Pathfinders spoiled early, it seems

[Derrault 1,091]

2 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

It looks like this unit basically lives suppressed, but because of Dauntless can still move and shoot every turn.  Problem is that doesn't leave any room for recover actions.  You basically have to be clearing almost all of your stress every turn to have an action left to recover and, frankly, I'm not sure the unit even wants to drop down that low on suppression.

True enough, although a single token does mean 1 cover and an extra white die against attackers. Given that the unit sheds at least one (if they want), I wouldn’t be too worried about actually hitting suppressed.

Dauntless mostly seems useful if you want to advance/retreat while fighting. Awesome if you’ve picked up a token and are fleeing the battle area ASAP. 

[Derrault 1,091]

2 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

The problem is that if the unit is threatened it might not be the right call to go low suppression even if you have the ability to do so.  Recover actions kind of suck.  Even if I had the action available, I think most other options are better.  Pao for life!  Keep shooting!

Yeah but these guys are both range 4; it’s not like they have to worry about a ton of incoming fire.

[MasterShake2 5,184]

Just now, Derrault said:

Yeah but these guys are both range 4; it’s not like they have to worry about a ton of incoming fire.

So aim and get a 1R 1W with a reroll in Pao over recovering and hard rolling 1B and 4W with Bistan.  If I'm not threatened, I'd rather aim than get Bistan's gun in.  That's the core issue with the Exhaust weapons is that, it's not like you can't get use out of that action in other ways and getting 1 gun online isn't exactly amazing next to just aiming.

[Derrault 1,091]

3 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

So aim and get a 1R 1W with a reroll in Pao over recovering and hard rolling 1B and 4W with Bistan.  If I'm not threatened, I'd rather aim than get Bistan's gun in.  That's the core issue with the Exhaust weapons is that, it's not like you can't get use out of that action in other ways and getting 1 gun online isn't exactly amazing next to just aiming.

With the surge to hit you’re probably getting a hit on the red or the black dice, and slightly under half the time getting one on each white die. Having 4x the white dice is the difference maker there. 

Edit: just to be clear, I think you should take both; but Bistan’s average output is higher (1.5 hit/.625 crit vs Pao’s 1 hit, .25 crit)

Edited February 19, 2019 by Derrault

[MasterShake2 5,184]

Just now, Derrault said:

With the surge to hit you’re probably getting a hit on the red or the black dice, and slightly under half the time getting one on each white die. Having 4x the white dice is the difference maker there. 

 

On average Bistan gets about 2.125 hits and Pao gets 1.25 hits, but factor in that Pao's unit aims and you get about the same result.

[Derrault 1,091]

10 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

On average Bistan gets about 2.125 hits and Pao gets 1.25 hits, but factor in that Pao's unit aims and you get about the same result.

I mean, the aim only rerolls 2 dice, so it, at most, converts 2 misses to hits; if one of those misses is Pao’s red die (1/8 chance of a miss, 7/8 of a hit) and the other is a white die (5/8 miss, 3/8 hit); it’s an average of +1.25 damage (1 hit, .25 crit) but that only holds in the 1/8 times the red die didn’t already hit/crit; in the other 7/8 cases, it’s two white dice: only .75 damage (.5 hit, .25 crit)

Normalized that’s worth: +.8125 total

The difference between Pao (1.25) and Bistan (2.125) is 1.3125, still greater than the aim token value for Pao’s unit (at ranges other than close). 

Edit: .5 greater actually. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Derrault

[MasterShake2 5,184]

5 minutes ago, Derrault said:

I mean, the aim only rerolls 2 dice, so it, at most, converts 2 misses to hits; if one of those misses is Pao’s red die (1/8 chance of a miss, 7/8 of a hit) and the other is a white die (5/8 miss, 3/8 hit); it’s an average of +1.25 damage (1 hit, .25 crit) but that only holds in the 1/8 times the red die didn’t already hit/crit; in the other 7/8 cases, it’s two white dice: only .75 damage (.5 hit, .25 crit)

Normalized that’s worth: +.8125 total

The difference between Pao (1.25) and Bistan (2.125) is 1.3125, still greater than the aim token value for Pao’s unit (at ranges other than close). 

