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Kieransi

Poll: which 1.0 meta pilot do you want back?

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Thweek, as cool as he was, is kinda just beyond busted in 2e.  Thweek was held in check in 1e by the simple fact that he couldn't take PTL, and didn't have any other means to take multiple actions.  If he wanted to boost or barrel roll, he couldn't get a focus token, and a tokenless ship was in rough shape in 1e.  Now, that limitation is gone, and every Starviper has a Sensor slot, for a lot of Advanced Sensors potential.

Copying a pilot ability at PS 4 wasn't too strong, since he could get outflown.  Copying PS meant Thweek was a generic with super-VI.  It used to be fine, but 2e has buffed the generic versions of Starvipers to the point where I don't think that's viable anymore.

And if he did come back, I kinda think he'd need to be like Init 2. Grabbing anyone's pilot ability at 4, with a very high mobility ship able to take double actions, would be... yikes.  His old PS 4 was pretty low, and if he didn't copy PS, almost every other pilot that folks actually used would be ahead of him.

*edit*

Thweek is also super awkward with the fact that he wouldn't copy charges, probably.  It'd be confusing as heck.

Edited by theBitterFig

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Thweek, as cool as he was, is kinda just beyond busted in 2e.  Thweek was held in check in 1e by the simple fact that he couldn't take PTL, and didn't have any other means to take multiple actions.  If he wanted to boost or barrel roll, he couldn't get a focus token, and a tokenless ship was in rough shape in 1e.  Now, that limitation is gone, and every Starviper has a Sensor slot, for a lot of Advanced Sensors potential.

Copying a pilot ability at PS 4 wasn't too strong, since he could get outflown.  Copying PS meant Thweek was a generic with super-VI.  It used to be fine, but 2e has buffed the generic versions of Starvipers to the point where I don't think that's viable anymore.

And if he did come back, I kinda think he'd need to be like Init 2. Grabbing anyone's pilot ability at 4, with a very high mobility ship able to take double actions, would be... yikes.  His old PS 4 was pretty low, and if he didn't copy PS, almost every other pilot that folks actually used would be ahead of him.

*edit*

Thweek is also super awkward with the fact that he wouldn't copy charges, probably.  It'd be confusing as heck.

While you are right, He is the only starviper pilot other than Guri that was competitive, and I desperately want to fly 2 starvipers without feeling like i’m gimping myself.

While copying pilot abilities is strong, if he costs enough it should be ok, and depending on your opponents list, you might not have great options like if they use a force user with generics, or a support ship list that must maintain range 1(starvipers would probably  break range from their barrel roll alone)

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Eh... Ryad, I guess? She's about the only one I could see not immediately breaking 2.0 clean in half. Besides, most of those ships are just fine, but waiting for upgrades and/or points costs to come along to help them out. But the 1.0 versions of everyone on that poll went away for good reasons and they should (and hopefully will) stay gone.

Particulary Dengar.

**** that guy.

And the horse he rode in on.

And the guy who sold him that horse.

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57 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Eh... Ryad, I guess? She's about the only one I could see not immediately breaking 2.0 clean in half. Besides, most of those ships are just fine, but waiting for upgrades and/or points costs to come along to help them out. But the 1.0 versions of everyone on that poll went away for good reasons and they should (and hopefully will) stay gone.

Particulary Dengar.

**** that guy.

And the horse he rode in on.

And the guy who sold him that horse.

Thinking of the jumpmaster-

 

A long time ago in a in a galaxy far, far away a pilot known as Manaroo led her fellow bounty hunters and privateers to victory time and again... 

Until one such victory led to the ruthless and brutal organization known as FFG catching wind of this.

They beat her with the Nerfhammer again and again until such time that her bruised arms would only reach the closest of compatriots.

 

Seriously....

she was only broken because of mind link which doesn’t exist anymore.

Also now that the jumpmaster is in the state it’s currently in, having a support pilot who doesn’t NEED the title to be useful would be nice for the chassis.

Range 2 is all she needs, bring back one of Scum’s few dedicated support pilots.

Range 1 with a large base IS asking too much FFG.

Her ability even changed, it used to be all focus, evade and target locks. Now its just green tokens.

Edited by DakkaDakka12

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2 hours ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

While you are right, He is the only starviper pilot other than Guri that was competitive, and I desperately want to fly 2 starvipers without feeling like i’m gimping myself.

While copying pilot abilities is strong, if he costs enough it should be ok, and depending on your opponents list, you might not have great options like if they use a force user with generics, or a support ship list that must maintain range 1(starvipers would probably  break range from their barrel roll alone)

I just keep thinking about so many of the most extreme examples.  I'm not sure there's really a way to balance a pilot ability copying ability.  There's just too many broken possibilities.  It also seems like the kind of thing that can get awkward for designers.  They'll have to consider whether Thweek breaks the game with any new pilots.

