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chr335

Equipment upgrade packs?

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Okay so with the announcement of the Downed ATST pack I got to thinking about what other special packs we could get and the first was equipment upgrades. These would be packs with various weapon replacements to corps and vehicle standard weapons, and extra equipment upgrades like more flavors of grenades and other support equipment.  What do you guys think and what would you want in a pack like this.

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I'd rather grenade and equipment upgrades continued to come in boxes with new miniatures. I also don't really want new versions of currently existing miniatures or weapons options (new ones, yes, new versions of the standard? no) since I'd rather see new things than continued development of already existing miniatures. 

Edited by Caimheul1313

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1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I'd rather grenade and equipment upgrades continued to come in boxes with new miniatures. I also don't really want mew versions of currently existing miniatures or weapons options (new ones, yes, new versions of the standard? no) since I'd rather see new things than continued development of already existing miniatures. 

Agreed - I like the idea of new minis with new weapons or abilities being added to existing units. I wouldn’t want to see rereleases of existing units (at least not as a general release - an alternate sculpt of a commander or operative could make a cool OP swag item or something like that). 

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I think universal heavy weapons (at least within a faction) could be interesting.

New models for old squads would be good. Some people insist that it's only good if it has new stats: to this I say, it would be better to have completely optional novel sculpts than novel stats which imbalance the game. When they feel the new need to write new stats for the sake of being new, it's bad. New sculpts don't hurt anyone. If someone feels put off by a "pointless reskin" they can just not buy it. Though in a game using 3D physical toys, as opposed to a video game where they just change the graphics, there's no such thing as a "reskin" IMO.

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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Forgive me for my next comment because I think is going to be very unpopular.

The only "card pack" I want is a "Legion 2.0 pack". Something like 10€ for the exactly same cards for each faction but without upgrade icons or costs. I know there was a lot of backslash when X-Wing 2.0 arrived but I think an mobile app/browser app is the way to go if we want a sustanaible meta in Legion. This is the kind of tool which developers need to mantain the balance adjusting points or icons when necessary.

 

 

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1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

I think universal heavy weapons (at least within a faction) could be interesting.

New models for old squads would be good. Some people insist that it's only good if it has new stats: to this I say, it would be better to have completely optional novel sculpts than novel stats which imbalance the game. When they feel the new need to write new stats for the sake of being new, it's bad. New sculpts don't hurt anyone. If someone feels put off by a "pointless reskin" they can just not buy it. Though in a game using 3D physical toys, as opposed to a video game where they just change the graphics, there's no such thing as a "reskin" IMO.

 

I think there's room for both, but only if used sparingly.  If they were to release a new squad of Stormtroopers called "Shocktroopers" or what not with slightly improved stats, different poses, and a new upgrade or two, but also the cards for the original Stormtrooper unit, I think it could be worthwhile for everyone.  Gives you an option of how they are used, and wouldn't be a weird transition from one corps option to another.   That said, with as many potential corps units as they have, I don't think we'll see anything like that for a while. 

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2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

I think universal heavy weapons (at least within a faction) could be interesting.

New models for old squads would be good. Some people insist that it's only good if it has new stats: to this I say, it would be better to have completely optional novel sculpts than novel stats which imbalance the game. When they feel the new need to write new stats for the sake of being new, it's bad. New sculpts don't hurt anyone. If someone feels put off by a "pointless reskin" they can just not buy it. Though in a game using 3D physical toys, as opposed to a video game where they just change the graphics, there's no such thing as a "reskin" IMO.

 

YEah, I'd like to see some "shared" Heavy upgrades. FFG could even restrict them by unit type "Corps units only" or "Special Force only." Lots of interesting options of new ways to use the Heavy slot. 

 

1 hour ago, Senjius said:

Forgive me for my next comment because I think is going to be very unpopular.

The only "card pack" I want is a "Legion 2.0 pack". Something like 10€ for the exactly same cards for each faction but without upgrade icons or costs. I know there was a lot of backslash when X-Wing 2.0 arrived but I think an mobile app/browser app is the way to go if we want a sustanaible meta in Legion. This is the kind of tool which developers need to mantain the balance adjusting points or icons when necessary.

