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KCDodger

Who's the fool?: Rule dispute.

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1 minute ago, millertime059 said:

Notable exceptions: Phantoms, particularly Whisper. Defenders to a lesser degree. Initiative 1 swarms. Ships that have triggers of damaged defenders (Del Meeko), Ot undamaged self (Pure Sabaac)

Phantoms don't wildly care in 2e.  They need to keep the evade token until the end of the round to get their cloak either way, so they'd much rather have the chance to arc dodge.  Defenders like not getting blocked, but all told would probably prefer to arc dodge as well.

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On the topic of blue maneuvers, I think the reason they clear stress even if you bump is because stress already tends to limit a ship’s options, and FFG probably didn’t want the opponent to be able to punish you even more than they already sometimes can for that limitation.  Especially when mechanics exist to give stress to an opponent.

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1 minute ago, Matanui3 said:

On the topic of blue maneuvers, I think the reason they clear stress even if you bump is because stress already tends to limit a ship’s options, and FFG probably didn’t want the opponent to be able to punish you even more than they already sometimes can for that limitation.  Especially when mechanics exist to give stress to an opponent.

It's also the converse of the rule that bumped reds give stress.

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3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

There are very, very few cases in 2e in which you want to take init.  1e had a few more, because Phantoms always wanted to be shooting first, because they could then shoot and get their free cloak, meaning they were defending with 4 dice instead of 2.  There are almost no cases in 2e where you really want to shoot first; Del Meeko's defence bonus and Wampa not losing his carge are about the onyl two offhand.  Maybe also Greedo gunner.

So if I can reposition like a loon, which I do thanks to A-Wings being AWESOME, I DON'T want initiative? wtf.

3 minutes ago, The Penguin UK said:

Ah, I see the contenders for 'Most pointless and useless thread 2019' are out early this year.


 

>:[

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

Anything with Juke wants to shoot first, so it can then spend its evade on defense.

Ships that can't re-position don't care as much.

Lower initiative can block higher initiative.

There's probably other reasons I'm forgetting. But most people are probably bidding to move second, yes.

So... Just fatbuild to 200, and I'm almost always going to be able to move second? And here I was trying to stay ten points under to guarantee initiative. Dammit!

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

There are very, very few cases in 2e in which you want to take init.  1e had a few more, because Phantoms always wanted to be shooting first, because they could then shoot and get their free cloak, meaning they were defending with 4 dice instead of 2.  There are almost no cases in 2e where you really want to shoot first; Del Meeko's defence bonus and Wampa not losing his carge are about the onyl two offhand.  Maybe also Greedo gunner.

._______________.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's neutral.  I'd prefer it if bidding were less of a thing, personally, but it's a part of the game, one way or the other.  I don't assign a value judgement to it, because you have to pay to get it.  If you really want toguarantee getting it, you probably have to pay 10+ points for the privilege.  I usually don't bother and I very rarely regret it.

Precisely what I've been doing and I thought I was doing something smart. Nope, turns out I'm a big dummy. :(

2 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Can't tell if troll thread for lulz or for serious.

How Krayt is Lackwit?

Fairly serious. Here's why.

1 minute ago, The Penguin UK said:

Really? The guy is clearly posting a pointless thread.

If he really doesn't know these two very simple rules with 7,000+ posts, I'll eat my hat.

I don't really have many chances to actually practice this game outside of flight sim? So, there's a lot I don't know. Like, legit, I've had maybe... three, outside the family games, and we NEVER agree on the rules at this house, or fully understand them. My life is a mess so try not to be a jerk about somebody not getting the rules entirely.

1 minute ago, Matanui3 said:

On the topic of blue maneuvers, I think the reason they clear stress even if you bump is because stress already tends to limit a ship’s options, and FFG probably didn’t want the opponent to be able to punish you even more than they already sometimes can for that limitation.  Especially when mechanics exist to give stress to an opponent.

I guess, it just seems extremely stupid to reward THINKING about doing well instead of ACTUALLY doing well.

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2 minutes ago, The Penguin UK said:

Really? The guy is clearly posting a pointless thread.

