Jump to content
Boom Owl

TIE Silencer: Kylo Ren

Recommended Posts

12 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

2 dice with no tricks don't deal damage

I should start sending the stream of Phil's games to people when they say this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, svelok said:

I should start sending the stream of Phil's games to people when they say this.

True, but he is not restricted to rolling 1 paint at a time unless the opponent natties 2 evades! I saw the stream, admiring the gutsy list that does not pile mods like crazy. And I seethe in envy, wondering why my Howlrunner mini-swarms barely dent T70's with 4 shots on target, dreaming of a 2 die life beyond the blank...

And that's why Advanced Optics with Fanatical are EPIC! Waiting for sensor cluster now!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Boom Owl Should we revive this thread now that we have had a good month to digest the biggest upgrade from the new wave? Specifically, gas clouds, which have entered the discussion as a necessary obstacle for hatchetman?

In my experience, they make Kylo's games even moreso about positioning thanks to their sanctimonious evening out of variance into a mathematically reliable result to calculate with. The main argument against a 100-120 point Kylo was that a bad roll could kill you and with so much spam, it was difficult to consistently get shots and not be in arc at the same time, hence leaving the optimal play to be a balance of tanking a few weak shots whilst pumping out the damage. The problem with that is, you take enough potshots to catch up on points, and you inevitably will get rekt by some stupid lucky shot. With the clouds, it becomes so much easier to breathe with all those points in a single chassis. And although it can be tricky to consistently get a gas cloud shield every turn for a lot of chassis unless you're a god at area and engagement control, Supernatural Reflexes trivialize the matter. Heck, Kylo doesn't have to envy that purple evade now, as he can just will his way to a cloud and bump those odds of blankout from a massive 5% to 0%. The odds from getting stuck with that all-familiar singular paint on your entire roll drop from a whopping 32% to 2%. (this is assuming that the obstruction is getting you an extra die, of course, as that is the most common situation)

Kylo eating 3 dice fully modded whilst exposed with a focus: a whopping 68% of damage. Sounds about right for those turns where Poe snipes my Kylo. Guess I gotta git gud. Or...

Kylo, knowing where Poe is coming, and casually parking so that the only engagement point is obstructed: 27%. I can't comment on how proper this feels in my experience, given how often he can just kill all the friends and nope away from Poe. Now my Kylo can just chill at range 3 behind a cloud from Poe's buddies whilst locking a non-obstructed friend of Poe's that he just dodged.  Across 2 hits each for 3 attacks against a single force in reserve, the expected damage is.... 0.045 of a shield. Quite the drop from the 50-50 chance of a hit if that cloud were a rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unpopular opinion: Blackout needs sensor slot back, even if Kylo doesn't.

That said, would AS be that busted on Kylo? It would free him up to take hate and then have room for a wingman. SR and AS is dumb, but if SR gets errataed to work like AS, maybe it could get cheaper again and break that combo? It's also 110 points for just Kylo+SR+AS and I don't see it easily dodging 110 points of arcs and killing 110 points of ships, but I could be wrong about that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Unpopular opinion: Blackout needs sensor slot back, even if Kylo doesn't.

That said, would AS be that busted on Kylo? It would free him up to take hate and then have room for a wingman. SR and AS is dumb, but if SR gets errataed to work like AS, maybe it could get cheaper again and break that combo? It's also 110 points for just Kylo+SR+AS and I don't see it easily dodging 110 points of arcs and killing 110 points of ships, but I could be wrong about that.

Yeah, collision detector seems awesome, but Pattern Analyzer + Trickshot mitigates the pain of not having it (as does a shuttle, if you have one in the list). This is the basic strat for continuously proc'ing the ability and having actions with reliably consistency. Sure, not 100% consistency given that everything depends on game state and a flank, arc-dodge, or even running into a clear area could situationally be better, but anyway...