 

 

Honestly, a massive update /re release is also the only time I want to be spending money on a box containing only cards in a miniatures game. And even then I'll do so grudgingly.

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So based on the comments we would want more like the imperial and rebel support personnel packs such as heavy arsenal support pack.  Extra personnel minis that add new heavy weapons to existing units and extra personnel in addition to just and extra trooper (similar to the comm specialist but provide other support effects)

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30 minutes ago, chr335 said:

So based on the comments we would want more like the imperial and rebel support personnel packs such as heavy arsenal support pack.  Extra personnel minis that add new heavy weapons to existing units and extra personnel in addition to just and extra trooper (similar to the comm specialist but provide other support effects)

I've been saying that since the release of the specialists.

As I play Empire, I will use them as an example primarily.   

While we see a number of other trooper types (death, shore, snow, range, etc.) we still see a lot of stormtroopers, and there are several weapons we see them carry that are ripe for models.   Like the T-21.   Heavy weapons are a great way to get new models.   We have so many subtle variations of the classic stormtrooper and the weapons they carry.   

As for new models, I'd be happy if they made better and more variation in the poses, and would even consider buying a rerelease pack of stormtroopers.   

That being said, if a stormtroopers 2 pack was released with different heavies, multi-part models, I'd consider that too.

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Since we first read the description of Personnel and how it should include medics and techs, I wanted something like the Specialists. I've also wondered if you could do a heavy weapons pack in a similar format. I'd think the balance would  be a bit more wiggly, but hey it works for specialists, so you could possibly get some "generic" Heavy slots to show off interesting weapon designs and capabilities because boy howdy is there a variety in Star Wars. Unless one of them also doubles as like a generic operative or something though it either needs to be a bit cheaper than specialists or find a way to maybe cram a couple extra cards and figs in there since the specialists were rounded out by one of them doubling as a commander.

I'm still not 100% sold on rerelease packs, at least at this time. If it was purely a cosmetic release, absolutely no new mechanical content, but improved or varied sculpts and maybe alternate art, sure that is purely non-essential. But considering many people already bought 3-6 of these units (or multiple cores) to flesh out the rank chart FFG going "an now if you want some variety in all those units you already bought, buy them again but with new toys" seems a bit exploitative. They've already gone out of their way to populate upgrades through multiple releases so you don't necessarily have to multi-up on an expansion you don't like or don't want just to get new cards. I know they got away with it and Aces packs, but those usually helped a ship not doing well and even then were still a bit questionable. Further into the life cycle maybe, if we've added a couple more Corps units for actual tactical variety, or we've got a situation where there's no better way to add new options to old units as easily when there's still tools to be added to the kit, I'd be okay with like "Stormtroopers II" (alongside obviously more Specialist and Heavy Weapons packs on their own) when the system doesn't have any better way to push content. If they announced it tomorrow, it'd feel a bit lazy and I'd wonder if the developers were suddenly running out of money and ideas. If they could go back and time, and offer such options right from the start, that would also have been fine. 

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I'd hate a move away from points on cards. I'd at the very least need a PDF I can print out with the name of each unit/upgrade and the cost as there's very little chance of ever having an app work on my mobile and I'm not carting my PC around to anyone else's house just so we can build our lists for another game.

I'm all for a mobile app/website to build lists as long as they're optional.

I'd like to think if they did want to change the point cost of any unit that it would just be done via updated rule as with key positions and when there's sufficient card changes, they'd print replacement cards and include them in one of the future upgrades and/or offer to sell them as their own pack for those that want the exact cards rather than a print out.

Edited by DwainDibbly

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9 hours ago, DwainDibbly said:

I'd hate a move away from points on cards. I'd at the very least need a PDF I can print out with the name of each unit/upgrade and the cost as there's very little chance of ever having an app work on my mobile and I'm not carting my PC around to anyone else's house just so we can build our lists for another game.

I'm all for a mobile app/website to build lists as long as they're optional.