Edit: .5 greater actually. 

 

.375 x 2 is .75, expected added value of rolling 2 additional white dice i.e. a pair of re-rolls.  Put's Pao + aim at 2 vs. Bistan's 2.125 and he's 10pts cheaper and can still work even when your unit doesn't have the ability to recover.

Edited February 19, 2019 by MasterShake2

[Derrault 1,091]

8 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

.375 x 2 is .75, expected added value of rolling 2 additional white dice i.e. a pair of re-rolls.  Put's Pao + aim at 2 vs. Bistan's 2.125 and he's 10pts cheaper and can still work even when your unit doesn't have the ability to recover.

.75 for two white dice is right, but it’s only 2 white dice if Pao’s red die doesn’t miss, because then you’d choose to reroll the red die. So 1/8 (the number of misses on a red die) you’d choose the red die and a white die, which raises the value slightly above the .75 of 2 white dice). 

Pao is nice, for sure, but Bistan is absolutely worth taking for only 10 points more. The exhaust isn’t problematic

[MasterShake2 5,184]

4 minutes ago, Derrault said:

.75 for two white dice is right, but it’s only 2 white dice if Pao’s red die doesn’t miss, because then you’d choose to reroll the red die. So 1/8 (the number of misses on a red die) you’d choose the red die and a white die, which raises the value slightly above the .75 of 2 white dice). 

Pao is nice, for sure, but Bistan is absolutely worth taking for only 10 points more. The exhaust isn’t problematic

 

Only 10pts more and Exhaust...you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one becuase both of those are really big deals and what Bistan brings frankly isn't.

[arnoldrew 1,713]

1 hour ago, Docgimmethenews said:

Ultimately, ya'll, I really see this as an Ambush Unit.

Live and die on the objective.

And remember, recover doesn't have remove any suppression. So you can keep 3 on them the whole time and still refresh, reconfigure, without removing suppression.

It is extreamly lovely to have this unit.

Turn 0: drop PFs on or near objective of choice. With long range config.

Turn 1: fire and suppress, exhast Bistan. Enemy comes into range 3.

Turn 2: recover/reconfig to SRC. Exhaust Bistan.

Turn 3-6: rinse and repeat until death or victory

I see no movements with this unit.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if they have 3 suppression then they will only have one action per turn, period. You probably don't want to use your entire turn Recovering just to flip a card.

[Docgimmethenews 176]

12 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if they have 3 suppression then they will only have one action per turn, period. You probably don't want to use your entire turn Recovering just to flip a card.

Fair enough...

I'll have to think about that

Edit:

Ok I think I figured out how you can do this rinse/wash/ repeat business I was talking about.

Turn 1: exhaust Bistan. 

T2: If 0-1 suppression is on Bistan, recover and fire (always keep 1 supression). Then use dauntless gain suppression, make partial movement or no movement. Use duck/cover gain 3rd suppression.

If 2 or more supression...wait until Pao and or Jyn with Strict orders can reduce Bistan to 1 supression. Then use Bistan as directed on top.

T3: by this time you should either have Leia or Rebel Officer(s) up close enough to Inspire. So the combinations of Inspire/Strict Orders/Dauntless/Duck and Cover should be able to have you use Bistan every turn.

Again, this is all predicated upon the idea of using PFs as an entrenched ambush unit that will live and die upon the objective.

This is just how I see PFs being used to thier maximum potential. This is how I see winning the objective.

Edit 2:

Holy moly...nitpicky much guys?

The whole point I'm saying it that the combination tricks you can use to remove and add suppression is wide and wonderful. The real trick is to keep at least one suppression always on Bistan. Because then you can use D/C. Then use Dauntless...

I'm so sorry if I went out of order. Cause you're right. I cant use dauntless unless it has 2 suppression on it....whoopee. The effect remains. You can be very clever and resourceful enough to utilize Bistan every turn.

Of course there is luck and it's not a surefire thing all the time, but again...wow

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Docgimmethenews

[Derrault 1,091]

3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Only 10pts more and Exhaust...you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one becuase both of those are really big deals and what Bistan brings frankly isn't.