If he really doesn't know these two very simple rules with 7,000+ posts, I'll eat my hat.

The forum is here to help clear up questions like this dude. even veteran players will mix stuff up, since I'm sure all of us have other stuff going on in our lives besides this game. there are lots of rules, so questions will come up. no need to be hostile towards them.

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2 minutes ago, Hippie Moosen said:

The forum is here to help clear up questions like this dude. even veteran players will mix stuff up, since I'm sure all of us have other stuff going on in our lives besides this game. there are lots of rules, so questions will come up. no need to be hostile towards them.

Thank you.

I'm the kind of person that easily misunderstands rules and whatnot. I need very clear explanations!

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6 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

So... Just fatbuild to 200, and I'm almost always going to be able to move second? And here I was trying to stay ten points under to guarantee initiative. Dammit!

No, the player with fewer points spent chooses.

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@Captain Lackwit my dude this is why you gotta ask the questions first, amirite?

 

In gaming, having the initiative means going first regardless of system. It just so happens that the mechanics of X-Wing favor going second.

Blue maneuvers clear stress regardless of completion because game health is important. Being stressed already is bad, and because blue maneuvers are the primary method of removing it but are limited on every dial it makes blocking them easier. You still lose your action if you bump, and so the game designers felt like keeping the stress was too huge of a downside to add on top of it.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I played against a guy recently who was "Teaching" X-Wing and figured, maybe he knew things I didn't.

No. He was a moron. To examples.

If we're going to ask simple rules queries as a veteran (or a newbie) and then get upset by how people reply, let's not start by calling someone trying to teach the rules of X-Wing a moron then?

Glass houses and all that.

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3 minutes ago, svelok said:

No, the player with fewer points spent chooses.

WEll yeah. I just don't feel like I need to bother if I'm running ships that have a desperate need for Ritalin.

Because that's what I run.

3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

@Captain Lackwit my dude this is why you gotta ask the questions first, amirite?

 

In gaming, having the initiative means going first regardless of system. It just so happens that the mechanics of X-Wing favor going second.

Blue maneuvers clear stress regardless of completion because game health is important. Being stressed already is bad, and because blue maneuvers are the primary method of removing it but are limited on every dial it makes blocking them easier. You still lose your action if you bump, and so the game designers felt like keeping the stress was too huge of a downside to add on top of it.

Exactly! And I thought I knew bUT I GUESS NOT.

So they just put easy mode on stress? **** that's lame. But it does make it easier. Kind of unrewardingly easier but hey.

4 minutes ago, The Penguin UK said:

If we're going to ask simple rules queries as a veteran (or a newbie) and then get upset by how people reply, let's not start by calling someone trying to teach the rules of X-Wing a moron then?

Glass houses and all that.

That's just it, I'm not really a veteran. I've flown probably less than 30 games since wave 3. You really don't know just how FEW chances I have to do anything.

So try not to be a jerk.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

So they just put easy mode on stress? **** that's lame. But it does make it easier. Kind of unrewardingly easier but hey.

I don't agree that it made it "easy mode" on stress. There are a lot of game elements that playing your way would absolutely be taken advantage of. Sloane, the white K on Defenders, and Leia crew would be even better than they are now as a quick example. Making stress that punishing would mean nobody would ever want to do a red maneuver, so they might as well not exist.

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1 minute ago, Micanthropyre said:

I don't agree that it made it "easy mode" on stress. There are a lot of game elements that playing your way would absolutely be taken advantage of. Sloane, the white K on Defenders, and Leia crew would be even better than they are now as a quick example. Making stress that punishing would mean nobody would ever want to do a red maneuver, so they might as well not exist.

Suppose so, yeah. That's kind of where I stood on them.

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Just now, Captain Lackwit said:

Answer's obvious, I was wrong. Did you need that vindication? Did it make your day better? You already knew. I already knew.

Well, yes to all those points. I'm shallow and petty like that.

But I still think it's salient point that if you are unsure about the rule to a point where you come to double check, don't open by calling a guy a moron. Especially as he's someone teaching how to play X-Wing, which you've said you need help with. 

