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TIE Silencer: Kylo Ren

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Nice review!

Not a FO guy myself, but Kylo in all varieties is a force to recon with right now when fit with the other FO terrors available.

My gut says that your skinny Kylo is the right choice since the meta is going to be 4/5 ship counts generally since the 1st quarter update. 

Edited by Bucknife

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I took Kylo to a tournament yesterday with QD and an Omega expert. Went 2-2. Not bad considering it was my first time fielding Kylo. He’s wonderful. I just had Optics on him and that’s enough to make him dangerous.

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Unpopular opinion, especially from a Kylo main: primed thrusters are not training wheels, but what unlock your imagination with Kylo. If you dial correctly and not necessarily just stick to blue, there are 0 ways any given ship can have arc on him (but alas, the game involves more than 1 ship, and thus the care needed). You can also charge through debris then repo for modded shots, but considering how I was 3 for 4 in rolling crits on debris last tourney (and 2 for 3 the one before that), I should probably tone my agressive gameplay down. But the best part of primed thrusters is that before and after a talon roll, you can dodge arcs and get shots, albeit lightly modded.

For casual matches, h8 is gr8, m8! You can always show the dark side and have a permafocus interceptor. Instinctive aim is a bit tricky to use even with the synergy with optics, as it devours Kylo's already strained force. As for munitions, there are literally no wrong choices, although certain lists prefer a specific one and most rather take only one secondary weapon.

Despite his massive 2nd edition buffs, he really misses his variance failsafes from 1st edition: blue 3 banks for the ultimate yeet, autothrusters, a title that let's you only focus for full mods, the same title that works as a mulligan, and a busted damage deck that made his ability even better. Now I know what it was like to he a 1e Corran main! Kylo's skill ceiling has been raised to the moon, but his skill floor has plummeted to EA popularity levels (does that make him the Dark Souls of X Wing? Actually no, as Dark Souls is not defined solely by a difficult yet rewarding complicated combat system, but I wanted to make the joke. Besides, an edgelord like him would default to Bloodborne out of hip fawning over Lovecraftian Horror). He will win a few premier events and regionals this year, but sure as **** not by me!

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Out of everything the Silencers lost (not like they were popular at all in 1.0) those blue 3 banks hurts the most.

Every game I play I miss them.

I'd love to see them get the Sensor slot back, not like there is anything OP in that slot for them. I'd love to also see 1.0 Sensor Cluster back (@ 5pts).

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6 hours ago, Deffly said:

Out of everything the Silencers lost (not like they were popular at all in 1.0) those blue 3 banks hurts the most.

Every game I play I miss them.

I'd love to see them get the Sensor slot back, not like there is anything OP in that slot for them. I'd love to also see 1.0 Sensor Cluster back (@ 5pts).

Supernatural Advanced Sensors would be busted. You could reposition, snag a lock, and then red maneuver. Blackout would abuse collision detector.

I'm all for sensor cluster, even more than primed thrusters.

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16 hours ago, kempokid said:

I would absolutely pay another 10 points to have him at 6. But a healthy bid goes a long way.

 

16 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

I-5...he’s almost great.

I mean, he's pretty much in the exact same spot he was last edition in terms of initiative.  He was a PS9, but he wasn't taking VI, so there were a lot of strong pilots above him, just as there are now.   He's not as strong in this edition, but that's for reasons other than his initiative. 

 

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1 hour ago, AlexW said:

 

 

I mean, he's pretty much in the exact same spot he was last edition in terms of initiative.  He was a PS9, but he wasn't taking VI, so there were a lot of strong pilots above him, just as there are now.   He's not as strong in this edition, but that's for reasons other than his initiative. 

 

And now that Supernatural is 24 on him, I'm glad he's not I6--it would leave nothing left in terms of support. Besides, with I5 and healthy bid, he basically is I5.5 so he's good enough. Whatever I6 that comes his way that his tricks can't shake off/get behind is what the rest of the squad is for. Indeed, the games I lose with him have nothing to do with the opponent bringing an I6, but more of me being a numbskull and engaging in greed for extra MOV in the tourney, be that when I've already won and run around or more commonly when it still is a tight game and engaging, thinking "oh, gateofstorms earlier told me that I'm going to reasonably take no more than 1 damage on this trade, with 2 or more damage being an unlikely 4-ish%....KABOOM! gg, lol, lesson never learned!"

