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eagletsi111

Better Wording Clarification on Reinforce tokens work???

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Can we get a more concise wording on how reinforce work.    According to Raw,  a Reinforce token cannot actually work because of the wording.   Here are both steps:

 

During the Neutralize Results step, if the attack would hit and there is more than one hit/crit remaining, one evade result is added to cancel one result. • A ship can have more than one reinforce token. If a ship has multiple of the same type of reinforce token, their effects are applied one at a time. Thus, for two reinforce tokens to both apply their effect, there would need to be at least three Hits/Crits results remaining.  When a ship gains a reinforce token, unless specified otherwise, the player that controls that ship chooses whether it gains a fore reinforce token or an aft reinforce token. • A ship does not spend the reinforce token when resolving its effect. • If an ability instructs a ship to gain one reinforce token, this is different than performing a reinforce action. A ship that gains the token without performing the action can still perform the reinforce action this round.

 

Neutralize Results: During this step, pairs of attack and defense dice neutralize each other. Dice are neutralized in the following order:

            a. Pairs of Evades and Hits results are canceled.

            b. Pairs of Evades and Crit results are canceled.

             The attack hits if at least one  Hit or Crit result remains uncanceled; otherwise, the attack misses.

 

Intention:

Reinforce token:  What I think FFG is trying to say,  if after the attack hits,  and you have 1 more hits/crits  remaining then the defender has reinforce tokens ,  remove one of those hits for each token, but do not remove your reinforce token.        This is the Intention of how a reinforce works.   Basically, if you are hit and have 1 more damage then the number of reinforce tokens you always take 1.

 

How some people read and play it:

However, by stating one evade result is added to cancel one result they have muddied the waters for some, because you have already passed the step where you use evades to cancel results.        Our TO and some others who I have talked to believe that you it adds and evade result,    so if you take 2 and roll 1 evade and have a reinforce you take 0 Damage!.   Because you add and evade to cancel it in step A, they are saying that yes you took two hits,  one evade and a added evade cancel both and you get no damage.      

 

This can be solved by a simple update to Neutralize Results as follows:

Neutralize Results: During this step, pairs of attack and defense dice neutralize each other. Dice are neutralized in the following order:

            a. Pairs of Evades and Hits results are canceled.

            b. Pairs of Evades and Crit results are canceled.

            c.  The attack hits if at least one  Hit or Crit result remains uncanceled; otherwise, the attack misses.

            d.  Reinforce Tokens:  if after the attack hits,  and you have 1 more hits/crits  remaining then the defender has reinforce tokens ,  remove one of those hits for each token, but do not remove your reinforce token.  

 

This is becoming a major issue,  this simple update would fix that.    Please add this update to the X-wing  Official Rulings as people are started to not play at our store and others, because there 2 dice ties cannot get past Bobba or Wookies.            

 

Thanks FFG

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by eagletsi111

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It says right in the rules Reference (pg 15.)

Quote

A ship can have more than one reinforce token. If a ship has multiple of the same type of reinforce token, their effects are applied one at a time. Thus, for two reinforce tokens to both apply their effect, there would need to be at least three hit/crit results remaining

EDIT: I see that you quoted it. I don't understand the problem. How are ships getting multiple reinforce tokens in your group?

Edited by impspy
Emphasis added

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I agree.   I'm just telling you how other rule it.     Spending an evade to cancel is in step a.    So if by it's wording your infact spending an evade, then you are going back to step A, which is when you also spend your evades to cancel dice.        

 

I get  what they are saying, but our store and other rules differently.   Which means your Awing can shoot at a Wookie reinforced with one token and get 2 hits.    If he rolls an evade on his one dice, they are stating he takes Zero Damage!       Lots of people think this because they stated add an Evade Result.   They just need to clarify it.    People are very literal today.       Especially the young ones.     :)      Anyway,  if they don't fix it my SC is going to use this rule which means I'm definitely flying Bobba for sure!

Edited by eagletsi111

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8 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

I aI get  what they are saying, but our store and other rules differently.   Which means your Awing can shoot at a Wookie reinforced with one token and get 2 hits.    If he rolls an evade on his one dice, they are stating he takes Zero Damage!       Lots of people think this because they stated add an Evade Result. 

The way you're describing it is how it works...

 

...in First Edition.

Even if you don't think the rule is clearly stated, the verbiage:

Quote

During the Neutralize Results step, if the attack would hit and there is more than one hit/crit result remaining, one evade result is added to cancel one result.

