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miedomeda

Vader (*new* officer)

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I feel I need some insight from you rules guys regarding the *new* officer Vader and its interaction with other officers. 

Wording on the card says: "while a friendly ship at distance 1-5 is attacking a ship, it may discard one of its *officer* or *commander* upgrade cards (other than Vader) to reroll any number of dice in its attack pool."

Cool, I thought, we can now have 1-2 pts rerolls then! So I started building a list, but I found I'm not entirely sure about the consequences of discarding certain officers.

What about Minister Tua? Does the defensive retrofit slot disappear after you force choke him, and what happens to the upgrade you put there? 

What about Taskmaster Grint? Since the token is placed after deploying fleets, does the effect outlive him?

What about Pryce? Same as Grint, the round token is already there, does her effect outlive her?

 

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Grint's token may be placed on his card, but without the card in play there's no meaning to it.  He has a clearly defined trigger point of "when you reveal a command dial," and if he's not there at that point nothing happens.

Pryce is the subject of some debate, I believe.  There are two arguments: one is that Pryce triggers "after deploying fleets," i.e., once you have the round token there her effect will occur no matter what.  The other is that Pryce needs to stick around until the round you've decided to go last; I personally disagree with this interpretation, as her exact trigger point is unclear ("during the round.")  Is it the start of the round?  Is it when the ship she's on activates at the end of the round?  Because everything she does, she does before then...

Tua also needs an errata.  But the prevailing view seems to be that the presence of an appropriate upgrade slot only matters during fleet building (so the defensive retrofit is kept.)

In fact, these issues are already present in-game with the Darth Vader boarding party.

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1 hour ago, miedomeda said:

What about Minister Tua? Does the defensive retrofit slot disappear after you force choke him, and what happens to the upgrade you put there? 

latest?cb=20161209222416

The slot does not disappear.  Fleet legality is only checked at fleet build time, RRG 13 UPGRADE CARDS:

Quote

When building a fleet, upgrade cards can be equipped to ships by adding their fleet point costs to the total fleet point cost. For each upgrade icon in a ship’s upgrade bar, it may equip one upgrade card with the matching upgrade icon.

 

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1 hour ago, miedomeda said:

What about Taskmaster Grint? Since the token is placed after deploying fleets, does the effect outlive him?

latest?cb=20180108183140

Grint's effect goes away after he's trashed.  His effect triggers every time you flip the relevant dial ("when you reveal a command...")--if he's not there to trigger, there is no effect.

 

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1 hour ago, miedomeda said:

What about Pryce? Same as Grint, the round token is already there, does her effect outlive her?

latest?cb=20171212094103

Pryce triggers as soon as you've placed the token on her ("after deploying fleets... if you do... you must activate at the end"), so her effect triggers even if you Vader her before the round in question. (Worth noting that this one is less well-defined, but it was sort of the general consensus reached between @Drasnighta and @i2xCross on Discord when this was asked.)

Edited by Ardaedhel

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2 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

(Worth noting that this one is less well-defined, but it was sort of the general consensus reached between @Drasnighta and @i2xCross on Discord when this was asked.)

 

I believe that @i2xCross ‘s opinion was also formed after offhand discussions with Development, too...  Since he’s Worlds judge and all...

 

It’s been submitted for hopeful full FAQ inclusion, but if you want to emulate the rules of “top competition “, or at least be consistent with *us* that’s the ruling we have for you 🙂

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7 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Also, I would like to add, the decision above, I agree with very reluctantly, and wish, at least in the case of Pryce / Bail, that it were different...  But some times, that's how rules go - not the way you want, but the way they are.

That's exactly how I feel as well. I just think it propagates a nasty precedent for a very loose interpretation of trigger/effect timing mechanics. If a card is discarded--face down and no longer in play--but still impacting gameplay, you're trusting memory or ad hoc accounting to track effects, which... I mean, it's not broken or insurmountable, just dirty and inelegant.

Imo. :)

 

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On 2/19/2019 at 6:21 PM, Drasnighta said:

Also, I would like to add, the decision above, I agree with very reluctantly, and wish, at least in the case of Pryce / Bail, that it were different...  But some times, that's how rules go - not the way you want, but the way they are.

Honestly, I dont see how that interpretation holds any water at all.  The round token goes on the card.  When the card is discarded, it's just a loose round token at that point. 

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37 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Honestly, I dont see how that interpretation holds any water at all.

Because the card is only relevant at the beginning: "After deploying fleets, you may place 1 round token on this card."

It's weird because the trigger and effect are separated in time. The trigger happens when you place the round token on the card, but the effect happens during the specified round. Removing the card in between those doesn't stop the effect because the effect has already been triggered.

Look at something like Disposable Capacitors:

Quote

When you activate, you may discard this card. If you do, the blue dice in your battery armament can be used while attacking ships at close-long range until the end of the round.

The trigger for this is discarding the card when you activate - yet the effects persist until the end of the round. If the effects of a card cease when it is discarded (or can't happen after it is discarded), disposable capacitors wouldn't do anything.

Or with the Fleet Commands - they are triggered at the start of the Ship Phase, when a token is spent or the card is discarded. Even though the card is discarded, their effects keep happening until the end of the round - even if the ship is destroyed (per the FAQ). There's nothing magical about the end of the round - so by extending the Fleet Command FAQ (or how Disposable Capacitors works) - the effect of Governor Pryce should keep happening even if the card is discarded.

Contrast with something like Moff Jerjerrod. That is triggered "During a friendly ship's Determine Course step" - so if Jerjerrod is discarded (or destroyed), his card is no longer triggered, so no longer has any effect.

It's not conclusive, but I think fits with similar cards.

Edited by Grumbleduke
found better examples.

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