Sorry to change the subject, but I think we ought to talk more about the munitions for Kylo, as those are vastly underrated. Besides, the ship itself is the merging of the fighter-bomber TIE Defender and the interceptor-fighter TIE Interceptor! They are highly situational, but all viable side-grades, adding to their intrigue and customization.

Torps:

Pro Torps: basically what Explosive Raptor said, although they compete heavily with Supernatural for both points and force charges to mod. The two are still compatible, but not optimal side by side. Still very potent for Instinctive Aim + optics/Hate Kylo all the same.

Adv. Pro Torps: more of a 6 pt control piece than a munition until you pop it on something that you are tailgating. Everybody wants to even exchange R1 shots on Kylo, but the opponent's forced care by these munitions makes it easier to dodge. They're like a portable Upsilon in terms of area denial! Great if your meta sees a lot of 2 agility aces. Sadly not Hyperspace Legal.

Ion Torps: I don't know if the extra die over Ion missiles are better than the extra charge those rockets provide. They're still good, but more tuned into that one shot you need to ion somebody. Good for ion-ing (and either allowing Kylo and his goons an easy r1 shot next turn or to escape easily) 3-agility ships that have only one mod or for keeping T70's in check.

Missiles:

Ion Missiles: More affordable than Ion Torps (unless you go ham and equip them both if you don't like large base ships and want to remind the Falcon it no longer has the 1 turn the hard way). These won't ion 3 agi and won't ion 2 agi as easily. However, the extra charge makes it easier to scatter low-I and low-agi grunts when you try to scurry for the point game. Sadly, against said low-I grunts, you may not get too many opportunities to fire these as you will often be running for the perfect engagement given all the enemy arcs.

Homing Missiles: Surprisingly good on this chassis. The auto-damage mechanic synergizes with a decent playstyle: chip shot and get a damage off what you typically shouldn't with a primary (keep the lock), get full mods whilst dodging next round, escape, repeat. If you don't mind the extra cost, the wombo-combo from this and Adv. Pro Torps (despite said torps' single charge) is real. They're also really fun against Fang Fighters, as inevitably just firing two of these off half-point them, and given your turnarounds and primed thrusters, if you snag that lock earlier, this does not become difficult even against most Fenn's. These typically see both charges used per game, and should be considered the default munition for Kylo until you know where and how you decide to optimize your build to a specific playstyle. Unfortunately, their usefulness caps off at 3 enemy ships, as with 4 or more, that extra damage you get isn't all that great against so much health to chew through. 

Proton Rockets: exactly what the Explosive Raptor earlier said. I've found that these are great for swarms, as simply by arc-dodging yet retaining your arc on them you are almost guaranteed to have bullseye on something. For the same reason, these are also good for the increasingly popular YT chassis (and if you equip Supernat and get your positions down to pat, a hard 2 towards the ship will allow you to react to whichever direct the arc is not pointed. Always, hence, the sad importance of the bid). You will have to be patient with them, as they are most effective when you have a lock from earlier if you are not using optics. Sadly, the Homing Missile dmg + retained mod strat does not synergize with it, given that they compete for the same slot! *But actually, that's a good thing, considering how the homing missiles have better synergy with Adv. Torps, as those torps require only the lock and are 1 pt. cheaper for the same number of dice, but get to convert a hit to a crit!*

Cluster Missiles: again, what the Explosive Raptor has stated. Even at range 1 of the target you have locked, given that you have at least 1 force charge, assuming that said target has 2 agi and no defensive mods or 1 agi regardless the mods (except Nora), then your damage output against the enemy list will be better than taking the range 1 primary. This is great against those Leia Y-wing gangs.