...rather explicitly states it.

Edited by impspy

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Actually,  It doesn't   When do you apply evade results.   In step a.   So it's is saying to go back to step a and add an evade result to step  if there are more hits and reinforce tokens remaining.  

 

So you take 2 hits.   You roll 1 evade.        You get to the reinforce token,   You are not out of the neutralize results step, yet.     You have taken 2 hits, and not spent your evade from the dice yet.    So it says if you take 2 or more add an evade.   Now back to step  to apply evade results,   now you have 1 evade on the dice and an extra evade because of the reinforce, so both hits are cancelled.                  By the exact wording of the rules.      They need to say after the Neutralize results step, but before the apply damage step,  that is where the Reinforce rules need to be.    

For instance,  If you roll 2 red dice and get 2 hits.       Is that not two hits.  (this is their argument)   (yes it is)     And since it says during the Neutralize,  they are interpreting that you can take the reinforce to add and extra evade.

 

I agree, I know what FFG is stating, but lots of people don't see it that way.    And as such will play it the way it is written not the way it was intended.         

Our SC and others will play it this way,  we have people not coming to our store over this very argument.     

If FFG will just clarify the time of it,   this argument can be put to bed.    I sure most of these players are 1.0 players, so unless you 100% clarify timing,  which is not here.    this type of stuff happens.

 

 

 

 

Edited by eagletsi111

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20 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

Actually,  It doesn't   When do you apply evade results.   In step a.   So it's is saying to go back to step a and add an evade result to step  if there are more hits and reinforce tokens remaining.  

 

So you take 2 hits.   You roll 1 evade.        You get to the reinforce token,   You are not out of the neutralize results step, yet.     You have taken 2 hits, and not spent your evade from the dice yet.    So it says if you take 2 or more add an evade.   Now back to step  to apply evade results,   now you have 1 evade on the dice and an extra evade because of the reinforce, so both hits are cancelled.                  By the exact wording of the rules.      They need to say after the Neutralize results step, but before the apply damage step,  that is where the Reinforce rules need to be.    

For instance,  If you roll 2 red dice and get 2 hits.       Is that not two hits.  (this is their argument)   (yes it is)     And since it says during the Neutralize,  they are interpreting that you can take the reinforce to add and extra evade.

 

I agree, I know what FFG is stating, but lots of people don't see it that way.    And as such will play it the way it is written not the way it was intended.         

Our SC and others will play it this way,  we have people not coming to our store over this very argument.     

 

 

 

I don't blame people for not coming to your store if the people running the events there are going to unbalance the game in ways that were never intended by applying basic rules incorrectly.

Your TO is just plain wrong. Reinforce does not work the way your TO has ruled it works. Your TO is ignoring the word "REMAINING" in the Reinforce rules, and it's an important word. Reinforce doesn't care how many results were rolled. It cares how many of those results remain, or would remain, after results are cancelled.

If it helps, point your TO to the rulebook. On page 17, it describes Reinforce:

Quote

When a reinforced ship defends, if the attacker is in only the full arc ([front] or [rear]) matching the token (fore or aft respectively), reduce the damage the attack deals by 1, to a minimum of 1.

This makes it clear that Reinforce is intended to add and apply the extra evade after results are cancelled. If your TO continues to insist on an incorrect and game-breaking ruling, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe organize your own X-wing night at the gaming store or somewhere else until such a time as FFG makes a clarification? Maybe make a post in the Rules forum asking other TOs to chime in on the ruling and ask their advice?

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Except that, during the Neutralize Results step of attacking, you don't get to check to see if the attack hits until AFTER all relevant pairs of dice have been cancelled.

Part A) An available evade result cancels an available hit result.  Both results are removed, per the rule for cancelling dice (RRG p7).  Repeat as relevant.

Part B) An available evade result cancels an available crit result.  Again, both results are removed; again, repeat as relevant.

It is only after you get to here that you get to check to see if the attacker has any hit/crit results remaining.  The game mechanics don't know if the attack will hit until this point, which is what triggers the effect of the reinforce token (if the attacker is in the correct arc, of course).

So now, the reinforce rule enters the ability queue (temporarily interrupting the basic sequence of the attack) and looks at the number of remaining (uncancelled) hit/crit results.  If the answer is two or more, then an evade result is added, which is specifically allowed to cancel a result even though by a pedantic reading of the attack sequence you've already passed the window at which results should be cancelled.