I think Thweek is super fun.  But I just don't think he'd be good for balance in the game.  I don't think an expensive ability which is either useless or utterly bonkers nuts depending on the opponent's list seems right.

As to being the only other playable SV in 1e...  IIRC, 3x PTL Starviper Aces kinda worked.  Not for everyone, but a strong enough squad.  The crazy boost/barrel roll combos they could pull off are gone, but the chassis seems like it has potential.  I recall some folks flying generic Starvipers.  I was already planning to fly four next time I got a chance, and now I'm super convinced that's what I want to fly.  I'm thinking Assassins + Trick Shot, if only because I'm trying to get better with Trick Shot.

Also, I keep thinking Advanced Sensors Dalan Oberos is probably solid.  He'd be a lot better higher than Init 4, to be sure.  But his final facing map is pretty amazing.

But this kind of opens a question: what would be a sweet ability for a new Starviper Ace?  Is such an ability close enough that it could still be called Thweek?  Suppose Thweek was an Init 3 who had 2 or 3 non-recurring charges, and when he spent one in the System phase, he copy the Initiative (and only initiative) any enemy pilot of your choice.  You could go low when you really need a block, or go high to do all the sweet ace-things.  But only two or three turns in the entire game.  I feel like that could be a bunch of fun.  But I kinda think being permanently tied for highest Init is both super powerful, and kinda boring.  Again, if it's permanent, it's just Veteran Instincts, and the biggest reason I'm glad it's gone from 2e is just that it's dull. A charge-based Init Copy would be a bit more exciting.

54 minutes ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

Thinking of the jumpmaster-

A long time ago in a in a galaxy far, far away a pilot known as Manaroo [...]

Seriously....

she was only broken because of mind link which doesn’t exist anymore.  Also now that the jumpmaster is in the state it’s currently in, having a support pilot who doesn’t NEED the title to be useful would be nice for the chassis.  Range 2 is all she needs, bring back one of Scum’s few dedicated support pilots.  Range 1 with a large base IS asking too much FFG.

Her ability even changed, it used to be all focus, evade and target locks. Now its just green tokens.

I mean, Manaroo was broken for a heck of a lot of things beyond just Attanni Mindlink, but she totally ought to have been Range 2 in this edition, where the nutty combos are gone.  Or maybe Range 1 plus anyone in her firing arc. 

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I just keep thinking about so many of the most extreme examples.  I'm not sure there's really a way to balance a pilot ability copying ability.  There's just too many broken possibilities.  It also seems like the kind of thing that can get awkward for designers.  They'll have to consider whether Thweek breaks the game with any new pilots.

I think Thweek is super fun.  But I just don't think he'd be good for balance in the game.  I don't think an expensive ability which is either useless or utterly bonkers nuts depending on the opponent's list seems right.

As to being the only other playable SV in 1e...  IIRC, 3x PTL Starviper Aces kinda worked.  Not for everyone, but a strong enough squad.  The crazy boost/barrel roll combos they could pull off are gone, but the chassis seems like it has potential.  I recall some folks flying generic Starvipers.  I was already planning to fly four next time I got a chance, and now I'm super convinced that's what I want to fly.  I'm thinking Assassins + Trick Shot, if only because I'm trying to get better with Trick Shot.

Also, I keep thinking Advanced Sensors Dalan Oberos is probably solid.  He'd be a lot better higher than Init 4, to be sure.  But his final facing map is pretty amazing.

But this kind of opens a question: what would be a sweet ability for a new Starviper Ace?  Is such an ability close enough that it could still be called Thweek?  Suppose Thweek was an Init 3 who had 2 or 3 non-recurring charges, and when he spent one in the System phase, he copy the Initiative (and only initiative) any enemy pilot of your choice.  You could go low when you really need a block, or go high to do all the sweet ace-things.  But only two or three turns in the entire game.  I feel like that could be a bunch of fun.  But I kinda think being permanently tied for highest Init is both super powerful, and kinda boring.  Again, if it's permanent, it's just Veteran Instincts, and the biggest reason I'm glad it's gone from 2e is just that it's dull. A charge-based Init Copy would be a bit more exciting.

I mean, Manaroo was broken for a heck of a lot of things beyond just Attanni Mindlink, but she totally ought to have been Range 2 in this edition, where the nutty combos are gone.  Or maybe Range 1 plus anyone in her firing arc. 

My thoughts with Thweek are similar to yours,

what if he was like captain cardinal(upsilon)

copy any ships initiative as long as you have any remaining charges.

After an enemy ship at range 0-3 is destroyed lose a charge.

Not sure what his base initiative should be though.