Concussion Missiles: I don't have the skills to make these useful as a Kylo main, so I can't comment much about them! You need to have pre-existing damage on the target to make it sing, or maybe FO will get a form of Tragedy Sim? Swarm Tactics from Midnight to an Upsilon to punch that damage? Or Swarm from a targeting sync Midnight to a friendly SF? (Neither looks good for a SNR Kylo). Maybe just be patient? All the same, the denial of the Range 3 bonus for the defender is pretty good.

Even if the Silencer gets a second rocket slot to reflect its status of bomber/interceptor/defender/what not, Barrage rockets will be underwhelming for it. 7 points for Range 3 bonus denial + conditional rerolls is underwhelming, considering just how good optics are when combined with force in Kylo's case or Fanatical in everyone else's.

Edited by player3010587

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18 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

My guess: Sensor Cluster is never coming back.

But I'd guess that FFG will eventually have a 2e version of Comm Relay.  It will allow you to spend a focus to turn a Blank to an Evade while defending.

Isn't that exactly what Sensor Cluster was? And yes, I'm willing to ditch even primed thrusters--or even SNR!!!--for that glorious ability!

swx54-sensor-cluster.png

Edited by player3010587

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30 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Whatever I6 that comes his way that his tricks can't shake off/get behind is what the rest of the squad is for.

I played two games vs. Wedge this weekend. First game, I took out Wedge first. That left me with QD and Kylo to run around as needed (opponent didn't do a good job of protecting Wedge). Second game against him came down to Wedge vs. Kylo. Kylo's dial won it for me. I did a hard one while stressed. He tried to K-turn around me, thinking I would bank or do the 5 straight to get away. So yeah, even at i5 his tricks and wingmates still make him very much viable.

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1 hour ago, player3010587 said:

Isn't that exactly what Sensor Cluster was? And yes, I'm willing to ditch even primed thrusters--or even SNR!!!--for that glorious ability!

swx54-sensor-cluster.png

That's the joke.

2e Advanced Optics is nothing like 1e Advanced Optics, but is exactly the same as 1e Weapons Guidance.

th?id=OIP.Cxu7yfNj68fMzwgMMQJSsgHaLc&pidswz18_advanced-optics_a3.pngswx67-advanced-optics.png

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3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

That's the joke.

2e Advanced Optics is nothing like 1e Advanced Optics, but is exactly the same as 1e Weapons Guidance.

th?id=OIP.Cxu7yfNj68fMzwgMMQJSsgHaLc&pidswz18_advanced-optics_a3.pngswx67-advanced-optics.png

That means we will get Threat Tracker back! (hopefully with a cost other than the lock spending). But if it does return, for sure it will be renamed "Comm Relay". Although never an optimal build, flying Kylo as a better Fenn Rau with Threat Tracker was funny (best greens are the ones you never have to roll!).

Edited by player3010587

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5 hours ago, player3010587 said:

Supernatural Advanced Sensors would be busted. You could reposition, snag a lock, and then red maneuver. 

You can already do that with Pattern Analyser, all for a 5 point discount over Advanced Sensors! 😂

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4 minutes ago, Deffly said:

You can already do that with Pattern Analyser, all for a 5 point discount over Advanced Sensors! 😂

I've done it, but it buffs you this turn in exchange for a nerf next turn. You can't Supernat the next turn off a Pattern Analyser move, meaning you now have only one initial trajectory for your dial. If you got Advanced Sensors, you could still take Primed Thrusters with no consequences. Now don't get me wrong, firing Torpedoes at a Fenn that over-shot me thanks to the silliness that is a 6 k-turn was loads of fun, but I ultimately hamstrung myself in that game by not taking the Primed Thrusters.

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23 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

I've done it, but it buffs you this turn in exchange for a nerf next turn. You can't Supernat the next turn off a Pattern Analyser move, meaning you now have only one initial trajectory for your dial. If you got Advanced Sensors, you could still take Primed Thrusters with no consequences. Now don't get me wrong, firing Torpedoes at a Fenn that over-shot me thanks to the silliness that is a 6 k-turn was loads of fun, but I ultimately hamstrung myself in that game by not taking the Primed Thrusters.

