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Darth Seridur

Talon Roll Ruling required, FFG

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38 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The rules were unclear enough for decently-skilled judges to view them a different way, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.  FFG needs to write a treatise on exactly WTF Han Solo even means, but a controversial call in a major tournament seems like a pretty decent standard for needing an official clarification.

in my opinion, this is clearly down to fatigue. you don't rule like that if you're feeling well, just like you don't turn the wrong way and fly off the board in the finals at a major event. the tournament consisted of too many games in too short a time, diluting the quality of play.

well, we can only speculate. i think the rules are clear. clarification is, of course, desirable. at least as long as it's really clarification and not further contradictions. adding to the pinned post on top of this forum is not enough, the RR should be updated in that case. i still think there are higher priorities in terms of rules clarifications, though.

here are a few examples:

end phase timing - electronic baffles interaction with quickdraw/tavson. what happens to tokens and when?
nien nunb multiple stress - can tokens be gained several at once or is it always one at a time?
han solo (rebel pilot) - is his ability considered a dice modification?
replacement effects - how does feedback array interact with static discharge vanes? what about overseer yushyns interaction with foreman proach?
can you fail a spacetug tractor array or i'll show you the dark side action, thus triggering composure?
can dalan oberos (kimogila) use his ability even when he has full shields?
how does petty officer thanissons (crew) ability function with lock tokens?
can you loose a docked escape crafts shields when you have the landos millenium falcon title equipped, or only spend them?

Edited by meffo

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And

Can Qi'ra shoot on a locked rock

Can Rhymer shoot at range 0

Seriously, I'm baffled that there is still no new RR after what 6 months and a new wave?!? It is that long to just decide what to do with these ruling?!? 

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6 minutes ago, muribundi said:

Seriously, I'm baffled that there is still no new RR after what 6 months and a new wave?!? It is that long to just decide what to do with these ruling?!? 

With everything they're going to have to put in that is being added by Wave 3 there should be an update in the next month or so.

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1 hour ago, meffo said:

well, we can only speculate. i think the rules are clear. clarification is, of course, desirable. at least as long as it's really clarification and not further contradictions. adding to the pinned post on top of this forum is not enough, the RR should be updated in that case.

I dunno.  I kinda think a new entry in the pinned posts would be good enough for this.  A little "For Talon Rolls, a maneuver is fully executed when XYZ..." or such.  There's no question for any other advanced maneuvers, since the footprint is exactly the same as a standard maneuver.

I know getting official clarifications and rulings from FFG is like drawing blood from a stone, but good practice for a reasonable company would be at least a paragraph in a pinned thread in the forum per controversial call in a major tournament.

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sorry. i need to apologize, because this is going to sound harsh, but wow, just wow.

i just watched this back on twitch (only had it in the background and didn't pay attention when it was live). and wow. that's actually pretty outrageous. the marshal comments and has complete tunnel vision, only mentioning the first sentence in the paragraph, completely ignoring the other rules the section about tallon rolls references, such as barrel rolling, or even taking the meaning of the term bearing and what it constitutes into account when determining whether a maneuver is fully executed. his argument is completely in conflict with how an overlap works. you don't move a ship forwards and try to turn it to see if you fit. you place a ship at it's final position and if it doesn't fit, you move it backwards. there is a whole section detailing it on page 17 of the rules reference.

what's even worse is how the flow of the game is suddenly interupted by a marshal stepping in and stopping the players from resolving the maneuver in a completely legal and satisfactory manner, instead deciding to time out the game and incorrectly determine the outcome of the tallon roll. vader would obviously have fit aligning the hash mark to the front of the template.

the stream chat is a lot of "didn't know that, but the marshal is obviously right." with a few heroes just calling the ruling out as wrong.

meanwhile, europeans are all like "i'm sure our marshal would rule it correctly. i.e not the canadian way." and "of course i would rule against the canadian TO!".

oh my, oh my, that's not a good move by the marshal. i feel so sorry for him and the players.

you don't know or understand the rules unless you read them. expecting every paragraph in the rules reference to work in a vacuum is absurd. all rules and abilities in this game are dependant on other rules and abilities. if you don't know the rules, you shouldn't be a marshal for a big event.

someone in chat summarizes it best:

"i learned that something can be ruled wrong, despite the entire x-wing community playing it the correct way for years. that's all i learned."

hilarious. and tragical.

 

Edited by meffo

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Unfortunately I think that we are stuck with a first cause paradox from the way FFG decided to word this rule. In order to place the ship at the end of the template, you have to fully execute the maneuver, but in order to check if you fully execute the maneuver you have to place the ship at the end of the template. Which one happens first? 

I think the rule is just broken as written and needs to be updated or FAQ'd. Until then, it just has to be Marshall's choice. 

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1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

Unfortunately I think that we are stuck with a first cause paradox from the way FFG decided to word this rule. In order to place the ship at the end of the template, you have to fully execute the maneuver, but in order to check if you fully execute the maneuver you have to place the ship at the end of the template. Which one happens first? 

