ATST and Airspeeder still extremely overcosted

[KommanderKeldoth 3,141]

1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

I don't think taking away the ability of vehicles to score Key Positions is going to do anything to help them.

Woops, didn't catch that

[thepopemobile100 977]

2 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Woops, didn't catch that

It's all good. We've all made mistakes.

[KommanderKeldoth 3,141]

Here's another crazy idea: what if in force organization rules you are limited to 8 units max?

That way the big expensive toys wont be swamped by a huge activation disparity.

That way you can still spam corps units, but not snipers at the same time.

[Derrault 1,091]

53 minutes ago, Qark said:

 

That isn't what was being said. The point is if you max corps units you can have 6 storm troopers with DLT. Against a T-47 each one has a 65.5% chance of dealing 1 damage without an aim or 80% chance with an aim. Thats 4-5 expected damage out of the corps units at range 4 while the storm troopers without the DLT are still dishing out suppression or damage to what little trooper squads you have. It doesn't take much to crit fish up the extra damage to drop the thing, or bombard with veers, or activate a speeder bike. A T-47 against a good player will drop in one round of shooting while the army still operates in a way that will cause it to score objectives.

That isn't even considering the crazy good threat range of snow troopers that move-move-impact grenade. 2 squads of those guys can shut down so much of the table that either the T-47 dies or doesn't contribute where it is needed.

Those trooper units won’t survive the incoming fire, and their output drops dramatically every time they’re fired on. In comparison they do virtually nothing to the T-47, and that’s when they mass fire.

Splitting fire is even more futile, as a Rebel trooper in cover and with dodge would negate the first three hits. 3 hits on 5 white surge dice is already long odds

Edited February 19, 2019 by Derrault

[thepopemobile100 977]

4 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Those trooper units won’t survive the incoming fire, and their output drops dramatically every time they’re fired on. In comparison they do virtually nothing to the T-47, and that’s when they mass fire.

Splitting fire is even more futile, as a Rebel trooper in cover and with dodge would negate the first three hits. 3 hits on 5 white surge dice is already long odds

T-47 will almost never kill a unit in one shot and has already been shown to semi reliably take damage from the DLT alone without an aim. They can do plenty to the T-47 with mass fire too and since you can't get back out of range with a move, you're going to take the remaining troops attack. Stop ignoring the math when it doesn't favor you.

Even if the attack didn't produce any damage, the target is still suppressed. You're also making the assumption that the either the rebel unit went first and took a dodge action or there is a commander near them that went and gave them a dodge. This is also ignoring the 5/8 chance of a crit showing up or that with an aim 5 normal storms average a crit a per attack. Since the DLT has likely resolved it's attack first, there is a decent chance that there will be an aim for the rest to use.

[Derrault 1,091]

3 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

T-47 will almost never kill a unit in one shot and has already been shown to semi reliably take damage from the DLT alone without an aim. They can do plenty to the T-47 with mass fire too and since you can't get back out of range with a move, you're going to take the remaining troops attack. Stop ignoring the math when it doesn't favor you.

Even if the attack didn't produce any damage, the target is still suppressed. You're also making the assumption that the either the rebel unit went first and took a dodge action or there is a commander near them that went and gave them a dodge. This is also ignoring the 5/8 chance of a crit showing up or that with an aim 5 normal storms average a crit a per attack. Since the DLT has likely resolved it's attack first, there is a decent chance that there will be an aim for the rest to use.

‘Semi reliably’ is my new favorite phrase for sometimes.

Again, doing massed fire on a T-47 takes those 6 actions, at least one of which is going to suffer significant damage from the 47 itself, and the rest of which are subject to damage from all the fresh units. The chances of actually firing full force (which again, on average will not kill the 47!) are nil.

If they hit the target is suppressed, with just white dice it’s likely they didn’t even get a hit result for most situations, and even if they did, rally (or if these are units with a higher courage, Pathfinders for example look like they pair great with the 47) negates the value for the round. It also ignores that both sides would target fresh units first, in part to supply suppression, making it unlikely that either side can effectuate both an aim and a fire.

[Qark 268]

24 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Those trooper units won’t survive the incoming fire, and their output drops dramatically every time they’re fired on. In comparison they do virtually nothing to the T-47, and that’s when they mass fire.

Splitting fire is even more futile, as a Rebel trooper in cover and with dodge would negate the first three hits. 3 hits on 5 white surge dice is already long odds

Lets break your comment down.

