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UnitOmega

Pathfinders spoiled early, it seems

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@Caimheul1313
"You can't assume anything outside of the context of the question. Nothing requires me to take the Armament upgrade if I take Pathfinders, just as nothing requires me to take more than one Pathfinder unit. If I don't plan to use the Pathfinders as an aggressive deployment, or as an early sacrificial unit, then I don't HAVE to take more than one. I also don't HAVE to fill the heavy slot. 

Z-6 Trooper + 1 body on a rebel trooper unit would be better since it can be used every turn without requiring a recovery and is the same range as the default weapon on the unit, so no "hidden tax" to allow the rest of the unit to engage the same target. Plus it adds two wounds to the unit instead of just one. Or any number of other combination of upgrades that can be purchased for other units using those same 32 points. There's lots of better ways to invest 32 points than in a single model with an exhausting weapon."

Z-6 + Trooper adds 2 wounds (so, +1 wound is good...but those wounds are less effective than a Pathfinders because they have white surge dice without Danger Sense, but they do have access to Nimble...but that requires an action before someone fires on the unit...so definitely not as good compared to say, Pathfinders with Duck and Cover which grants the same effect on demand AND the extra white die).

Total damage increase is only +2 (1.125 hit, .875 crit) at ranges 1-3 vs the 2.125 from Bistan (1.5 hit, .625 crit) at ranges 1-4.

Given that the entire Pathfinder squad can engage at range 4, this increases the survivability compared to the Rebel tooper squad, and Bistan can engage sooner than the Z-6 and extra trooper while suffering less overall danger.

Summary: Bistan is a better upgrade.

I agree, there are plenty of possible combinations, I just don't see a lot of upgrades 'for other units' (important caveat apparently) that are providing more than Bistan does, exhaust or not. (again, exhaust for a range 4 weapon just means the unit is unlikely to move and fire, but at that range it also probably doesn't have to).

@MasterShake2
"Reminder, the whole unit, including Pao shoots at range 4.  I'd also say Pao is better at 22 than Bistan is at 32.  To each his own."

Right, it's not like Pao or Bistan's dice are forced to fire separately (unlike say, the HH-12 or DLT-19) from the rest of the unit. I'd still prioritize Bistan before Pao for the extra firepower, but I also think I'd deploy them using the long range config as fire support for the 3rd pathfinder unit and Jyn (since they all have to be deployed at range 4, it's very very likely I'd only put the scout 1 upgrade on the non-Pao/Bistan unit so it can move into position somewhere at range 3 of the nearest Imperial unit, and the short range config.

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Not sure anyone has mentioned this, but on the Infiltrate topic, the Imperials do have some ways to limit where the Pathfinders deploy. Imps can deploy some Scouts with Recon Intel early and push towards the center to push the Pathfinders back and Advanced Positions can contribute to this if they manage to get that Deployment.

I think Infiltrate is like anything else in this game, a powerful tool but one that can be countered if planned for.

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@Derrault There are plenty of ways to get a Dodge token without taking an action, and besides firing Bistan's weapon after the first turn takes two actions regardless, especially since Rebels don't have access to Refresh from command cards/other upgrades (at this time). And Danger Sense requires the Pathfinders to have taken suppression, which means they have been shot at and at the very least used Duck and Cover. I'd argue that two wounds with nimble are greater than 1 wound with Danger Sense, since Nimble cancels a hit from each attack while Danger Sense just lets you roll extra dice, increasing the odds that you will cancel at least one hit.

Again, the rest of the Pathfinder unit is only firing at Range 4 if an additional upgrade is taken, thus increasing the total cost of upgrades on the unit to 38 points. While you are asking for a better upgrade at 32 points, you are including an additional 6 point upgrade in determining his effectiveness.

A Speed 2 move for infantry is 6.16 inches, allowing infantry targets to move from Range 4-Range 3 in a single action leaving them with an attack action, and Snowtroopers can move 8.12 inches in a single activation while still attacking. In the mirror match, an AT-RT moves 7.86 inches with a single move , and the E-Web moves 5.76 , so unless you are almost perfectly at Range 4, a single move can put you in range of the E-web. Range 4 is nice to increasing threat radius, but it does not dramatically increase survivability given the movement distances for most units are right around the distance of a single range band. 

Honestly, the way you are talking about deploying them sounds like a great Palpatine, Vader, or AT-RT Flamethrower target, since you'll have at LEAST 400 points of your army within 24 inches of your opponent's models at the beginning of the game. It's almost like every deployment is Disarray, except the bulk of your opponent's forces will be concentrated, while yours are spread out. 