I apologise if you genuinely needed help but that's not a good way to go about it. And given the number of rules questions topics you weigh in on, you can appreciate my assumption you know some of the basic tenets of the game.

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1 minute ago, The Penguin UK said:

Well, yes to all those points. I'm shallow and petty like that.

But I still think it's salient point that if you are unsure about the rule to a point where you come to double check, don't open by calling a guy a moron. Especially as he's someone teaching how to play X-Wing, which you've said you need help with. 

I apologise if you genuinely needed help but that's not a good way to go about it. And given the number of rules questions topics you weigh in on, you can appreciate my assumption you know some of the basic tenets of the game.

This is why nobody likes star wars fans, this is all too common. You only apologized after you got what you wanted, you're not actually sorry.

Don't interact with me. I've got enough toxicity in my life and I don't need a guy who needs somebody to tell him what he already knows just to feel better. Be better than yourself.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

This is why nobody likes star wars fans, this is all too common. You only apologized after you got what you wanted, you're not actually sorry.

Don't interact with me. I've got enough toxicity in my life and I don't need a guy who needs somebody to tell him what he already knows just to feel better. Be better than yourself.

The irony astounds me.

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Blue maneuvers are blue because it's the simplest thing for the pilot and/or chassis to handle in any given situation. Simple maneuvers don't get that much harder just for flying over/under another ship (which is what bumping is intended to simulate in this game). Just like the physical and mental stress a pilot is putting on themselves and their ship to perform a K-turn doesn't really disappear if you fail to finish said K-turn.

Plus, as somebody has already pointed out, it's balanced mechanically for you to still get/lose the stress when you bump.

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I'm curious and correct me if I am mistaking something, I have passed initiative to move and shoot second.  The problem is taking crits that effect my return fire, such as blinded pilot.  Now it seems that I would rather move and shoot first to apply those kinda crits to my opponent if I get lucky.  The ships I like to play are not arc dodgers so I go for the blocks and first shot in hopes of getting effective crits off first.  I hope this made some sense.

PS.  This thread made me think of this LOL

 

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OK just to be 100% clear:

First player is what would have been called initiative in 1e.  Initiative in 2e is the name for what was pilot skill in 1e, so there's a lot of terminology confusion.  I will use 2e terms from here on.

When you build your list, you can choose to spend as many or as few* points as you want, up to a maximum of 200.

*the minimum is actually 36, because you have to take at least two ships, and the cheapest two currently are a Z95 and an autopilot drone.

Before setup, both players confirm how many points they spent.

The player who has spent fewest points gets to choose whether they wish to be first player or second player.  In the event that both players spent the same, you randomise who gets the choice (most players I know do this by rolling a red die, and calling hits/crits versus eyes/blanks, which is 50:50).

Thereafter, one player will be first player, and the other will be second.

In the event of timing clashes, first player resolves their stuff first.  Then the second player resolves theirs

This can be *any* timing clashes, but most commonly this will be when two pilots have the same initiative value.  In these cases, the first player places their pilots first during setup (after all the pilots with lower initiative values, before the second player's ships with the same value).  They also move their ships with the same value first, and shoot with their ships with the same value first.  The second player will place their ships second in setup, move second, and shoot second.

Other timing clashes include, for instance, choosing whether to decloak and where to, whether to drop bombs and where, whether to use things like Sense and on which targets, triggers that resolve after attacking or defending etc etc.  In short, anything where things can happen at the same time.

 

Being second player is usually better than being first player when there are timing clashes, because x-wing has a whole host of things which are reactive to opponent movement, including arc dodging, target locking and other range-limited actions, and so on and so on, and because relatively few things rely on shooting first.  So most commonly, people underspend on their list in order to get the choice of whether to be first player, so they can choose to go second.


The fact that x-wing has a second player advantage, isn't dumb, any more than the fact that chess (and indeed most games) have a first player advantage is.  It is relatively unusual, however.

The whole blue moves issue has been dealt with.

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