"Those trooper units won’t survive the incoming fire, and their output drops dramatically every time they’re fired on" well , they will. Lets assume the T-47 is flanking and the storms have no cover. Lets assume the T-47 has an aim token. That is best case scenario. On average T-47 kills 2.4 storm troopers. If the trooper squad is 4 + DLT then you need at least 4 kills to stop impact return fire. The probability of that is only 17.9%

"In comparison they do virtually nothing to the T-47, and that’s when they mass fire." well, they do. Reread the post you quoted. The maths is there. 5 damage isn't "virtually nothing." That's the damage threshold. Thats 5/7ths dead.

Already your argument falls apart because any player worth their salt would happily trade a 2 stormtroopers for a damaged T-47.

Splitting fire is even more futile, as a Rebel trooper in cover and with dodge would negate the first three hits. 3 hits on 5 white surge dice is already long odds. &  If they hit the target is suppressed, with just white dice it’s likely they didn’t even get a hit result for most situations. Well you might be right about damage here. 70% chance to not kill a dude isn't great, however, you are just plain wrong about gaining a suppression which is an 85% chance. Lets say you choose to shoot at un-activated units: you'll expect to be putting out 5 suppression tokens 3 units will only get one action when they activate and rebel troopers drop like flies without their dodges so now they have to choose between taking damage from your non-corps units, moving towards an objective, or returning fire.
 

[thepopemobile100 977]

11 minutes ago, Derrault said:

‘Semi reliably’ is my new favorite phrase for sometimes.

Again, doing massed fire on a T-47 takes those 6 actions, at least one of which is going to suffer significant damage from the 47 itself, and the rest of which are subject to damage from all the fresh units. The chances of actually firing full force (which again, on average will not kill the 47!) are nil.

If they hit the target is suppressed, with just white dice it’s likely they didn’t even get a hit result for most situations, and even if they did, rally (or if these are units with a higher courage, Pathfinders for example look like they pair great with the 47) negates the value for the round. It also ignores that both sides would target fresh units first, in part to supply suppression, making it unlikely that either side can effectuate both an aim and a fire.

Significant damage? That's cute considering that a full volley from the main gun of the 47 averages less than 2 damage after defense rolls and drops to less than 1 if behind heavy cover. The only unit that is unlikely to fire with all of their men still around is the one you just shot. With an aim the 47 averages almost 2 damage taken per attack which kills how long it stays around. That's not difficult to pull off either as the empire has quite a lot of ways to generate aim tokens. They can do even more damage if coordinated fire was played.

I'll scrap the rest of what I was going to say as Qark already covered it.

[thepopemobile100 977]

4 minutes ago, Qark said:

Lets say you choose to shoot at un-activated units: you'll expect to be putting out 5 suppression tokens 3 units will only get one action when they activate and rebel troopers drop like flies without their dodges so now they have to choose between taking damage from your non-corps units, moving towards an objective, or returning fire

I don't know where you're getting your 5 suppression tokens as an attack can only generate 1 token without suppressive and even then it'd only generate 2.

[Qark 268]

Wrong maths. See subsequent posts.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Qark

[Tokous 53]

1 hour ago, Qark said:

 

That isn't what was being said. The point is if you max corps units you can have 6 storm troopers with DLT. Against a T-47 each one has a 65.5% chance of dealing 1 damage without an aim or 80% chance with an aim. Thats 4-5 expected damage out of the corps units at range 4 while the storm troopers without the DLT are still dishing out suppression or damage to what little trooper squads you have. It doesn't take much to crit fish up the extra damage to drop the thing, or bombard with veers, or activate a speeder bike. A T-47 against a good player will drop in one round of shooting while the army still operates in a way that will cause it to score objectives.

That isn't even considering the crazy good threat range of snow troopers that move-move-impact grenade. 2 squads of those guys can shut down so much of the table that either the T-47 dies or doesn't contribute where it is needed.

Its more closer to 55% chance to do 0 damage, 35% chance to 1 damage, and rare to do 2.  White dice hardly hit, and red dice are vice versa. I'm just finding this so wildly exaggerated. Realistically even embellished.. I doubt any of the stormtroopers would roll a critical hit, and they can't hurt the T-47 with hits even if they actually did roll some. With that one unit, the DLT-19 doesn't have such a high chance to score 1 hit with or without an aim token, but should get one or two hits rolled...

