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KCDodger

Who's the fool?: Rule dispute.

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I played against a guy recently who was "Teaching" X-Wing and figured, maybe he knew things I didn't.

No. He was a moron. To examples.

1: He believes Initiative is... Well, if I have initiative, I move AND shoot first, according to him. Pardon me, but then why would I ever want initiative?
2: He thinks stress is cleared when you REVEAL, not COMPLETE, a blue maneuver. That's just rewarding your dial choice regardless of bumping and that's dumb.

I think he's very, very wrong.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I played against a guy recently who was "Teaching" X-Wing and figured, maybe he knew things I didn't.

No. He was a moron. To examples.

1: He believes Initiative is... Well, if I have initiative, I move AND shoot first, according to him. Pardon me, but then why would I ever want initiative?
2: He thinks stress is cleared when you REVEAL, not COMPLETE, a blue maneuver. That's just rewarding your dial choice regardless of bumping and that's dumb.

I think he's very, very wrong.

1. He’s right... Initiative moves & shoots first in case of ties.

2. Technicalliy its after you execute the blue, but you can still bump and it clears the stress.

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1 minute ago, Innese said:

1. He’s right... Initiative moves & shoots first in case of ties.

2. Technicalliy its after you execute the blue, but you can still bump and it clears the stress.

That's the thing. We didn't have ties. That I won the point bid, to him, meant that I always moved and shot first.

that's interesting to note, but surely isn't just on reveal?

1 minute ago, Bucknife said:

I'm so confused. 

Same.

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1. You want initiative to block and to token strip. But mostly you don't tak3 in it, you bid in order to have the option of giving it away.

This has all been the case since day 1 of 1e. I'm not sure how you got this far getting both of those fundamentals wrong tbh.

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4 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

That's the thing. We didn't have ties. That I won the point bid, to him, meant that I always moved and shot first.

that's interesting to note, but surely isn't just on reveal?

No the winner of the bid (Or roll-off at matching bid) gets choice of initiative.

Its at the Check Difficulty step of the maneuver after it has been (fully or partially) executed; I’ve seen a lot of players just remove the stress on reveal as its going to happen anyway.

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1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

But winning the bid is not the same thing as having initiative.

Yeah, that much I know. Winning bid determines who shoots and moves in what order- lowest I on their side places, scales upwards from there, you, always placing after his. When it comes to combat, his stuff will move first, then yours. Then you shoot first, then his.

Unless Casual Flight Simulator's lying to me, which wouldn't be a first.

1 minute ago, Innese said:

No the winner of the bid (Or roll-off at matching bid) gets choice of initiative.

Its at the Check Difficulty step of the maneuver after it has been (fully or partially) executed; I’ve seen a lot of players just remove the stress on reveal as its going to happen anyway.

And I decided to take Initiative, because I wanted his guys to move before mine and I wanted to shoot before he did- that rule still stands right?

 

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Just now, Captain Lackwit said:

Yeah, that much I know. Winning bid determines who shoots and moves in what order- lowest I on their side places, scales upwards from there, you, always placing after his. When it comes to combat, his stuff will move first, then yours. Then you shoot first, then his.

Unless Casual Flight Simulator's lying to me, which wouldn't be a first.

And I decided to take Initiative, because I wanted his guys to move before mine and I wanted to shoot before he did- that rule still stands right?

 

It was never that.

If you have init (In 2e terms are first player) you move and shoot first. If you don't you move and shoot last. Because shooting first and moving last are both usually advantageous and the inverse are both usually disadvantageous so in theory the options are balanced. In practice moving last is by far the most important and powerful, and shooting first versus shooting last is usually not much of a difference.

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17 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

1: He believes Initiative is... Well, if I have initiative, I move AND shoot first, according to him. Pardon me, but then why would I ever want initiative?
2: He thinks stress is cleared when you REVEAL, not COMPLETE, a blue maneuver. That's just rewarding your dial choice regardless of bumping and that's dumb.

1. First player moves and shoots first. Second player moves and shoots second. The player with the bigger bid chooses which they want to be.

2. Blue maneuvers clear stress even if you bump or hit an obstacle.

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3 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

And I decided to take Initiative, because I wanted his guys to move before mine and I wanted to shoot before he did- that rule still stands right?

Um...

Just now, Innese said:

If you have Initiative, you both move & shoot first in the event of ties.