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When a reinforced ship defends, if the attacker is in only the full arc ([front] or [rear]) matching the token (fore or aft respectively), reduce the damage the attack deals by 1, to a minimum of 1.

I love this.   but when I send it to him.   The first thing he is going to say is ok.    So it reduces the damage the attack deals by 1, so now I roll and evade and get and evade which I can then remove that 1.     this is why the timing is so important.   If they just add it to say after the Neutralize results step and before the apply damage step.     This is would be 100% clear.        Since they have not stated what comes first reinforce or evade, this is where our TO sees it his way and da heck with everyone else.          I have no other store to go to and both of mine in the area play this way instead of as Intended.     

 

 

Edited by eagletsi111

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Except the rulebook doesn't say "reduce the number of hits/crits by 1."

It says "reduce the damage the attack deals by 1."

So again my only advice would be, appeal in the rules forums to see if you can get a bunch of TOs to chime in and convince your guy, in the meantime see if you can organize your own X-wing games. Maybe in someone's basement or something, or at an open gaming night at one of your stores.

Edited by Maui.

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27 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

So it reduces the damage the attack deals by 1, so now I roll and evade and get and evade which I can then remove that 1.     this is why the timing is so important.   If they just add it to say after the Neutralize results step and before the apply damage step.     This is would be 100% clear.        Since they have not stated what comes first reinforce or evade

Wait, what?  No.  I don't know where y'all are getting your information, but all of you really need to sit down and read the rules reference that is available on the FFG site (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/) go to support; it's in the rules section.  Let me copy and paste a couple of pieces for you:

From the Attack section, page 5:

image.png.b74eb10e51fdb0441989249532e5ebbb.png

From the Reinforce section, page 15:

image.png.fc6b68249a4050b0a127a25c0173f346.png

There is NO reading of that which allows a reinforce token to apply before defence dice are rolled.

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Yes.   If you read it.    It states add and evade result.    

That 's where his contention is.

I totally agree.   I need someone else to argue it.       I'm hoping FFG gets involved and clearly states the timing.     Because he won;t budge

 

 

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7 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

Yes.   If you read it.    It states add and evade result.    

That 's where his contention is.

I totally agree.   I need someone else to argue it.       I'm hoping FFG gets involved and clearly states the timing.     Because he won;t budge

 

 

It does clearly state the timing - 'During the Neutralise Results step, if the attack would hit' is the timing.

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The timing is ALREADY clearly stated.  There are literally zero other ways to interpret that text that matches the words that are on the page.

Defence dice have already been rolled and modified before the attack gets to the Neutralize Results step (which is the stated timing of the Reinforce).  The results of the defense roll have already been cancelled and removed from play before you can decide if the attack hits or not.

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2 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

Actually,  It doesn't   When do you apply evade results.   In step a.   So it's is saying to go back to step a and add an evade result to step  if there are more hits and reinforce tokens remaining.  

 

So you take 2 hits.   You roll 1 evade.        You get to the reinforce token,   You are not out of the neutralize results step, yet.     You have taken 2 hits, and not spent your evade from the dice yet.    So it says if you take 2 or more add an evade.   Now back to step  to apply evade results,   now you have 1 evade on the dice and an extra evade because of the reinforce, so both hits are cancelled.                  By the exact wording of the rules.      They need to say after the Neutralize results step, but before the apply damage step,  that is where the Reinforce rules need to be.    

For instance,  If you roll 2 red dice and get 2 hits.       Is that not two hits.  (this is their argument)   (yes it is)     And since it says during the Neutralize,  they are interpreting that you can take the reinforce to add and extra evade.

 

I agree, I know what FFG is stating, but lots of people don't see it that way.    And as such will play it the way it is written not the way it was intended.         

Our SC and others will play it this way,  we have people not coming to our store over this very argument.     

If FFG will just clarify the time of it,   this argument can be put to bed.    I sure most of these players are 1.0 players, so unless you 100% clarify timing,  which is not here.    this type of stuff happens.

First of all, it seems folks are confused over what Reinforce actually is.  Reinforce is a damage reduction tool, not a damage prevention tool.  Take the Vt-49 for example.  An X-Wing attacks and scores 2 hits.  The VT-49 has no agility dice but is Reinforcing against the attack.  Damage is reduced by 1.  2 hits were scored, 1 evade result was granted for the token and the VT-49 takes 1 damage.  This is how it works.  If folks are trying to argue otherwise by being rules lawyers, I suspect the contention is deliberate.

Edited by Woobyluv

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