Even with those one or two, well say two since one would be instantly a miss unless it was a critical hit since it has cover 1. With that one, impact has faster speed than armor, so you have one hit result but now the T-47 has a white defense die with defense surge to attempt to block. 2/4 Not the best of chances but still could pull it off. With it taking 6 corp units a round or two to take it down if not longer is a major waste and the opposite of this thing being garbage.

I know from going against it (I'm predominantly an Imperial gamer), it's certainly not immortal. I've got lucky pulling several critical hits and what not, the point is that isn't so easy or normal. A white die has 1/8 chance to roll a critical hit. Those two red dice from DLT-19 have 1/8 critical, 6/8 sides are hits which with Impact 1 only 1 changes to Critical hit. While the T-47 has 1/3rd chance to block that.

A T-47 being used by a good player will last and be way far beyond a threat than most realize. Just because people use it wrong doesn't mean it sucks. A novice rushes into battle with it, of course it will plummet out of the sky as a fire ball lol. That's like rushing a unit of Imperial Royal Guards full speed ahead of an open field towards snipers and troops with range 1-3. When they die almost always doing that, it is realistic to then state they are trash... it's the user, not the unit.

[thepopemobile100 977]

2 minutes ago, Tokous said:

Its more closer to 55% chance to do 0 damage, 35% chance to 1 damage, and rare to do 2.  White dice hardly hit, and red dice are vice versa. I'm just finding this so wildly exaggerated. Realistically even embellished.. I doubt any of the stormtroopers would roll a critical hit, and they can't hurt the T-47 with hits even if they actually did roll some. With that one unit, the DLT-19 doesn't have such a high chance to score 1 hit with or without an aim token, but should get one or two hits rolled...

Even with those one or two, well say two since one would be instantly a miss unless it was a critical hit since it has cover 1. With that one, impact has faster speed than armor, so you have one hit result but now the T-47 has a white defense die with defense surge to attempt to block. 2/4 Not the best of chances but still could pull it off. With it taking 6 corp units a round or two to take it down if not longer is a major waste and the opposite of this thing being garbage.

I know from going against it (I'm predominantly an Imperial gamer), it's certainly not immortal. I've got lucky pulling several critical hits and what not, the point is that isn't so easy or normal. A white die has 1/8 chance to roll a critical hit. Those two red dice from DLT-19 have 1/8 critical, 6/8 sides are hits which with Impact 1 only 1 changes to Critical hit. While the T-47 has 1/3rd chance to block that.

A T-47 being used by a good player will last and be way far beyond a threat than most realize. Just because people use it wrong doesn't mean it sucks. A novice rushes into battle with it, of course it will plummet out of the sky as a fire ball lol. That's like rushing a unit of Imperial Royal Guards full speed ahead of an open field towards snipers and troops with range 1-3. When they die almost always doing that, it is realistic to then state they are trash... it's the user, not the unit.

He's talking about the whole unit without the dlt at first. 5 whites have a 5/8 chance of rolling 1 crit without an aim and average 1 crit with one so he's not exaggerating. After defense dice roll it goes to 42% and 66% respectively to deal the damage. The dlt averages 1 damage through armor 75% of the time and deals it's damage alone 50% of the time by itself. Sure you're talking coin flips for damage but they tend to be favorable odds.

Damage done to the 47 with the full unit firing averages roughly 1.2 after defense saves without an aim and jump up to about 1.5ish with an aim. That's not half bad when the unit has 7 health. Average kill time is in the 4-5 attacks range when aiming with a full unit. With how big the 47 is, how fast it moves, and it's short range with lackluster results against imperial units, it tends to get shot from these kind of attacks fairly often. It can't fight infantry very well, but it fairs better against armor which would be great if the armored units the empire has currently wasn't the ATST exclusively.

As a rebel player exclusively my advice is to take 2 rotary gun RTs and save yourself the 5 points. They each do slightly less damage against targets in the open and take a little more damage since the don't have the surge, but they individually do more damage to targets in cover and it takes more to kill both of them than it does to kill the 47.

[Qark 268]

52 minutes ago, Tokous said:

Its more closer to 55% chance to do 0 damage, 35% chance to 1 damage, and rare to do 2.  White dice hardly hit, and red dice are vice versa. I'm just finding this so wildly exaggerated.