 

Yes Manaroo has potential to be scary, but getting a large base to fly formation at range 1 is way too hard to make her worth flying. Range 2 seems fair.

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17 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Yeah, most of those were destructive and way to common as net decking powers.

I am really confused why he didn't make it too! Bad move FFG, bad move.

I wonder if you might get a Royal Guard Interceptor being a separate ship. But yes, it's a shame we don't have the Royal Guard - they were one of my first squads, and Carnor is a very nice ship.

For that matter, Kir Kanos could be good if he was redone right.

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I don't really miss any of the dominant 1.0 meta pilots. I would however like to see a couple of thematic pilots make a return, like the Royal Guards, Kir Kanos and Carnor Jax. 1 force token for all three (they are force sensitive soldiers, not proper Sith), I4 for the Guards and Kir, I5 for Carnor. Kir's ability could be something like "when attacking at R2-3 and are evading, you may spend 1 force to change one [blank] result to a [hit] result", and Carnor's maybe "at the start of the engagement phase, you may spend 1 force to perform a jam action."

Also, get Valen Rudor back in a v1 (same ability please), along with Fifth Brother (who I guess also could use his gunner ability).

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9 hours ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

My thoughts with Thweek are similar to yours,

what if he was like captain cardinal(upsilon)

copy any ships initiative as long as you have any remaining charges.

After an enemy ship at range 0-3 is destroyed lose a charge.

Not sure what his base initiative should be though.

 

Yes Manaroo has potential to be scary, but getting a large base to fly formation at range 1 is way too hard to make her worth flying. Range 2 seems fair.

I dunno if I like "initiative boost until something happens." I don't necessarily think it's bad, but it just doesn't appeal to me.  Seems kind of arbitrary.

On the other hand, there's room for an interesting pilot (probably not Thweek, probably not right for a Starviper) who starts at Initiative 0 with 6 or 7 charges.  Add remaining charges to initiative.  Maybe each turn, maybe after each attack, they'd lose a charge.  Feels like it'd work best on a 2-red ship, like an A-Wing or a Scyk.  It'd be sort of a bluffing game.  How much can you ignore it early game, so that it becomes weak late-game?

Or the reverse.  Someone who builds charges, builds momentum from attacking and increases initiative.  They're easier to go after early, but let them get away, and they could become a late-game monster.

//

Range 1 and in her firing arc appeals to me, though.  A lot of other buff-pilots got the in-arc treatment (Kanan and nearly every HWK, for example), and it seems fair to do it to her, as well.  Her range is fairly short on it's own, but you'll have the tools to make a choice to help friendly ships get a bonus at longer range.

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10 hours ago, Okapi said:

I don't really miss any of the dominant 1.0 meta pilots. I would however like to see a couple of thematic pilots make a return, like the Royal Guards, Kir Kanos and Carnor Jax. 1 force token for all three (they are force sensitive soldiers, not proper Sith), I4 for the Guards and Kir, I5 for Carnor. Kir's ability could be something like "when attacking at R2-3 and are evading, you may spend 1 force to change one [blank] result to a [hit] result", and Carnor's maybe "at the start of the engagement phase, you may spend 1 force to perform a jam action."

Also, get Valen Rudor back in a v1 (same ability please), along with Fifth Brother (who I guess also could use his gunner ability).

I really like your suggestions.

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On 2/20/2019 at 11:44 AM, MasterShake2 said:

Miranda *runs*

Miranda on a medium base without TLT might be okay with her 1e ability, as long as it was still restricted to primary only. No more buffed torpedo shots.

Edited by FlyingAnchors

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Meta-wise I really miss Asajj and her shenanigans. She's a bit more difficult to build with now as she can't get those double actions and use all those beautiful blues.

Non-meta I miss Wes and Hobbie the most. My 2 favourite pilots in the whole game.

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11 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I really miss Backstabber.  I've killed more ships with him than probably any other ship.  Well, it would be close.  He was a mid PS pilot that really made a difference.  He pissed off so many people that they went for him straight some games.   

Dark Curse was pretty good, too.

I miss Backstabber more in name than ability (although there is a "behind" definition now, as opposed to just an "out of arc" one, even if it kind of copies Graz the Hunter). I mean, Backstabber and Mauler Mithel were Vader's wingmen (at least, they used to be), and it'd be nice to have that thematic list possible.

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14 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I miss Backstabber more in name than ability (although there is a "behind" definition now, as opposed to just an "out of arc" one, even if it kind of copies Graz the Hunter). I mean, Backstabber and Mauler Mithel were Vader's wingmen (at least, they used to be), and it'd be nice to have that thematic list possible.

Backstabber was amazing for the points.  He was 16 pts for a 3 dice Tie Fighter.  Fantastic guy who dished out a lot of damage to the enemy.

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