True, but then you would have a 119pt Kylo (131 with Protons from your example)!

Around 2/3rds of your list in one ship. Sure you have options out the Wazoo but as we have seen in 2.0: Kylo is very far from invincible.

The advantage of Advanced Sensors in 1.0 was you could do ANY two actions (with PTL) before you moved and be unstressed for the next turn, plus you had 1.0 Autothrusters and the title for a single reroll on offence or an 'Oh S@#t' button if you blanked out. Oh and they had to kill you to get any points.

In 2.0 it is greatly toned down and if you saw it on Silencers you would see a ship that is choosing to loose one of its strengths in 2.0: Autothrusters.

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33 minutes ago, Deffly said:

True, but then you would have a 119pt Kylo (131 with Protons from your example)!

Around 2/3rds of your list in one ship. Sure you have options out the Wazoo but as we have seen in 2.0: Kylo is very far from invincible.

The advantage of Advanced Sensors in 1.0 was you could do ANY two actions (with PTL) before you moved and be unstressed for the next turn, plus you had 1.0 Autothrusters and the title for a single reroll on offence or an 'Oh S@#t' button if you blanked out. Oh and they had to kill you to get any points.

In 2.0 it is greatly toned down and if you saw it on Silencers you would see a ship that is choosing to loose one of its strengths in 2.0: Autothrusters.

My -legal, of course- Kylo tourney lists that have at least a 75% win rate literally involve a Kylo that ranges from 109 pt to 120 pt. The stress from flying all those points in a fortress is so real that his subtitle should have been "Blackout". But if you kill enough stuff, then getting reduced to 54pt+ is not the end of the world, as you should still be well outpointing the remnants.

As for the missing Autothrusters, I rely on a lot of memorized probability presets from GateOfStorms or just get out when in doubt (and given the general decline in mobility, at least this part of Kylo's job has been made easier). I look forward to wave 3 with earnest for gas clouds (which might make Blackout a monster). In every game, I silently pretend that the obstacles I brought are gas clouds, and try to see how often I can make my defense rolls obstructed by them. Granted, if they actually were gas clouds, so many variables of the game would change to reflect that, but the proof of concept has been made: Kylo's silly mobility (especially now that he can repo both before and after his move, which 1st edition Kylo couldn't) make such that if he wants to fine-tune his defensive position to behind a specific obstacle, he can. The likelihood that your opponent would make sure to cover that hidehole with another arc is not all too high, considering how Kylo still has the choice of self-bumping, over-shooting, or dodging. But if an arc-master like Jasper Hills or Dallas Parker know where you want to be most, then I guess such points are moot, unfortunately.

 

-Edit- Also, this was the Kylo I flew in my example of Torp-ing Fenn from behind (in a game I ultimately lost to the better player). This was also before Pro-Torps and SNR got really expensive.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v5!s!236:74,206,136,-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

 

-Edit-Edit- Also, I'd like to point out that Tavson is not scary to grunt Upsilons or to beefy things that are the only shot that will out-init him. As such, drop your Snoke and throw on Optics + Perceptive copilot. It offers a lot of flexibility (either double focus and then reinforce on damage against grunts or reinforce and then double focus upon damage against stuff that out-init's him. Use the extra action from next damage to jam or mess around). And like Fanatical + Optics, it offers a high dps for just the focus action. Indeed, you have a 74% chance of 4 hits with just 2 foci on him, and if you fire at range 1, you have a 90% chance of 4 hits and a 63% chance of 5 hits! Now that's intimidating area denial significantly better than "Oh, his unmodded shots might get full string on me!" And as @pheaver said earlier, if your FO lists don't at least consider a Fanatical Optic Scorch, you're doing it wrong.

Edited by player3010587

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6 hours ago, player3010587 said:

SNIP

Good to hear someone is having good results with Kylo, he's been nowhere to be seen in the SOS or any major event that I've looked at (besides the bottom half of the table).

I find it hard to fit decent wingmen in when he's so expensive.