Not exaggerated, just forgot to click the surge for defense button on my probability calculator. Thanks for catching that. DLT 52% chance at hitting the T-47. 6 Attacks you expect 3 damage so two rounds of shooting to bring it down. You are still trading on average less than 1 squad of storms  for the air speeder.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Qark

[Qark 268]

A whole storm squad shooting with an aim at a T-47 averages 2.2 damage. So three corps squads focusing fire to kill a T-47. Ill take that.

[SirCormac 530]

Here are my proposed 'fixes' for Vader and the ATST (the T-47 is just so overcosted as to be hard to 'fix' with a simple 'fix')

Saber Throw: Add the text "When this card is equipped to a friendly Darth Vader unit, reduce its cost to 0"

ATST Main Gun: Add Pierce 1

ATST 88 Gun: Add Pierce 1 (That gun is very expensive for what it does).

These fixes could be done in an errata and don't 'technically' change the price of anything. Thoughts?

[Derrault 1,091]

4 hours ago, Qark said:

Lets break your comment down.

"Those trooper units won’t survive the incoming fire, and their output drops dramatically every time they’re fired on" well , they will. Lets assume the T-47 is flanking and the storms have no cover. Lets assume the T-47 has an aim token. That is best case scenario. On average T-47 kills 2.4 storm troopers. If the trooper squad is 4 + DLT then you need at least 4 kills to stop impact return fire. The probability of that is only 17.9%

"In comparison they do virtually nothing to the T-47, and that’s when they mass fire." well, they do. Reread the post you quoted. The maths is there. 5 damage isn't "virtually nothing." That's the damage threshold. Thats 5/7ths dead.

Already your argument falls apart because any player worth their salt would happily trade a 2 stormtroopers for a damaged T-47.

Splitting fire is even more futile, as a Rebel trooper in cover and with dodge would negate the first three hits. 3 hits on 5 white surge dice is already long odds. &  If they hit the target is suppressed, with just white dice it’s likely they didn’t even get a hit result for most situations. Well you might be right about damage here. 70% chance to not kill a dude isn't great, however, you are just plain wrong about gaining a suppression which is an 85% chance. Lets say you choose to shoot at un-activated units: you'll expect to be putting out 5 suppression tokens 3 units will only get one action when they activate and rebel troopers drop like flies without their dodges so now they have to choose between taking damage from your non-corps units, moving towards an objective, or returning fire.
 

That’s assuming 6 totally fresh stormtrooper units fired; it’s safe to assume the Rebel player fires the T-47 at one that hasn’t fired (so, extremely likely there’s a suppression token there, and wounds), then the Rebel gets to activate a unit after/before every stormtrooper squad.

If the Stormtroopers are firing on the 47 they’re expending the most possible dice they have for the game, only to inflict ~1 wound. In return, they’re suffering fire from, let’s say Rebel troopers, taking an average of 2 wounds per Rebel attack (which of course reduces their output by .75 each)

That’s what I mean by them having hardly any effect. The Stormtroopers deal some damage to the 47, sure, but they haven’t reduced the output of the Rebels by doing so. Conversely, the Rebel damage is directly attriting Imperial firepower for this and future remaining rounds.

[DarkTrooperZero 304]

6 hours ago, Derrault said:

Those trooper units won’t survive the incoming fire, and their output drops dramatically every time they’re fired on. In comparison they do virtually nothing to the T-47, and that’s when they mass fire.

 

Dude do you even maths? it's been Very clear for a long time the T47 doesn't kill many storm troopers for its points and in comparison isn't that hard to shoot down.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

19 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

Can we all stop using "costed" when the correct word is "priced"?  It is getting really obnoxious seeing it in thread after thread...

Verbing words really weirds our language.

 

20 hours ago, Tirion said:

Power gamers can be the best thing for a game and there worst thing for a game

Well you always want one or two in the wargames group to keep it from devolving too far the other way. As long as they are in a distinct minority the downsides to powergamers gets balanced out.

No such balance exists in modern tournament circuits.

[thepopemobile100 977]

7 hours ago, Derrault said:

That’s assuming 6 totally fresh stormtrooper units fired; it’s safe to assume the Rebel player fires the T-47 at one that hasn’t fired (so, extremely likely there’s a suppression token there, and wounds), then the Rebel gets to activate a unit after/before every stormtrooper squad.