I mean, if you happen to know of a better upgrade for 32 points, I’d love to see it.

Reminder, he’s 5 dice at range 4. 

[Caimheul1313 2,990]

4 hours ago, Derrault said:

Yeah but these guys are both range 4; it’s not like they have to worry about a ton of incoming fire.

In the current "take 1-3 sniper weapons teams" meta, plus with DTLs being the most taken Empire Heavy weapon, that's a fair amount of incoming fire.

1 hour ago, Docgimmethenews said:

T2: If 0-1 suppression is on Bistan, recover and fire (always keep 1 supression). Then use dauntless gain suppression, make partial movement or no movement. Use duck/cover gain 3rd suppression.

 

You can't use Dauntless with only one suppression. 

Quote

If a trooper unit ever has a number of suppression tokens assigned to it that is equal to or greater than that unit's courage value, that unit is suppressed.

 Dauntless only works when a unit is already suppressed (2 Suppression tokens for Pathfinders), and I believe the movement has to be the first thing you do on the activation, unless I also misunderstood Inspire X. 

52 minutes ago, Derrault said:

I mean, if you happen to know of a better upgrade for 32 points, I’d love to see it.

Reminder, he’s 5 dice at range 4. 

Again: Only on turns where the unit can take a Recovery action before attacking. 

For 28 points I can take Pao AND the A-300 Long Range Config Armament upgrade giving the unit 1 red dice and 5 white at Range 4. With the remaining 4 points I can give two units Recon Info, letting them start moving to better positions before the game starts. 

[Derrault 1,091]

11 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

RsIn the current "take 1-3 sniper weapons teams" meta, plus with DTLs being the most taken Empire Heavy weapon, that's a fair amount of incoming fire.

You can't use Dauntless with only one suppression. 

 Dauntless only works when a unit is already suppressed (2 Suppression tokens for Pathfinders), and I believe the movement has to be the first thing you do on the activation, unless I also misunderstood Inspire X. 

Again: Only on turns where the unit can take a Recovery action before attacking. 

For 28 points I can take Pao AND the A-300 Long Range Config Armament upgrade giving the unit 1 red dice and 5 white at Range 4. With the remaining 4 points I can give two units Recon Info, letting them start moving to better positions before the game starts. 

If we are taking Pathfinders it’s safe to assume they have the config Upgrade already. And if we take multiple pathfinder units, then it’s safe to assume we have Pao already.

Since it must not have been clear: What non-Pathfinder upgrade for 32 points is better?

[Caimheul1313 2,990]

Just now, Derrault said:

If we are taking Pathfinders it’s safe to assume they have the config Upgrade already. And if we take multiple pathfinder units, then it’s safe to assume we have Pao already.

Since it must not have been clear: What non-Pathfinder upgrade for 32 points is better?

You can't assume anything outside of the context of the question. Nothing requires me to take the Armament upgrade if I take Pathfinders, just as nothing requires me to take more than one Pathfinder unit. If I don't plan to use the Pathfinders as an aggressive deployment, or as an early sacrificial unit, then I don't HAVE to take more than one. I also don't HAVE to fill the heavy slot.

Z-6 Trooper + 1 body on a rebel trooper unit would be better since it can be used every turn without requiring a recovery and is the same range as the default weapon on the unit, so no "hidden tax" to allow the rest of the unit to engage the same target. Plus it adds two wounds to the unit instead of just one. Or any number of other combination of upgrades that can be purchased for other units using those same 32 points. There's lots of better ways to invest 32 points than in a single model with an exhausting weapon.

[MasterShake2 5,184]

7 hours ago, Derrault said:

I mean, if you happen to know of a better upgrade for 32 points, I’d love to see it.

Reminder, he’s 5 dice at range 4. 

 

Reminder, the whole unit, including Pao shoots at range 4.  I'd also say Pao is better at 22 than Bistan is at 32.  To each his own.

[Matt Antilles 333]

I'm pretty whelmed by Bistan until I consider what is about to enter the ecosystem; Occupiers flinging Vader/Palp/Snows/IRG in my face. Suddenly Ion, especially R4 Ion, may actually be worth its points. I'm still skeptical, but there is definitely a real reason for it lumbering on the horizon.