I'd like to think if they did want to change the point cost of any unit that it would just be done via updated rule as with key positions and when there's sufficient card changes, they'd print replacement cards and include them in one of the future upgrades and/or offer to sell them as their own pack for those that want the exact cards rather than a print out.

In X-Wing they always release a PDF version of the points before the changes are implemented in the app. Upgrade slots are also included and subject to change.

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So what support models would you guy want. 

I was thinking of a sensor tech( provides free aim tokens to the unit or/and friendly units),

range finder (increase max range, if possible, at the cost of reducing actions or gaining suppression)

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14 hours ago, DwainDibbly said:

I'd hate a move away from points on cards. I'd at the very least need a PDF I can print out with the name of each unit/upgrade and the cost as there's very little chance of ever having an app work on my mobile and I'm not carting my PC around to anyone else's house just so we can build our lists for another game.

I'm all for a mobile app/website to build lists as long as they're optional.

I'd like to think if they did want to change the point cost of any unit that it would just be done via updated rule as with key positions and when there's sufficient card changes, they'd print replacement cards and include them in one of the future upgrades and/or offer to sell them as their own pack for those that want the exact cards rather than a print out.

Maybe I have not explained myself correctly. You do not need a mobile or PC to play the game. You do not need anything more than now because you will have your PC in your house to build your army and THEN you carry your miniatures to your friend´´´´´´´'s house. If you do not trust your memory you can write your list in a paper if you want to avoid any electronic device. Deleting the points and icons from the cards is just a method to allow FFG to change them without the need for a reprint or to avoid everybody the need to carry with them a pack of faqs with point or icon changes.

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Senjius: The problem is when we play a couple of games and want to change our armies, we do not always have access to a PC at that time.

As long as they release a PDF alongside any update to the app's points though, it wouldn't be a problem as we'd just ensure we have the latest PDF printed.

Edited by DwainDibbly

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7 hours ago, DwainDibbly said:

Senjius: The problem is when we play a couple of games and want to change our armies, we do not always have access to a PC at that time.

As long as they release a PDF alongside any update to the app's points though, it wouldn't be a problem as we'd just ensure we have the latest PDF printed.

Don´´ t worry. As arnoldrew stated, they would make a pdf avalaible through their website.

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On 2/21/2019 at 2:15 PM, UnitOmega said:

Since we first read the description of Personnel and how it should include medics and techs, I wanted something like the Specialists. I've also wondered if you could do a heavy weapons pack in a similar format. I'd think the balance would  be a bit more wiggly, but hey it works for specialists, so you could possibly get some "generic" Heavy slots to show off interesting weapon designs and capabilities because boy howdy is there a variety in Star Wars. Unless one of them also doubles as like a generic operative or something though it either needs to be a bit cheaper than specialists or find a way to maybe cram a couple extra cards and figs in there since the specialists were rounded out by one of them doubling as a commander.

I'm still not 100% sold on rerelease packs, at least at this time. If it was purely a cosmetic release, absolutely no new mechanical content, but improved or varied sculpts and maybe alternate art, sure that is purely non-essential. But considering many people already bought 3-6 of these units (or multiple cores) to flesh out the rank chart FFG going "an now if you want some variety in all those units you already bought, buy them again but with new toys" seems a bit exploitative. They've already gone out of their way to populate upgrades through multiple releases so you don't necessarily have to multi-up on an expansion you don't like or don't want just to get new cards. I know they got away with it and Aces packs, but those usually helped a ship not doing well and even then were still a bit questionable. Further into the life cycle maybe, if we've added a couple more Corps units for actual tactical variety, or we've got a situation where there's no better way to add new options to old units as easily when there's still tools to be added to the kit, I'd be okay with like "Stormtroopers II" (alongside obviously more Specialist and Heavy Weapons packs on their own) when the system doesn't have any better way to push content. If they announced it tomorrow, it'd feel a bit lazy and I'd wonder if the developers were suddenly running out of money and ideas. If they could go back and time, and offer such options right from the start, that would also have been fine. 