If the Stormtroopers are firing on the 47 they’re expending the most possible dice they have for the game, only to inflict ~1 wound. In return, they’re suffering fire from, let’s say Rebel troopers, taking an average of 2 wounds per Rebel attack (which of course reduces their output by .75 each)

That’s what I mean by them having hardly any effect. The Stormtroopers deal some damage to the 47, sure, but they haven’t reduced the output of the Rebels by doing so. Conversely, the Rebel damage is directly attriting Imperial firepower for this and future remaining rounds.

You're assuming that all rebel troops are in range to fire as well despite their low speed in comparision to the 47 and same attack range. You're also assuming that all the stormtroopers are in range to fire at the 47. The most likely case is that you can't bring much of either to bear down on the speeder and the only way the rebel player is able to keep his corp up with the speeder is if the speeder has been flying around a couple of turns doing nothing.

Even if you are taking two troops off of each stormtrooper squad in a volley, 3+dlt with no aim still does at least one damage after defense the 72% of the time or two damage 17% of the time. Great odds to do one damage and a more than insignificant chance to do 2 damage after defense. Your rebel troops who have been shooting haven't done much to keep the 47 alive. God forbid full units with an aim take shots against it as it won't last the end of the round.

Your 47 has had hardly any effect. It doesn't do great against troopers by comparison to every rebel unit with the exception of the RT laser cannon. If you haven't rushed it in then a quarter of your army hasn't done squat for half the game, then what? It does on average over 3 turns 5.625 kills on stormtroopers who have no dodge or cover. Its a slightly reliable coin flip to kill a single squad of stormtroopers assuming that there isn't a medic around. The 47 is the reason that people started saying you can ignore heavies, because it does laughably low damage. Heck, you could throw on the buzzer and get a couple of extra minis, but you definitely aren't aiming anymore.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

Damage output is a tricky thing to fully calculate in Legion what with the nature of suppression. I think this has contributed to some of the issue. The T-47 might do ok careening around handing out suppression tokens to everything so that your infantry can safely advance, than actually trying to destroy units. I'll have to paint a bunch more rebels and try it.

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by TauntaunScout

[thepopemobile100 977]

48 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Damage output is a tricky thing to fully calculate in Legion what with the nature of suppression. I think this has contributed to some of the issue. The T-47 might do ok careening around handing out suppression tokens to everything so that your infantry can safely advance, than actually trying to destroy units. I'll have to paint a bunch more rebels and try it.

 

You'll have to post pictures once you're finished painting. So long as you're having fun, it doesn't really matter how it performs.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

39 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

You'll have to post pictures once you're finished painting. So long as you're having fun, it doesn't really matter how it performs.

Yeah I will. I listed almost all of my faux-Hoth rebels on eBay (just keeping two squads of corps). I am going to paint a core set's worth of them in "movie colors", ie Endor troops and Bespin Luke.

I'll probably then paint a core-set-minus-Luke in custom desert colors. It's actually just a yellow, brown, and white uniform that will happen to look very deserty.

I might paint a 3rd RT in faux-Hoth but leaning towards not because 3 Atgars would take up the same slot and are "real" snow models. Then again a snowy RT kinda looks like the pilot is wearing urban camo so what's the harm?

My Hoth/snowy rebel collection will have 2 speeders, 3 Atgars, Chewie, and some wookies. You know: every single force org slot except the required ones. Thanks FFG 😕

[Winged Gundark 21]

The airspeeder aside.  I think the AT-ST has a little more merit.  I haven't been playing in high end tournaments but in my local scene I've had it fairly consistently delete units of rebels and less consistently Stormtroopers.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

28 minutes ago, Winged Gundark said:

The airspeeder aside.  I think the AT-ST has a little more merit.  I haven't been playing in high end tournaments but in my local scene I've had it fairly consistently delete units of rebels and less consistently Stormtroopers.

I always find the AT-ST worthwhile. Once I fine-tuned the upgrades to fit my playstyle and not the other way around, that is. I take one extra weapon, fire both of them at one unit at a time, with a preference to whatever target is easiest to destroy. Meanwhile I use it to set off landmines and otherwise protect my troops.

[KommanderKeldoth 3,141]

Yeah I don't know why people keep lumping the AT-ST into the same category as the airspeeder.  The air speeder definitely needs some help.  The AT-ST just wants a little nudge.  The new pilot that gives Tactical will probably be all it needs.

Groupthink is powerful on these forums