[Docgimmethenews 176]

8 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

You can't assume anything outside of the context of the question. Nothing requires me to take the Armament upgrade if I take Pathfinders, just as nothing requires me to take more than one Pathfinder unit. If I don't plan to use the Pathfinders as an aggressive deployment, or as an early sacrificial unit, then I don't HAVE to take more than one. I also don't HAVE to fill the heavy slot.

Z-6 Trooper + 1 body on a rebel trooper unit would be better since it can be used every turn without requiring a recovery and is the same range as the default weapon on the unit, so no "hidden tax" to allow the rest of the unit to engage the same target. Plus it adds two wounds to the unit instead of just one. Or any number of other combination of upgrades that can be purchased for other units using those same 32 points. There's lots of better ways to invest 32 points than in a single model with an exhausting weapon.

Correct. He does not have to utilize PFs as an aggressive ambush unit.

He may see PFs as something different.

Heck...he dont have to use em at all!!!!

[buckero0 1,956]

1 hour ago, Matt Antilles said:

I'm pretty whelmed by Bistan until I consider what is about to enter the ecosystem; Occupiers flinging Vader/Palp/Snows/IRG in my face. Suddenly Ion, especially R4 Ion, may actually be worth its points. I'm still skeptical, but there is definitely a real reason for it lumbering on the horizon.

this was the only reason I could think of to take Bistan.  things seem to change rapidly in this game, and 32 pts is a small price to pay for near guaranteed wounds on a large tank. Especially from a flanking position of safety.

Edited February 19, 2019 by buckero0

[Caimheul1313 2,990]

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

this was the only reason I could think of to take Bistan.  things seem to change rapidly in this game, and 32 pts is a small price to pay for near guaranteed wounds on a large tank. Especially from a flanking position of safety.

An MPL-57 is arguably better for the same cost for the same role, since with two red dice it is significantly more likely to be able to take advantage of the net Impact 2 from shooting at the side arc. Plus, the tank rolls red defense dice so it's a single "near guaranteed" wound, and from what I can see the hardpoint weapons don't have "Fixed: Front" so are still able to shoot at any flanking squads. 

[UnitOmega 2,818]

The Occupier definitely seems rigged more to be able to deal with infantry, yeah, the pintle-mount probably won't be fixed, and you don't pay extra for the Suppressive weapon. 

[buckero0 1,956]

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

An MPL-57 is arguably better for the same cost for the same role, since with two red dice it is significantly more likely to be able to take advantage of the net Impact 2 from shooting at the side arc. Plus, the tank rolls red defense dice so it's a single "near guaranteed" wound, and from what I can see the hardpoint weapons don't have "Fixed: Front" so are still able to shoot at any flanking squads. 

You think the pintle-mounted dlt will have range 4?  The Imperial tank seems to have quite a bit of contradictory ranges going on, ATST does the same thing which is very annoying.

[Caimheul1313 2,990]

1 minute ago, buckero0 said:

You think the pintle-mounted dlt will have range 4?  The Imperial tank seems to have quite a bit of contradictory ranges going on, ATST does the same thing which is very annoying.

It's quite possible. Pintle mounted doesn't mean shorter range. It might even be Range 4 with more dice. We'll find out whenever someone gets a preview copy or FFG does another article. Either isn't likely for a fair number of weeks yet.

[UnitOmega 2,818]

FFG is pretty consistent that "weapon a" is "weapon a". The only exception is really heroes' guns, which are way better because that's how Star Wars works. If they wanted it not to have normal DLT features, they could pick another weapon from the incredible prop back catalog, because the original TX-225 prop doesn't have a commander gun. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by UnitOmega

[KommanderKeldoth 3,141]

23 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

You think the pintle-mounted dlt will have range 4?  The Imperial tank seems to have quite a bit of contradictory ranges going on, ATST does the same thing which is very annoying.

It is that way by design.  It gives each weapon a different character and use, and it creates different zones of fire to make both players think more strategically about movement.  It would be kinda boring if you could just throw max weapon dice at every target at all range bands.