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2 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

Not sure anyone has mentioned this, but on the Infiltrate topic, the Imperials do have some ways to limit where the Pathfinders deploy. Imps can deploy some Scouts with Recon Intel early and push towards the center to push the Pathfinders back and Advanced Positions can contribute to this if they manage to get that Deployment.

I think Infiltrate is like anything else in this game, a powerful tool but one that can be countered if planned for.

It's Imperative to win the bid so you can at least drop one one objective. 

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2 hours ago, Docgimmethenews said:

It's Imperative to win the bid so you can at least drop one one objective. 

Can you elaborate what you mean? Of the objectives that involve the players choosing where the objective tokens are placed, all of them (now) involve each player selecting the location of an equal number of objectives. Infiltrate allows for easy turn 1 Moisture evaporator repair, for the units to be a speed bump/easy scoring unit in Breakthrough, turn 1 claim and run for Recover the Supplies, and an early game annoyance/claiming unit for Intercept the Transmissions and the new Key Positions. I don't see how bidding really enters in, since none of the current objectives are particularly BAD for infiltration.

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28 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Can you elaborate what you mean? Of the objectives that involve the players choosing where the objective tokens are placed, all of them (now) involve each player selecting the location of an equal number of objectives. Infiltrate allows for easy turn 1 Moisture evaporator repair, for the units to be a speed bump/easy scoring unit in Breakthrough, turn 1 claim and run for Recover the Supplies, and an early game annoyance/claiming unit for Intercept the Transmissions and the new Key Positions. I don't see how bidding really enters in, since none of the current objectives are particularly BAD for infiltration.

I think he's referring to getting first deployment before your opponent can counter deploy to exclude you from base to base contact with a central objective

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7 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I think he's referring to getting first deployment before your opponent can counter deploy to exclude you from base to base contact with a central objective

Possibly. I'm of the opinion that you should try to avoid placing your Infiltrate units first, since it gives your opponent significantly more information, and better enables them to place the rest of their units such that they can focus fire on the (probably) rather large points investment 2-3 Pathfinders and Jyn represents, before you are able to bring up supporting units.

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That's exactly what I'm talking about. Because how I see to use PFs, live and die on the objective, you want to at least deploy first so that your opponent cant block you from an objective...depending on the deployment setup.

 

But really honestly...all of this is so situational on when and how to deploy PFs...

Gametype

Terrain

Deployment zone

Condition 

Blah blah blah

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24 minutes ago, Docgimmethenews said:

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Because how I see to use PFs, live and die on the objective, you want to at least deploy first so that your opponent cant block you from an objective...depending on the deployment setup.

 

But really honestly...all of this is so situational on when and how to deploy PFs...

Gametype

Terrain

Deployment zone

Condition 

Blah blah blah

Seems like the ideal would be long march deployment, limited visibility and recover the supplies

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Ah, I see why I misread the initial message. Still, deploying within Range 3 of your opponent's Deployment zone as your first deployment is a good way for them to optimally place their scarier units (Snowtrooper flamers, Palpatine, Vader, AT-RT flamer, etc) within easy first turn attack distance of your Pathfinders, probably resulting in a quick end for the unit, and the quick loss of an activation. 

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28 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Ah, I see why I misread the initial message. Still, deploying within Range 3 of your opponent's Deployment zone as your first deployment is a good way for them to optimally place their scarier units (Snowtrooper flamers, Palpatine, Vader, AT-RT flamer, etc) within easy first turn attack distance of your Pathfinders, probably resulting in a quick end for the unit, and the quick loss of an activation. 

That is because you dont believe the PFs will hold out...I do, for the force is my ally. 

 

Lol

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Collecting Jyn and the pathfinders after work today. My store always seems to get them out a day before official release. Don't think there is anything left to spoil though.

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3 hours ago, Welshie13 said:

Collecting Jyn and the pathfinders after work today. My store always seems to get them out a day before official release. Don't think there is anything left to spoil though.

Our store quite frequently gets their delivery on Wednesday for the Thursday release. It's pretty common for a store to just sell the stuff the day they get it. FFG isn't very aggressive about street dates, so you're just lucky your store doesn't read the street date (if there even was one written somewhere). 

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3 hours ago, Welshie13 said:

Collecting Jyn and the pathfinders after work today. My store always seems to get them out a day before official release. Don't think there is anything left to spoil though.

Aren't we still missing one side of her Arsenal card?

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3 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

No, Pao becomes the leader mini, the old leader is just a normal mini now. 

So is that the same for the specialists???

If I build a squad with a rebel officer and add a Z6, that is 6 not 5??? As in RO, 4 minis, and the Z6?

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