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Who's the fool?: Rule dispute.

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It's a fairly even trade, in my opinion: initiative vs not.

With initiative, you can powerfully deny your opponents position and also have variance information on your attack dice before your opponent. 

Without initiative, you can potentially react to your opponent's position and dodge their arcs. 

Good players have to be handy in both situations, but some prefer one style over the other and build squads around those concepts. 

There ya go.

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1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

OK just to be 100% clear:

First player is what would have been called initiative in 1e.  Initiative in 2e is the name for what was pilot skill in 1e, so there's a lot of terminology confusion.  I will use 2e terms from here on.

When you build your list, you can choose to spend as many or as few* points as you want, up to a maximum of 200.

*the minimum is actually 36, because you have to take at least two ships, and the cheapest two currently are a Z95 and an autopilot drone.

Before setup, both players confirm how many points they spent.

The player who has spent fewest points gets to choose whether they wish to be first player or second player.  In the event that both players spent the same, you randomise who gets the choice (most players I know do this by rolling a red die, and calling hits/crits versus eyes/blanks, which is 50:50).

Thereafter, one player will be first player, and the other will be second.

In the event of timing clashes, first player resolves their stuff first.  Then the second player resolves theirs

This can be *any* timing clashes, but most commonly this will be when two pilots have the same initiative value.  In these cases, the first player places their pilots first during setup (after all the pilots with lower initiative values, before the second player's ships with the same value).  They also move their ships with the same value first, and shoot with their ships with the same value first.  The second player will place their ships second in setup, move second, and shoot second.

Other timing clashes include, for instance, choosing whether to decloak and where to, whether to drop bombs and where, whether to use things like Sense and on which targets, triggers that resolve after attacking or defending etc etc.  In short, anything where things can happen at the same time.

 

Being second player is usually better than being first player when there are timing clashes, because x-wing has a whole host of things which are reactive to opponent movement, including arc dodging, target locking and other range-limited actions, and so on and so on, and because relatively few things rely on shooting first.  So most commonly, people underspend on their list in order to get the choice of whether to be first player, so they can choose to go second.


The fact that x-wing has a second player advantage, isn't dumb, any more than the fact that chess (and indeed most games) have a first player advantage is.  It is relatively unusual, however.

The whole blue moves issue has been dealt with.

Okay. That does clarify a lot. It's definitely a very strange way of things, but this is something I can show others I know who are equally confused. Thank you, genuinely.

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Don’t feel too bad about this. I played casually for years with people who were always confusing the rules and even now I find people who have things very wrong.

I completely understood player order and then took a break before 2.0 and then forgot how it worked. Like you, I assumed it wasn’t possible that you wouldn’t want Player 1 and swapped it in my mind. My son and I practiced for weeks doing it wrong and it wasn’t until an official event that we quickly got straightened out.

I’ll say that if you have these things confused, definitely check out Gold Squadron’s quick tips videos on YouTube. They clarify things like the change to barrel roll in 2.0 that a lot of people get wrong. This video on simultaneous fire and when to actually remove your ships (which I forget all the time playing casually) is very helpful:

 

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2 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

You're not helpful.

Do you... really not see the problem with your behaviour? You create an OP calling some other guy names (which you also got wrong), and then proceed to call the core elements of the rules stupid (or worse), but then you want the rest of us to be nice to you because your life is complex? Which, yes, we should generally be nice to each other because life is frigging complex. But be nice to that other guy, and to the game designers.

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3 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

That's stupid. Why would I ever want initiative?

>:[]

BUH

dear god why would I ever want initiative

That's stupid! Why reward THINKING about the right choice and not MAKING it?

WHY WOULD I WANT INITIATIVE

Do you even X wing bro?

Edited by BlodVargarna

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3 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

So... Just fatbuild to 200, and I'm almost always going to be able to move second? And here I was trying to stay ten points under to guarantee initiative. Dammit!

No, you will be at the mercy of your opponent if your opponent bids points- you will most likely be moving first and shooting first, as moving/shooting second helps arc-dodgers avoid fire.

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54 minutes ago, player3679152 said:

Do you... really not see the problem with your behaviour? You create an OP calling some other guy names (which you also got wrong), and then proceed to call the core elements of the rules stupid (or worse), but then you want the rest of us to be nice to you because your life is complex? Which, yes, we should generally be nice to each other because life is frigging complex. But be nice to that other guy, and to the game designers.

Well, I didn't call him those names, none of you know the guy, it's QUITE apparent I'm wrong to the point of not needing to admit it, but please, by all means, keep browbeating me. Go ahead, if it makes you feel better, keep ******* doing it.

47 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Do you even X wing bro?

I try to. But every time I turn around there's another dumb rule dispute I either don't understand or has just come up and it's frustrating.

19 minutes ago, Ikka said:

No, you will be at the mercy of your opponent if your opponent bids points- you will most likely be moving first and shooting first, as moving/shooting second helps arc-dodgers avoid fire.

I mean, if I don't want initiative, like, if my list genuinely doesn't want it, why shouldn't I fatbuild?

1 hour ago, dadocollin said:

Don’t feel too bad about this. I played casually for years with people who were always confusing the rules and even now I find people who have things very wrong.

I completely understood player order and then took a break before 2.0 and then forgot how it worked. Like you, I assumed it wasn’t possible that you wouldn’t want Player 1 and swapped it in my mind. My son and I practiced for weeks doing it wrong and it wasn’t until an official event that we quickly got straightened out.

I’ll say that if you have these things confused, definitely check out Gold Squadron’s quick tips videos on YouTube. They clarify things like the change to barrel roll in 2.0 that a lot of people get wrong. This video on simultaneous fire and when to actually remove your ships (which I forget all the time playing casually) is very helpful:

 

Thank you.