The tricky thing about a heavy weapons pack is not creating a one size fits all that automatically replaces the options already available. The personnel options swing the right balance in that the original options are still valid, and it’s not an automatic: you want to use the expansion, always. 

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13 hours ago, Derrault said:

The tricky thing about a heavy weapons pack is not creating a one size fits all that automatically replaces the options already available. The personnel options swing the right balance in that the original options are still valid, and it’s not an automatic: you want to use the expansion, always. 

I would probably just make an extra heavy for a few of the units.  Maybe a light DLT for the scouts or a grenade launcher for storm troopers.  That way you won't have units with snow gear in a scout unit.

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On 2/21/2019 at 7:54 AM, Senjius said:

Forgive me for my next comment because I think is going to be very unpopular.

The only "card pack" I want is a "Legion 2.0 pack".

 

Well that's the only cardpack that's actually likely to ever come out for Legion, if FFG's history is any guide. So popularity can take a long walk on a short dock.

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1 hour ago, Winged Gundark said:

I would probably just make an extra heavy for a few of the units.  Maybe a light DLT for the scouts or a grenade launcher for storm troopers.  That way you won't have units with snow gear in a scout unit.

If they actually did that (unlikely) it would be best as a series of arms and cards. A couple DL-19's or HH-12's in scout and snow trooper arms with the attendant squad heavy cards, a couple flamethrowers or ion guns in storm and scout trooper arms with the relevant cards, etc.  It would be really cool but (probably) horribly imbalancing.

I'd also like to see a completely alternate sculpt of old squads in new uniforms for no reason other than thematic armies. Regular statted stormtroopers in Hoth gear. Veteran (snow) statted troopers in regular stormtrooper armor. This would have much the same effect as the above without impacting game balance one iota.

The last idea is pretty much unheard of for the likes of FFG but is the industry norm for paint-your-own miniature wargames. There's usually no statline difference between different types of historical archers or different 40k imperial guard regiments or whatever. It would be nice to be able to use whatever stats I wanted and keep a visual theme going in my army.

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41 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

I'd also like to see a completely alternate sculpt of old squads in new uniforms for no reason other than thematic armies. Regular statted stormtroopers in Hoth gear. Veteran (snow) statted troopers in regular stormtrooper armor. This would have much the same effect as the above without impacting game balance one iota.

The last idea is pretty much unheard of for the likes of FFG but is the industry norm for paint-your-own miniature wargames. There's usually no statline difference between different types of historical archers or different 40k imperial guard regiments or whatever. It would be nice to be able to use whatever stats I wanted and keep a visual theme going in my army.

It's hardly the industry norm, at least not anymore. Most miniature companies I know of are  either moving to the "one kit to represent X unit" model or have always done it that way, such as Privateer Press, Mantic,  Corvus Belli (Infinity), CMON (Song of Fire and Ice),  Steamforged Games (Guildball), and even Games Workshop. While Mantic and GW's games may not require those specific kits, the company still only produces one kit for a given unit, with the exception of some of GW's older lines or where the kits cross over between Horus Heresy and 40k. Any of GW's newer lines, they produce one version of the unit, with decals and typically some parts for some amount of customization.  

The only ones I know of that produce multiple sculpts for the same "unit" are historical miniatures manufacturers, producing models in different uniforms for different theaters of war. Many of those companies though don't produce an associated wargame, and with the lack of copyright on historical equipment, historical games don't "require" you to use their line of miniatures. 

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45 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

It's hardly the industry norm, at least not anymore. Most miniature companies I know of are  either moving to the "one kit to represent X unit" model or have always done it that way, such as Privateer Press, Mantic,  Corvus Belli (Infinity), CMON (Song of Fire and Ice),  Steamforged Games (Guildball), and even Games Workshop. While Mantic and GW's games may not require those specific kits, the company still only produces one kit for a given unit, with the exception of some of GW's older lines or where the kits cross over between Horus Heresy and 40k. Any of GW's newer lines, they produce one version of the unit, with decals and typically some parts for some amount of customization.  