  1.  Slow roll/charge to the clouds. Force the engagement there. If all the obstacles are spread far and wide, I am sorry, you have failed turn 0. It's a painful lesson that becomes learned quickly.
  2.  On the turn of engagement, turn in to face a cloud at an angle such that no reposition is needed to obtain the obstruction shot, thereby allowing you to focus in your spot and not be stressed.
    1. Bonus points if the obstacle is not entirely blocking the front of your ship, thereby allowing options to shenanigan with.
    2. Extra bonus points if you had to barrel roll for obstruction, you dodge a whole lot of arcs doing so. This is typically because the ability baited your opponent to cover a spot in assuming that you were greedy for it, but you just still get the obstruction in addition to extra dice and the dodge.
  3. If you are not stressed, perform a red move. Doesn't matter if it overlaps the cloud, as it skips the perform action step, and Pattern Analyzer occurs in the maneuver phase. Again, position it nicely, and you get both focus and obstruction. Only double-stress in a comfortable endgame and if you really need it.
  4. If you want to disengage and have fears of being blocked, the red move works as well, allowing you more options to act and run off from the likes of swarms. 
  5. If you want to disengage and have fears of an ace closing in, yeet that 5 straight. Sure, perhaps no actions, but if your field is laid out correctly, you will be inside a cloud with your front guides open. 1.0 Reinforce for days!
  6. Lots of people are playing gas clouds, don't sweat it, and reap the benefits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I admit that I'm a Kylo scrub (my supernatural 2 ship Kylo's were OK or winning for kit and store tourneys but consistently failed to break beyond 3-3 at regional level, yet the instant I netlist 2U Kylo, I finally do much better), and thus I want to revitalize this thread, especially with FO price cuts. Specifically, Phil Horny's winning list for the Top 50 invitational (because every other winning Kylo list involves 2 shuttles). 

I'm thinking that with the price cuts, there are a lot more options for the filler in Kylo + QD. With so many shots out there, yet the protective shroud of gas clouds, I think Commander Malarus might be good. Thoughts, or should I just be like Phil GC and properly git gud at 2 ship aces so I can move last and eat my cake too?

Kylo Ren (76)    
    Supernatural Reflexes (24)    
    
Ship total: 100  Half Points: 50  Threshold: 3    
    
"Quickdraw" (45)    
    Fanatical (2)    
    Special Forces Gunner (10)    
    Fire-Control System (2)    
    
Ship total: 59  Half Points: 30  Threshold: 3    
    
Commander Malarus (39)    
    Predator (2)    
    
Ship total: 41  Half Points: 21  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZsZ200Z236X74WWWY243X181WWW182W113WY266X127WW&sn=New Squadron&obs=

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

I'm thinking that with the price cuts, there are a lot more options for the filler in Kylo + QD. With so many shots out there, yet the protective shroud of gas clouds, I think Commander Malarus might be good. Thoughts, or should I just be like Phil GC and properly git gud at 2 ship aces so I can move last and eat my cake too?

Interesting hot take on gas clouds. I tend to despise them, but Malarus makes some sense if you get in the scrum to cover her back.

14 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

I admit that I'm a Kylo scrub (my supernatural 2 ship Kylo's were OK or winning for kit and store tourneys but consistently failed to break beyond 3-3 at regional level, yet the instant I netlist 2U Kylo, I finally do much better), and thus I want to revitalize this thread, especially with FO price cuts. Specifically, Phil Horny's winning list for the Top 50 invitational (because every other winning Kylo list involves 2 shuttles). 

What's wrong with 2 Upsilon shuttles? That's some of the most fun I have flying First Order.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

What's wrong with 2 Upsilon shuttles? That's some of the most fun I have flying First Order.

Nothing, they're very good. Thanisson was loads of fun when you could fit him and Tavson in the same list as Kylo. Just wanting to push the envelope on SNR Kylo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, player3010587 said:

Kylo Ren (76)    

    Supernatural Reflexes (24)    
    
Ship total: 100  Half Points: 50  Threshold: 3    
    
"Quickdraw" (45)    
    Fanatical (2)    
    Special Forces Gunner (10)    
    Fire-Control System (2)    
    
Ship total: 59  Half Points: 30  Threshold: 3    
    
Commander Malarus (39)    
    Predator (2)    
    
Ship total: 41  Half Points: 21  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZsZ200Z236X74WWWY243X181WWW182W113WY266X127WW&sn=New Squadron&obs=

My 2-bit knee-jerk is that he needs Primed Thrusters if you really want to open up his autothrusters.