I think the rule is just broken as written and needs to be updated or FAQ'd. Until then, it just has to be Marshall's choice. 

To me, I try to make a lot happen with the Overlap rule which is about not whether your ship does overlap, but would overlap.  In my mind, I can use the would instead of does to look into the hypothetical future, to see if a rotated/aligned ship would fit, before officially doing the rotation.  My physical actions are essentially the same, but officially I'm not rotating my ship until after I've checked the final position of the rotated ship.  That's kind of a dodge, because I believe a paradox is an untenable situation, and ought to be resolved through some sophistry or another.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/25/2019 at 5:39 PM, Hiemfire said:

With everything they're going to have to put in that is being added by Wave 3 there should be an update in the next month or so.

I sure hope so!

Also, I like @meffo's list at the top of this page. A list of contested/frequently-requested rulings deserves it's own thread...

Edited by nitrobenz
meffo's list

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On 2/25/2019 at 6:40 PM, theBitterFig said:

There's no question for any other advanced maneuvers, since the footprint is exactly the same as a standard maneuver.

The only other one I can think of is "if a U-Wing tries to rotate a quarter turn and can't fit (because of bumping nubs), can it choose to rotate halfway around instead, or is it forced to remain stuck?"

Also, I like @meffo's suggestion of a pinned thread for "frequently requested rulings," I'm just worried that it would turn into another debate over intent vs printed wording, without an FFG moderator to keep the thread clean... and in that case, why wouldn't FFG just answer the questions directly?

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This of a funny thread. There are people saying TO was wrong, others saying TO is right. Then there are people saying the rules are fine and don't need clarification, but clearly there's a lot of debate about it. Then there are people who are saying they feel bad for the judge for making the wrong call for whatever reason. But here's the thing--as demonstrated by this thread, it's not as clear cut as it should be. Because of the stepwise instructions as written, in conjunction with the rules described elsewhere, I would not be surprised to find out that judge feels just as right about his call now as he did at the time-and he'd be justified.

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Posted (edited)

"If the ship fully executes the maneuver, before placing the ship on the opposite end of the template.."

 

This confuses me a lot because I was under the impression that you determined if you were fully executing by placing a ship in it's final orientation to see if it fits.  This statement seems to imply that the ship isn't on the table when determining if it overlaps which seems really counter intuitive and is probably the source of the issue.

 

There's also another problem, rotating your ship 90 degrees isn't optional, but if you're only determining if you fully execute off of the hard 3 turn, you could theoretically have a position that is legal for a hard 3 turn, but causes overlaps upon rotating (imagine a super tight fight where the nubs bump when turned).  This could result in a situation where you have fully executed a maneuver, but would still be overlapping.  In this respect, I think the language "If the ship fully executes" is erroneous as you has you determining if you have fully executed the maneuver far too early in the process.

Edited by MasterShake2

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If you fail a K-Turn by bumping, you move in a forward direction until you overlap, and still take the stress.

The same happens with an S-Loop.

Why would it be different with a Tallon Roll?

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Overlapping/bumping with a K-turn or S-loop is clear cut. Either you are overlapping at your desired location, or you are not.

For a T-roll, it is different. The entire argument is about whether or not you check for an overlap before or after the 'rotational' part of the move. You could face a situation where if you performed a standard turn, you would overlap, but if you were T-rolling you would not (due to being able to align your base with one of three end-points). This could make a world of difference at a key moment in a game, as happened in the game which kicked all this off.

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If the ship fully executes the maneuver, before the player places the ship at the opposite end of the template, the ship is rotated 90o to the left for a 󲁢, or 90o to the right for a 󲁦. Then the player places the ship with the hashmark on the side of the base aligned to the left, middle, or right of the end of the template, (similar to a barrel roll).

1

Ok.  So there are the particulars of the Tallon Roll.

Now, it clearly states that you can only rotate align the ship in F/M/R in the ship would fully complete the manoeuvre.

So, it is fairly clear there that, like the K-Turn and S-Loop, the basic manoeuvre must be able to be completed first.

Sounds like the judge actually got it right.

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1 hour ago, Damo1701 said:

Ok.  So there are the particulars of the Tallon Roll.

Now, it clearly states that you can only rotate align the ship in F/M/R in the ship would fully complete the manoeuvre.

So, it is fairly clear there that, like the K-Turn and S-Loop, the basic manoeuvre must be able to be completed first.

Sounds like the judge actually got it right.

You only rotate the ship if it fully completes the Talon Roll maneuver, and since you rotate the ship before placing it when executing a talon roll, you need to rotate the ship to determine if it completes the Talon Roll maneuver in order to determine whether or not you rotate the ship.

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9 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

Ok.  So there are the particulars of the Tallon Roll.

Now, it clearly states that you can only rotate align the ship in F/M/R in the ship would fully complete the manoeuvre.