But there's still no difference between jungle fatigues and generic guardsmen models unless you decide to use optional special rules for Catachans or whatever. They can both just be fielded as an "Imperial Guard Squad". There used to be 5 or more regiments and now there's 2 but still. Or if I make a devastator squad from a different chapters using chapter-specific models, they're still just a space marine devastator squad. And there might only be one space ork mob or whatever, but you can assemble it in any number of ways so there's no one official squad like in Legion. You might only have one or two product numbers associated with a unit (say, a box and a blister) but there's a lot more than one way to represent that thing on the table without varying from what's "official" at all.

Many games (especailly but not only historicals) don't always even have different base statlines for similar units in different factions.

GW still usually has multiple kits for many units, ie, differnet poses of generic officers, a multi-pose space marine tactical squad plus a push-together starter set tactical squad, etc.

Copyright aside, the historical gaming community would largely not stand for a company trying to impose their miniatures line on you. It's the reason a lot of those folks tell me they refuse to play 40k et al. "Why can't I use whatever space alien miniatures I want?".

Edited by TauntaunScout

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2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

But there's still no difference between jungle fatigues and generic guardsmen models unless you decide to use optional special rules for Catachans or whatever. They can both just be fielded as an "Imperial Guard Squad". There used to be 5 or more regiments and now there's 2 but still. Or if I make a devastator squad from a different chapters using chapter-specific models, they're still just a space marine devastator squad. And there might only be one space ork mob or whatever, but you can assemble it in any number of ways so there's no one official squad like in Legion. You might only have one or two product numbers associated with a unit (say, a box and a blister) but there's a lot more than one way to represent that thing on the table without varying from what's "official" at all.

Many games (especailly but not only historicals) don't always even have different base statlines for similar units in different factions.

GW still usually has multiple kits for many units, ie, differnet poses of generic officers, a multi-pose space marine tactical squad plus a push-together starter set tactical squad, etc.

Copyright aside, the historical gaming community would largely not stand for a company trying to impose their miniatures line on you. It's the reason a lot of those folks tell me they refuse to play 40k et al. "Why can't I use whatever space alien miniatures I want?".

As I said, the older kits yes. But all of their newer releases have been "this model is this unit," and GW is phasing out many of the older kits in favour of just a couple core boxes. There used to be about 3-5 more options for "imperial guard squad," and GW has stopped producing most of them.  The generic officers for Space Marines are more akin to the customization of the Sabine or Bossk kits, with different arm or head pieces, but only a single kit offered. Yes conversion is possible, but there is still only a single kit sold for that model.  Many of GW kits are multi-part plastic still, allowing for such conversions, but they're gradually releasing more and more push fit and single pose models. And official 40k tournaments are stricker WYSIWYG than Legion is, correct weapons have to be on every model including vehicles, and unlike Legion, third party conversion parts are rather uniformly not allowed. 

As well, Legion has different uniforms for different types of troopers, unlike GW where the uniforms are, well uniform across the different squads which better facilitates the kind of conversions you mentioned above. If all of the Rebel squads were in the same uniforms then mixing and matching to vary say the aliens in each squad is less of a big deal. But since a specific uniform corresponds to a specific unit, mixing uniforms becomes more confusing, making it less obvious what unit card is being represented. The main reason this matters is the statline differences that you touch upon, which make it tangentially related to using a Space Marine in Terminator armour to represent one in normal Power armour, which is more of a "proxy" than "conversion."

 

But a single company, even if that company is GW, hardly dictates the "norm" for the industry. I know of more companies that produce a single kit for a given unit and require you to use that model without significant modifications (Infinity, Guildball, Warmahordes, Sword of Fire and Ice[as far as I'm aware]) if they produce a model line at all. There are of course quite a few games (such as historicals) without any restrictions at all, either because the company doesn't produce miniatures, such as Gaslands, or because of the historical nature of the game (Saga, Bolt Action, etc etc). But typically I do not know of any company that is currently in the practice of releasing multiple kits to represent the same unit. As I said before, those kits from GW are among their older offerings (early 2000's). 

 

 

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