^ If you win the bid you want to either pass them first player so that they move before you do, they get to shoot before you in the case of init ties though if you do, or keep it so that you shoot first in the case of init ties but then they move after you as well. It is a balancing mechanic.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Yeah, that much I know. Winning bid determines who shoots and moves in what order- lowest I on their side places, scales upwards from there, you, always placing after his. When it comes to combat, his stuff will move first, then yours. Then you shoot first, then his.

Unless Casual Flight Simulator's lying to me, which wouldn't be a first.

And I decided to take Initiative, because I wanted his guys to move before mine and I wanted to shoot before he did- that rule still stands right?

 

You still seem to have initiative mixed up.  If you have the higher bid, you choose who is First Player (called initiative in 1st edition).  Then, whenever ships would activate (to move) they do so in ascending order of initiative numbers. In case of a tie, first player moves first.  Whenever ships would engage (to shoot), they do so in descending initiative order.  In case of ties, again, first player goes first.

 

If you and your opponent don’t share any initiative numbers between your ships, being first player literally only informed who places the first obstacle at the beginning of the game.

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2 minutes ago, Innese said:

If you have Initiative, you both move & shoot first in the event of ties.

That's stupid. Why would I ever want initiative?

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It was never that.

If you have init (In 2e terms are first player) you move and shoot first. If you don't you move and shoot last. Because shooting first and moving last are both usually advantageous and the inverse are both usually disadvantageous so in theory the options are balanced. In practice moving last is by far the most important and powerful, and shooting first versus shooting last is usually not much of a difference.

>:[]

BUH

2 minutes ago, svelok said:

1. First player moves and shoots first. Second player moves and shoots second. The player with the bigger bid chooses which they want to be.

2. Blue maneuvers clear stress even if you bump or hit an obstacle.

dear god why would I ever want initiative

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

2. Blue maneuvers clear stress even if you bump or hit an obstacle

That's stupid! Why reward THINKING about the right choice and not MAKING it?

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

Um...

^ If you win the bid you want to either pass them first player so that they move before you do, they get to shoot before you in the case of init ties though if you do, or keep it so that you shoot first in the case of init ties but then they move after you as well. It is a balancing mechanic.

WHY WOULD I WANT INITIATIVE

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1 minute ago, Matanui3 said:

You still seem to have initiative mixed up.  If you have the higher bid, you choose who is First Player (called initiative in 1st edition).  Then, whenever ships would activate (to move) they do so in ascending order of initiative numbers. In case of a tie, first player moves first.  Whenever ships would engage (to shoot), they do so in descending initiative order.  In case of ties, again, first player goes first.

 

If you and your opponent don’t share any initiative numbers between your ships, being first player literally only informed who places the first obstacle at the beginning of the game.

I don't get it, why do I ever want initiative!? It's a crippling thing to have in this case!

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Just now, Captain Lackwit said:

I don't get it, why do I ever want initiative!? It's a crippling thing to have in this case!

To block, to strip tokens and deal crits before your opponent can shoot.

 

But mostly, you wouldn't.  You bid to get the chance to give it away.

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1 minute ago, Captain Lackwit said:

That's stupid. Why would I ever want initiative?

>:[]

BUH

dear god why would I ever want initiative

That's stupid! Why reward THINKING about the right choice and not MAKING it?

WHY WOULD I WANT INITIATIVE

You generally don’t want to be first player in this game.  It’s weird like that.

However, in cases where your ships don’t have much repositional advantage, you may want to go first so you can be assured you won’t bump your opponent.

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There are very, very few cases in 2e in which you want to take init.  1e had a few more, because Phantoms always wanted to be shooting first, because they could then shoot and get their free cloak, meaning they were defending with 4 dice instead of 2.  There are almost no cases in 2e where you really want to shoot first; Del Meeko's defence bonus and Wampa not losing his carge are about the onyl two offhand.  Maybe also Greedo gunner.

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1 minute ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I don't get it, why do I ever want initiative!? It's a crippling thing to have in this case!

Anything with Juke wants to shoot first, so it can then spend its evade on defense.

Ships that can't re-position don't care as much.

Lower initiative can block higher initiative.

There's probably other reasons I'm forgetting. But most people are probably bidding to move second, yes.

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1 minute ago, Captain Lackwit said:

.-.,

This is dumb. :(

It's neutral.  I'd prefer it if bidding were less of a thing, personally, but it's a part of the game, one way or the other.  I don't assign a value judgement to it, because you have to pay to get it.  If you really want toguarantee getting it, you probably have to pay 10+ points for the privilege.  I usually don't bother and I very rarely regret it.

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