Also I’d probably skip out on QD and get 2 SFs with gunner, fanatical, and passive missiles if they fit. They can block, tank, or punch for him if they have to, and they never miss a shot.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

New question: What if the Silencer did get its sensor slot back? It would make Blackout a lot more versatile for sure, but it turns off autothrusters.

As mentioned before, Super Kylo could Repo-action every turn, which is pretty strong (though the v1 can already and doesn't have to skip its perform action step), but is it that much better than Pattern Analyzer for 3 points more? 132 points turns into a huge loss if you do get caught, and with passive Protorp spam going around and I6 still having a decent presence, how bad could it really be?

He'd really suffer against Poe, Anakin, Vader, Soontir, Punishers, N-1s, Hyenas, ESC Vultures, and really any 3-primary spam lists, and all of those are in the meta. Plus no evade hurts.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

New question: What if the Silencer did get its sensor slot back? It would make Blackout a lot more versatile for sure, but it turns off autothrusters.

As mentioned before, Super Kylo could Repo-action every turn, which is pretty strong (though the v1 can already and doesn't have to skip its perform action step), but is it that much better than Pattern Analyzer for 3 points more? 132 points turns into a huge loss if you do get caught, and with passive Protorp spam going around and I6 still having a decent presence, how bad could it really be?

He'd really suffer against Poe, Anakin, Vader, Soontir, Punishers, N-1s, Hyenas, ESC Vultures, and really any 3-primary spam lists, and all of those are in the meta. Plus no evade hurts.

I kinda think saving 14 points on Supernatural Kylo Ren would be IMMENSE.  It's less powerful in the single ship, but it becomes a heck of a lot easier to build an actually-good list around him.  86 for just AdvS Kylo would be a nasty piece, able to fit into a list of just decent ships.  89 with Hate, 91 with Sense.  Yowch.  Sense AdvS Kylo would be really good.  Fanatical Midnight, Fanatical FCS Gunner Quickdraw, Sense AdvS Kylo.  Even carries a 5-point bid.

Kylo with Heightened Perception and Passive Sensors would also be a nasty piece of work.  Lock or Calculate and Boost or Barrel Roll at Init 5, Init 7 if you feel like spending a Force.  Adding Primed Thrusters would even let you double-reposition at Init 7 in the engagement phase, now that I think about it, but having two stress might be awkward to deal with... Or not, since Primed Thrusters.

2 hours ago, Parakitor said:

What's wrong with 2 Upsilon shuttles? That's some of the most fun I have flying First Order.

To each their own. I think Upsilons are kinda boring.  That's why each faction has more than one ship :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I kinda think saving 14 points on Supernatural Kylo Ren would be IMMENSE.  It's less powerful in the single ship, but it becomes a heck of a lot easier to build an actually-good list around him.  86 for just AdvS Kylo would be a nasty piece, able to fit into a list of just decent ships.  89 with Hate, 91 with Sense.  Yowch.  Sense AdvS Kylo would be really good.  Fanatical Midnight, Fanatical FCS Gunner Quickdraw, Sense AdvS Kylo.  Even carries a 5-point bid.

Kylo with Heightened Perception and Passive Sensors would also be a nasty piece of work.  Lock or Calculate and Boost or Barrel Roll at Init 5, Init 7 if you feel like spending a Force.  Adding Primed Thrusters would even let you double-reposition at Init 7 in the engagement phase, now that I think about it, but having two stress might be awkward to deal with... Or not, since Primed Thrusters.