So, it is fairly clear there that, like the K-Turn and S-Loop, the basic manoeuvre must be able to be completed first.

Sounds like the judge actually got it right.

The rules do not state you perform a normal turn manoeuvre when Tallon rolling, so you would not place or attempt to place the ship on the table prior the rotation. Reference to fully executing the manoeuvre and rotating (in my opinion) covers the situation when there is a ship in a blocking position preventing the Tallon-rolling fighter from resolving any of the three final positions.

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9 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

Ok.  So there are the particulars of the Tallon Roll.

Now, it clearly states that you can only rotate align the ship in F/M/R in the ship would fully complete the manoeuvre.

So, it is fairly clear there that, like the K-Turn and S-Loop, the basic manoeuvre must be able to be completed first.

Sounds like the judge actually got it right.

 

8 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

You only rotate the ship if it fully completes the Talon Roll maneuver, and since you rotate the ship before placing it when executing a talon roll, you need to rotate the ship to determine if it completes the Talon Roll maneuver in order to determine whether or not you rotate the ship.

 

23 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

The rules do not state you perform a normal turn manoeuvre when Tallon rolling, so you would not place or attempt to place the ship on the table prior the rotation. Reference to fully executing the manoeuvre and rotating (in my opinion) covers the situation when there is a ship in a blocking position preventing the Tallon-rolling fighter from resolving any of the three final positions.

And thus the need for the rules to be clearer.

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9 hours ago, Damo1701 said:
 

If the ship fully executes the maneuver, before the player places the ship at the opposite end of the template, the ship is rotated 90o

That's the part that is conditional.  If you cannot fit the ship before rotating, you can't rotate.  Not entirely sure what is unclear here.

If I try to reverse around a corner, tight to the kerb, and there is a delivery van between me and my target space, do I complete the manoeuvre regardless of crashing into the van because there is space behind it, or, do I have to stop, reposition myself, and do something differently?

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

That's the part that is conditional.  If you cannot fit the ship before rotating, you can't rotate.  Not entirely sure what is unclear here.

If I try to reverse around a corner, tight to the kerb, and there is a delivery van between me and my target space, do I complete the manoeuvre regardless of crashing into the van because there is space behind it, or, do I have to stop, reposition myself, and do something differently?

The rules do not state that you have to complete a standard turn before rotating. If the rules said that, this entire thread would not exist.

The rules state that once the manoeuvre is fully executed, before you place your ship, you rotate. What is needed from FFG is a precise definition of what 'fully executed' means in this context; does it mean that you must be able to perform a standard turn, complete with placing the ship in an unrotated state? Or does it mean that you get to check the three potential rotated end positions, with the manoeuvre failing to fully execute if all three of the positions are blocked?

Edited by AceDogbert

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Posted (edited)

please do not interpret the rules out of context.

"OVERLAP
While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it overlaps an object if the ship’s final position would physically be on top of an object.
A ship fully executes a maneuver if it does not overlap a ship. If a ship executes a maneuver and overlaps a ship, it must partially execute that maneuver by performing the following steps:
1. Move the ship backward along the template until it is no longer on top of any other ships. While doing so, adjust t he position of the ship so that the hashmarks in the middle of both sets of guides remains centered over the line down the middle of the template.
2. Once the ship is no longer on top of any other ship, place it so that it is touching the last ship it backed over. This may result in the ship returning to its starting position.
3. The ship skips its Perform Action step.
• Even though a ship that partially executes a maneuver must skip its Perform Action step, it can still perform actions granted from other game effects.
• Even if a ship partially executes a maneuver, it is still treated as having executed a maneuver of the indicated speed, bearing, and difficulty.


PARTIALLY EXECUTE
See Overlap."

- page 14 of the RR.

there is nothing that's unclear about how it works. how ever, the rules about talon rolls are a bit poorly worded, allowing for some confusion when reading them on their own. if you do read them and actually bother to go on and read the other rules they refer to, they are clear. they should be revised so people don't get confused by them.

overlapping is only determined by a ships final position. requiring a player to execute a basic maneuver using the same template as the one he or she is talon rolling with to be able to fully execute a talon roll maneuver har no real basis in the rules what so ever. 

Edited by meffo

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On 3/18/2019 at 7:59 AM, Damo1701 said:

If you fail a K-Turn by bumping, you move in a forward direction until you overlap, and still take the stress.

The same happens with an S-Loop.

Why would it be different with a Tallon Roll?

no. you never move a ship forwards, you move it to the other end of a template and attempt to place it. if you fail, you move it backwards along the template until you fit. at least according to the rules.

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7 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

If I try to reverse around a corner, tight to the kerb, and there is a delivery van between me and my target space, do I complete the manoeuvre regardless of crashing into the van because there is space behind it, or, do I have to stop, reposition myself, and do something differently?

If you try to drive a car through an alleyway, as long as the alleyway is aligned with and wider than the license plate, and you're going fast enough, you can make it to the other side.

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