Not sure what you are talking about with your second edit, unless you are referring to different threads?

Edited by Deffly

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15 minutes ago, Deffly said:

Good to hear someone is having good results with Kylo, he's been nowhere to be seen in the SOS or any major event that I've looked at (besides the bottom half of the table).

I find it hard to fit decent wingmen in when he's so expensive.

Not sure what you are talking about with your second edit, unless you are referring to different threads?

I was referring to the Carolina Krayt thread, where Heaver posts on occasion. As to whether my lists could be considered successes, here in the Midwest USA, kit tourneys are only 10-20 some players (typically closer to 10), so this ultimately is only proof of concept and not any real results. When I take Kylo to my first big event of the year next month, I'll write a post about it. Hoping to at least make day 2!

Edited by player3010587

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2 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

I was referring to the Carolina Krayt thread, where Heaver posts on occasion. As to whether my lists could be considered successes, here in the Midwest USA, kit tourneys are only 10-20 some players (typically closer to 10), so this ultimately is only proof of concept and not any real results. When I take Kylo to my first big event of the year next month, I'll write a post about it. Hoping to at least make day 2!

Good Luck!

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1 hour ago, player3010587 said:

As to whether my lists could be considered successes, here in the Midwest USA, kit tourneys are only 10-20 some players (typically closer to 10), so this ultimately is only proof of concept and not any real results. When I take Kylo to my first big event of the year next month, I'll write a post about it. Hoping to at least make day 2!

My results at similar events have been almost entirely down to the initiative of the local meta. Low PS lists may as well not even setup and majority high PS lists with a better bid than me are long slogs ending in a close loss too often for me to feel Kylo is actually reliable enough against the field at a large event. Just like in 1.0

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Posted (edited)

Time to resurrect this thread because a Kylo vet (Phil Horny, Top 4 of Adepticon with his meta underdog as well as the winner of the last 1st ed. US system open) won big with Kylo again. The venue: Krayt Cup Top 50 Invitational. The list: a 2nd edition version of "Aces on High", whose 1st edition form Martyn Chivers won the largest X- Wing tourney ever (Birmingham system open);

• Null

• Quickdraw: Fanatical, FCS, Pattern Analyzer

• Kylo: SNR, Pattern Analyzer

I didn't make or field this variant, so I am oblivious to its nuances. I'm also not keen on picking it up as, despite initial success with Kylo QD Null, I dropped it after slumping to 2-3 at wave championship (scant mods open the door too far to RNG and 2 dice with no tricks don't deal damage. But I'm not the Top 50 winner!). But I will blabber anyway to try to spark discussion.

QD has 1.5 mods for 1st engage (fcs lock, so a reroll on the first shot and a lock on the second) which could become 2.5 (again, obviously not all at once) mods 2nd turn of engaging (keep lock and and focus). Fanatical is great for a somewhat lean QD, and nearly guarantees that a revenge shot has a calculate added to its mods (exception of course on stream). If you have a lock from last rounds but no shields, you can chump out with an evade for defense but have full mods on offense! (Bonus points for the epic dream of evading with a lock on target whilst wearing one shield when facing an I6+, such that the evade is for defense and BOTH shots get double mods). Can't stress how good PA is on QD. It turns your facing on the matter. It also throws Leia spammers for S-loops.

Kylo's PA has basically been covered before: neat for locks, can mimick PT at times. Phil obviously thought about all his moves and game states well, as willingly turning off SNR always paid off! Speaking of which, check the footage: very sparing (but clutch!) use of SNR. It's like bombs: the threat alone influences your opponent's play. But given how he flew Kylo mainly like a force user interceptor with health, I'd imagine that he'd be a great Carnor Jax pilot...if only *cries in more than 2 interceptor uniques*

Null's a pest. I7 is scary even if gateofstorms shows that you shouldn't be and I0 is a good blocker. If the opponent gets a bad case of tunnel vision on Kylo, you can attempt to make them pay. Only 1pt more than Wampa/Gideon/Seyn is great: trade a pilot ability for I7 and a shield is efficient.

Edited by player3010587

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