It would be pretty powerful, but AS destroys his otherwise-incredible action economy and leaves him basically modless, or Passive Sensors makes him... really interesting. The real question: Is either of these actually abusive/underpriced/broken? They're options I'd like to see and the Sensor slot has always seemed thematic to me on the Silencer. Its absence is especially felt on the non-Kylo pilots.

They could also do the Hyena thing and give it to everyone except him, but that might be too anti-thematic. I guess they could justify it with some silly "force users don't need your fancy technology" but they're probably better off keeping them similar.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ryuneke said:

I would use Scorch with Fanatical instead of Malarus. Gives you a 5 point bid and Scorch has a 3 dice gun.

Another option would be Lieutenant Rivas.  He's wicked cheap (so points for maybe Pattern Analyzer on Kylo or bid or such), can do decently as a blocker, and his pilot ability can snag him some bonus Locks really easily.

I guess a generic TIE/sf would also fit, but I don't know if they're worth it as singletons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

My 2-bit knee-jerk is that he needs Primed Thrusters if you really want to open up his autothrusters.

Also I’d probably skip out on QD and get 2 SFs with gunner, fanatical, and passive missiles if they fit. They can block, tank, or punch for him if they have to, and they never miss a shot.

Kylo's autothrusters work well both before and after supernatural reflexes (if you go without, unfortunately he flies like his weaker albeit still godlike 1st edition version). Both Pattern Analyzer and Optics are viable alternatives to it, especially with its 9 pt price tag (I mean, even a naked Kylo wants to be pricey as a points fortress, but flexibility in the price is always good for squad building). I've tried the 2 SFs a few times, and although they're pretty good, they can get chumped pretty hard from range 3 like a passive sensor gunboat. Great as 3 ship spam, depressing to get vaporized as 1 ship. And when I did the generic SF with Quickdraw as the sidekicks, the generic was the weaker link, often not getting to shoot despite range and obstruction, but Kylo and Quickdraw were able to mop up because Kylo and Quickdraw by themselves are a pretty good list and they just had a less effective Biggs.

13 hours ago, Ryuneke said:

I would use Scorch with Fanatical instead of Malarus. Gives you a 5 point bid and Scorch has a 3 dice gun.

I think you're right. I just wanted a more variance-proof sidekick than Null, but then again, Scorch is fewer points to get diced away than Malarus (who can still roll blanks with his evade).

Again, I think Phil Horny's list is still good, but full mod Quickdraw failing to punch damage feels bad, especially with more and more jedi on the scene. Kylo can still clean, but if your Quickdraw dice fall flat against a player of equal or better skill, that's straight up game over. 2 ship Kylo fixes this with a silly bid and afterburners on Quickdraw, but atm, 3+ ships seem easiest for long tourneys. Some thoughts with very few datapoints, and here I'm hoping that the Kylo gods show up in this thread and tell me where I'm wrong and how to fix it.

Super Kylo + Biohexacrypt Tavson + Optic Null. Trading Quickdraw from a rather good archetype for Super Kylo and an I7 filler. Coordinate evade really opens Null's maneuvers or actions, and optics have proven to be effective on him. I tend to use Tavson as area control for safe zones for Kylo to swoop by. I doubt that it's better than a tricked out Blackout, Tavson, and tricked out Midnight, which can also have a pretty good bid.

Super Kylo + Fanatical Scorch + Optic Null + TN-3465. Only got 1 game with this, so idk, lol. 3 bothersome FO's don't command the area like an Upsilon or function as the bait like a single Quickdraw or Blackout, but cheap FO's are fun. I will say that TN's ability seems far less janky than usual when your ships are all different inits. Rivas would have been a far better choice, even though his ability wouldn't be for the designed effect of charging targeting sync for munition spam.

In the meantime, I'll still practice Kylo 2U for Gencon with the pickup games trying to generate something more likely to destroy 200 pt than going to time (2 ship Kylo far too often does the latter, and I'm a very fast player [the time your opponent spends moving/shooting should be spent for the beta version of your dial selection]). Predictive shot, as bad as it is on paper, continues to surprise me as to how often it results in *probably* more damage (you don't know if those extra dice your opponent would have rolled would have been blanks or not). With evade tokens becoming more commonplace in Hyperspace, it might lose its slight edge.