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Just now, Captain Lackwit said:

I mean, if I don't want initiative, like, if my list genuinely doesn't want it, why shouldn't I fatbuild?

If you don't care about being the order of moving/shooting, don't worry about bidding. There is a difference between wanting to go first/wanting to go second, and then not caring either way. If you don't care, you don't have to worry about bidding. If you want to either go first or go second, you may need to worry about bidding- how deep depends on your likely opponents; opponents that rely on arc-dodging generally have a bid so that they can make sure that they move second.

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3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

The fact that x-wing has a second player advantage, isn't dumb, any more than the fact that chess (and indeed most games) have a first player advantage is.  It is relatively unusual, however.

The fact that X-Wing has such a large advantage to not being First Player is kinda dumb, however.

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7 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I mean, if I don't want initiative, like, if my list genuinely doesn't want it, why shouldn't I fatbuild?

Some lists don't really care about going first or second, so that's exactly what they do.  Personally, all my lists tend to be in the 198-200 point range, precisely because I don't usually care.

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My God, this thread.  This thread.  I needed this today.  Thank you everyone.

Anyhoo…

Page 4 of the Rulebook.  Under "Fundamental Concepts", appropriately enough:

FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPTS:  Before learning the steps of the game, it is important to understand these basic concepts, since they are referenced in multiple sections.

INITIATIVE:  Each ship has an initiative value on its ship card and token.  Initiative represents the pilot’s reflexes, skill, or even luck.  Numerous elements of the game refer to initiative, but its primary function is to determine the order in which ships act.  The rules often instruct ships to act in initiative order, which means the ships take turns in numeric order. The rules will always specify whether to start with the lowest initiative (ascending order) or the highest initiative (descending order).

If a player has two or more ships with the same initiative, that player decides the order in which they act.  If both players have ships with the same initiative, those ships act in player order.  The player who receives the first player marker during setup is the first player; their ships of that initiative act first.  Then the other player’s ships of that initiative act.

 

5 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Some lists don't really care about going first or second, so that's exactly what they do.  Personally, all my lists tend to be in the 198-200 point range, precisely because I don't usually care.

To be honest, bidding wars usually only ever happen when fielding Initiative 6 pilots.  Any other Initiative level is probably going to want to make use of their available points.

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23 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

To be honest, bidding wars usually only ever happen when fielding Initiative 6 pilots.  Any other Initiative level is probably going to want to make use of their available points.

This is just straight up wrong in 2e, init 5 has been the placement of the biggest bidding war since day 1, because they priced init 6 out of the market in most cases, but didn't scale the price of init correctly below that point.  Plus, init 5 has vastly more of the ships that care significantly about init AND have significant options available at low expense.  And 6 is very rare (Vader, Wedge, Han, Han, Han, Poe, Dengar (lol), Fenn, Fenn, Quickdraw and Midnight is pretty much it, so still only just over 10 pilots).

 

(E: and Soontir, who is eminently forgettable in 2e due to no longer being an unkillable powerhouse but rather an eminently explodable paper bag full of nitroglycerine)

Edited by thespaceinvader

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4 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

To be honest, bidding wars usually only ever happen when fielding Initiative 6 pilots.  Any other Initiative level is probably going to want to make use of their available points.

Couldn’t be more wrong. The quantitative lack of i6 pilots relative to powerful i5 pilots means you’re far more likely to run into another i5, and thus the worst of the bidding occurs there. 

Edited by SpiderMana
******’ ninjas, man.

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11 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

No.

Because losing a shield is not the same as taking damage. 

Unless shields got louder in 2.0, that is.

"Taking Damage" (verb) means suffering a [hit] or [crit], whether or not it is on the shields.  This is relevant to something like Lieutenant Tavson in the Upsilon.

"Damaged" (adjective) means the state of having at least one damage card assigned to you.  Shields up, shields down, what matters is whether there is a damage card.  This is relevant to Del Meeko, Gideon Hask, or Wullffwarro.

If it's a card effect describing an event which is happening (verb): losing shields counts.

If it's a card effect describing a persistent ongoing state (adjective): it cares only about damage cards on the ship.

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23 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

This is just straight up wrong in 2e, init 5 has been the placement of the biggest bidding war since day 1, because they priced init 6 out of the market in most cases, but didn't scale the price of init correctly below that point.  Plus, init 5 has vastly more of the ships that care significantly about init AND have significant options available at low expense.  And 6 is very rare (Vader, Wedge, Han, Han, Han, Poe, Dengar (lol), Fenn, Fenn, Quickdraw and Midnight is pretty much it, so still only just over 10 pilots).

(E: and Soontir, who is eminently forgettable in 2e due to no longer being an unkillable powerhouse but rather an eminently explodable paper bag full of nitroglycerine)

 

23 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Couldn’t be more wrong. The quantitative lack of i6 pilots relative to powerful i5 pilots means you’re far more likely to run into another i5, and thus the worst of the bidding occurs there. 

Fair enough.  Allow me then to preface that statement with "in my experience" - which may still be wrong, but not for my local meta!  😂

It's still the top end of Initiative values that are taking the enlarged bids though, for rather obvious reasons.

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So, seems most people agree that going second is a pretty large advantage.  Also, playing reactively to your opponent's position is definitely easier than predicting it in the first place.

What then, do people think would happen if FFG eliminated the simultaneous fire rule?  If you want to move second, you'd risk your ships being removed before they got to fire.  Would that make a more even, or less even choice between being first player or second player?

Would this increased the bids people took, or decrease them?  Would people take more high init pilots, or fewer?

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