mod but is actually forcing the attacker to mod... are there any other examples of this? If so, then I would agree.

Interesting.

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I haven't done a deep scan through the cards and X-Wing abilities but the only other ability I found that allows another ship to modify an attacker's dice is the revealed Count Dooku crew and his card uses the same phrasing as M9-G8.  So if you are of the opinion that forcing another ship to modify its dice still counts as that ship modifying its own dice, then I am unaware of any ability that would modify the attack dice of a blinded pilot.  Aside from spending a force token for its default effect of course.

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1 hour ago, joeshmoe554 said:

I haven't done a deep scan through the cards and X-Wing abilities but the only other ability I found that allows another ship to modify an attacker's dice is the revealed Count Dooku crew and his card uses the same phrasing as M9-G8.  So if you are of the opinion that forcing another ship to modify its dice still counts as that ship modifying its own dice, then I am unaware of any ability that would modify the attack dice of a blinded pilot.  Aside from spending a force token for its default effect of course.

The one ability you're looking for would, IMHO, be Han Solo's [Rebel] pilot skill that is explicitly not being treated as a reroll and (inheritedly) not being treated as a modification, having the latter simply being defined in RR as any of the four operations: re-rolling, changing, spending, and adding. Any other result manipulation is not a modification (most prominently - cancellation) and Han is doing none of the four, just his own wicked thing. 

As for the M9-G8, to my reading he quite explicitly explains who is the one that re-rolls the die.  If I were to judge, I'd say it's impossible to influence a Blinded Pilot suffering ship with the astro, given that the attacker is forbidden from modifying their dice, while he's directly asked by the bot to do so. 

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13 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

The one ability you're looking for would, IMHO, be Han Solo's [Rebel] pilot skill that is explicitly not being treated as a reroll and (inheritedly) not being treated as a modification, having the latter simply being defined in RR as any of the four operations: re-rolling, changing, spending, and adding. Any other result manipulation is not a modification (most prominently - cancellation) and Han is doing none of the four, just his own wicked thing. 

He is still modifying HIS dice (whether it counts as a modification or not).  I was looking for an ability that modifies a different ship's attack dice.

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22 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

He is still modifying HIS dice (whether it counts as a modification or not).  I was looking for an ability that modifies a different ship's attack dice.

Ah alright, I misunderstood you as not seeing a single ability that would "bypass" Blinded Pilot in general. Touche. 

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59 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

He is still modifying HIS dice (whether it counts as a modification or not).  I was looking for an ability that modifies a different ship's attack dice.

Well. Juke modifies another ships dice. But not the attack dice

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3 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

I do not agree with this conclusion. The reason is that the modification is coming from the M9-G8 equipped ship (you refers to the ship)who rerolls it should be irrelevant. Unless, as implied above, that M9-G8 isn't doing the mod but is actually forcing the attacker to mod... are there any other examples of this? If so, then I would agree.

Interesting.

Capture.jpg

the attacker in this scenario is the ship affected by blinded pilot. the attacker is not the player who owns the ship.

the effect from m9-g8 obviously belongs to the ship that has it equipped. the effect is not rerolling an attack die, the effect is making another ship reroll its attack die. if the other ship cannot reroll its attack die, m9-g8 doesn't work.

i don't see why there would be any question as to who is doing the reroll. the effect on m9-g8 clearly states "the attacker rerolls that die.".

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This seems like a good candidate for a rules question since in First Edition the ruling was the opposite of what most people seem to be siding with here, and there is nothing in the rules reference to determine definitively who the source of the modification is for cards like M9-G8, L3-37 (crew), or Count Dooku (crew).

Now if only I could submit the question form without getting a 403 error. ☹️

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1 hour ago, meffo said:

here's an example to compare to.

Swz04_l3-37_upgrade.png

Thank you for the examples. In both examples, I think anyway, that even though the attacker is doing the re rolling (it's attack dice being affected after all) the modification is coming from the ship equipped with the card (m9-g8 or l337). and don't both these cards trigger in the defender's modification window, not the attacker's? Blinded Pilot was designed to hamper the attacker's modifications, not the defender's.

Anyway, That's the way I am looking at it. I appreciate the civil thought filled discussion.

I do not feel that Blinded pilot stopping L3-37 or M9-G8 is intended in any way. But perceived intention is subjective.  Gotta go by RAW.

 

 

Edited by PanchoX1

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5 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

Thank you for the examples. In both examples, I think anyway, that even though the attacker is doing the re rolling (it's attack dice being affected after all) the modification is coming from the ship equipped with the card (m9-g8 or l337). and don't both these cards trigger in the defender's modification window, not the attacker's? Blinded Pilot was designed to hamper the attacker's modifications, not the defender's.

Anyway, That's the way I am looking at it. I appreciate the civil thought filled discussion.

I do not feel that Blinded pilot stopping L3-37 or M9-G8 is intended in any way. But perceived intention is subjective.  Gotta go by RAW.

The rules reference says this for the Modify Attack Dice step:

"Modify Attack Dice: The players resolve abilities that modify the attack dice. The defending player resolves their abilities first, then the attacking player resolves their abilities."

So L3-37 and Count Dooku would definitely occur in the defender's modification window since those abilities belong to the defending player.  M9-G8's timing depends on whether the ability is on one of the attacking player's ships or the defending player's ships.

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7 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

Thank you for the examples. In both examples, I think anyway, that even though the attacker is doing the re rolling (it's attack dice being affected after all) the modification is coming from the ship equipped with the card (m9-g8 or l337). and don't both these cards trigger in the defender's modification window, not the attacker's? Blinded Pilot was designed to hamper the attacker's modifications, not the defender's.

 Anyway, That's the way I am looking at it. I appreciate the civil thought filled discussion.

I do not feel that Blinded pilot stopping L3-37 or M9-G8 is intended in any way. But perceived intention is subjective.  Gotta go by RAW.

 

agreed. the modification is coming from the cards, but it's not the cards that're doing the modification as per their texts. the attacking ship is the ship rerolling and therefore it's the attacking ship that's doing the modification.

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Perhaps this helps.

Player 1 using Han Solo with a blinded pilot.

Player 2 with Poe and M9-G8

Player 1 rolls 3 attack dice getting focus, hit, blank.

Player 2 uses M9-G8 to force the reroll of the hit into a blank.

Player 1 cannot modify dice without a force user because the game effect of the Blinded pilot card takes precedence which gives clear instructions as to HOW dice may be modified.

The hint is in the wording.  The attacker may not modify their defense dice, it says nothing on the card about the defender modifying the attack dice.

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39 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

The attacker may not modify their defense dice, it says nothing on the card about the defender modifying the attack dice.

You're correct, but imho the wording precisely says so that it's not the defender that does the modification. After all, it says "the attacker rerolls ..." 

I'd compare it with Juke, that, unlike M9-G8, words the effect so that the owner of the card is the one modifying the results. 

Quote

While you perform an attack, if you are evading, you may change 1 of the defender's Icon action evade results to a Icon action focus result.

It might have said "the defender changes 1 Icon action evade to a Icon action focus result" but it doesn't and I have a feeling it doesn't for a reason. 

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