I wonder if this unholy combination of @MegaSilver and Phil Horny's FO squad building philosophy is worth a look. Kylo + Blackout, if given patience and good game sense, are pretty good either as 2 superships or as 2 near-vanilla with a pocket I6+ ace. Blackout can yeet better than Quickdraw, and even without Trickshot, has a very good exchange rate when the firing arcs nick gas clouds (especially with the N-1's beginning to appear more often, plus, you should be prepared to see your opponent natty evades and have contingency plans like reducing the number of evades to natty or pouring buckets of red dice into the mix). In the age of gas clouds, you can now fit a super kylo, a fanatical blackout, and 35 pt of TIE FO. Whack.

Kylo Ren (76)    
    Supernatural Reflexes (24)    
    
Ship total: 100  Half Points: 50  Threshold: 3    
    
"Blackout" (63)    
    Fanatical (2)    
    
Ship total: 65  Half Points: 33  Threshold: 3    
    
"Null" (31)    
    Advanced Optics (4)    
    
Ship total: 35  Half Points: 18  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 200    

Edited by player3010587

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rivas is only 28 pts, so not much lost when he dies. Plus, good synergy with QD and a neato blocker. Made cut with him at Pittsburgh with QD and Super Kylo.

I know the showcase of this thread is Kylo himself, but the wingmen influence builds, gameflow, and strats. I think we should talk about them, especially with *Composure Abuser* Vonreg incoming. If the points fit, even a lean Vonreg and Rivas could be the meanest wingmen to Super Kylo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, player3010587 said:

Rivas is only 28 pts, so not much lost when he dies. Plus, good synergy with QD and a neato blocker. Made cut with him at Pittsburgh with QD and Super Kylo.

I know the showcase of this thread is Kylo himself, but the wingmen influence builds, gameflow, and strats. I think we should talk about them, especially with *Composure Abuser* Vonreg incoming. If the points fit, even a lean Vonreg and Rivas could be the meanest wingmen to Super Kylo.

Hey, I'mma let you finish, but Scorch is the best TIE FO of all time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Hey, I'mma let you finish, but Scorch is the best TIE FO of all time.

Flew him at Gencon. His pricetag said no optics for Kylo, and when he incessantly chumped out even on potshot defense, I was essentially flushing 36 MOV down instead of 28 on a blocker.

Lol, no

Edited by player3010587

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, player3010587 said:

Flew him at Gencon. His pricetag said no optics for Kylo, and when he incessantly chumped out even on potshot defense, I was essentially flushing 36 MOV down instead of 28 on a blocker.

Lol, no

Squad Leader Muse got me a World's ticket for next year in the Hyperspace side event @ Aust SOS! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, dsul413 said:

Well now you need to tell us the rest of the list!

Full Frontal

(76) Kylo Ren [TIE/vn Silencer]

(5) Sense

(4) Advanced Optics

Points: 85

(45) "Quickdraw" [TIE/sf Fighter]

(10) Special Forces Gunner

(6) Afterburners

(2) Fire-Control System

(3) Elusive

(5) Pattern Analyzer

Points: 71

(31) "Muse" [TIE/fo Fighter]

(6) Squad Leader

(1) Biohexacrypt Codes

Points: 38

Total points: 194

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got my invite losing to Rhinehart in a final with this!

Kylo Ren (76)    
    Supernatural Reflexes (24)    
    Advanced Optics (4)    
    
Ship total: 104  Half Points: 52  Threshold: 3    
    
"Quickdraw" (45)    
    Fanatical (2)    
    Special Forces Gunner (10)    
    Fire-Control System (2)    
    
Ship total: 59  Half Points: 30  Threshold: 3    
    
Lieutenant Rivas (28)    
Ship total: 28  Half Points: 14  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 191    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZhZ200Z236X74W186WWY243X181WWW182W113WY265XW&sn=Thank The Maker for Optics and Their Consistency&obs=

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...