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Why do people hate Jedi?

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6 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

I wonder if age has something to do with it?

It's not a bad point.

With some of the older crowd that dislike the idea of Jedi as PCs, it's probably due to a lot of mystique being taken away, and with it many of their preconceived notions of what the older Jedi were; prior to the prequels a lot of fans had the idea that Old Ben as we met him in ANH was the archetypal Jedi Knight, while the prequels revealed that while Obi-Wan was a model Jedi Knight, the template for what a model Jedi Knight was turned out to be rather different than what those people who entered Star Wars via the original films when they were young kids had in mind.  To some of those old guard, being a Jedi meant being something of a swashbuckling hero, dashing into adventure and seeking out danger (in spite Yoda saying those were things a Jedi shouldn't be doing).  Given how much Star Wars owes to the Flash Gordon style serials of the 50's, that's not really all that surprising.

For younger fans that entered the fandom via the prequels, there was never a doubt about what a Jedi was supposed to be.  Were the Jedi of the prequel films perfect?  Not at all, which was kind of the point, that they weren't infallible, that even the best of them had flaws.  But they were still generally heroic figures that those younger views could look up to, and feel a true sense of sadness at seeing Anakin succumb to his personal flaws and embrace the darkness, even more so if you watched Clone Wars where they could take the time to delve into Anakin's per-destined fall to the dark side and the steps along the way that lead him to that path.  The prequel films fleshed out what the Jedi Order of old was, even as the New Jedi Order and Legacy eras of Legends had Luke gradually redefine what it meant to be a Jedi (at first due to nobody really having any information, and then later as we learned more and Luke tried to take the best of the old while blending in new concepts, with mixed results).

I've also seen the opposite, with older fans being very much in favor of Jedi (both in general and as PCs) as they've been defined by the prequels, and the younger fans looking down their noses at the "snooty space wizards" with the codes of conduct and what you can and can't do.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

It's not a bad point.

With some of the older crowd that dislike the idea of Jedi as PCs, it's probably due to a lot of mystique being taken away, and with it many of their preconceived notions of what the older Jedi were; prior to the prequels a lot of fans had the idea that Old Ben as we met him in ANH was the archetypal Jedi Knight, while the prequels revealed that while Obi-Wan was a model Jedi Knight, the template for what a model Jedi Knight was turned out to be rather different than what those people who entered Star Wars via the original films when they were young kids had in mind.  To some of those old guard, being a Jedi meant being something of a swashbuckling hero, dashing into adventure and seeking out danger (in spite Yoda saying those were things a Jedi shouldn't be doing).  Given how much Star Wars owes to the Flash Gordon style serials of the 50's, that's not really all that surprising.

For younger fans that entered the fandom via the prequels, there was never a doubt about what a Jedi was supposed to be.  Were the Jedi of the prequel films perfect?  Not at all, which was kind of the point, that they weren't infallible, that even the best of them had flaws.  But they were still generally heroic figures that those younger views could look up to, and feel a true sense of sadness at seeing Anakin succumb to his personal flaws and embrace the darkness, even more so if you watched Clone Wars where they could take the time to delve into Anakin's per-destined fall to the dark side and the steps along the way that lead him to that path.  The prequel films fleshed out what the Jedi Order of old was, even as the New Jedi Order and Legacy eras of Legends had Luke gradually redefine what it meant to be a Jedi (at first due to nobody really having any information, and then later as we learned more and Luke tried to take the best of the old while blending in new concepts, with mixed results).

I've also seen the opposite, with older fans being very much in favor of Jedi (both in general and as PCs) as they've been defined by the prequels, and the younger fans looking down their noses at the "snooty space wizards" with the codes of conduct and what you can and can't do.

Honestly one of the things this points out to me is my preference for playing 2 different types of jedi character's one is the noble paladin type, but is not some unfeeling monk that abstains from happiness. For those that play 5e paladin's think the oath of the ancients in many ways combined with some of the most basics of the jedi code (there is no ignorance, there is knowledge ect.) and the other type is NOT a jedi but instead a Force User ASPIRING to be a jedi. Which is pretty perfect for the rebellion era time line and the way force users are done in this game also really solid for this game. Even the stories we see in star wars (the swashbuckling hero) is of the people striving to be jedi rather than those that are already jedi. The people that are already Jedi are the teachers trying to show the new guys the right path, while the hero characters are the reckless ones striving to be better, often times they think that means being stronger and more powerful (the darkside's temptation), but it often actually means having a greater strength of character. I think those that have an aversion to jedi (but not force users) may benefit from playing this second kind of character. This character is not bound by any code other than trying to be a good person. As they adventure they find that is a lot harder than they think and every action has a consequence. The aspiring jedi to me is one of the most fun characters to play, because they can often be so flawed and having a PLANNED arc for the character as they slowly overcome their flaws is just so much fun to play.

Edited by tunewalker

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On 5/6/2019 at 1:16 PM, kmanweiss said:

I wonder if age has something to do with it?

I'd be curious of the pro-jedi vs the anti-jedi ages.  There are a considerable amount of things that are hated or adored by star wars fans based on their age.  People under the age of 45 like ewoks.  People over 45 hate ewoks.  People over the age of 35 hate the prequels, people under the age of 35 like the prequels.  You can find some people that don't mind, or even like Jar Jar and gungans if they are under 25 years old.  Clearly these are generalizations and don't apply to everyone. 

Jedi from the OT was a nebulous concept.  There were no rules, no formal concepts, no dress codes, no council, no official hair styles, no space pear etiquette, no rules about love, etc.  Being a Jedi seemed awesome, awe inspiring, exotic, interesting, mysterious.  The concept seemed like a chaotic good vs chaotic evil sort of thing.

The Jedi from the PT became something different.  They were very cult like.  Rules abound, dress codes and bad hair styles for everyone.  Child abduction and strict rules about relationships.  An ineffective, and easily manipulated, council that couldn't identify evil if it was sitting across the table from them.  They couldn't be bothered to actually do anything useful (ending slavery, stopping drug trade, quelling civil unrest, investigating or questioning surprise armies, advocating for people that no longer felt like they were represented by the Republic), but had no problem becoming generals in an army and waging war against people that simply wanted fair government before being co-opted by corporations and the Sith.  The concept seemed more like a lawful nuetral organization that claimed to be lawful good.

They idea of Jedi changed from mysterious, magical soldiers for good to cult like fanatics bogged down with ineffective internal bureaucracy.  Sure, they both had cool laser swords and 'magic' powers, but that's about it for similarities.

In SWTOR, you could pretty much predict a player's pick of jedi vs non-jedi class based on age.  Things were more nebulous on the dark side however.

I think you are right. I am an old guy who grew up with OT and kind of abstained from a lot of the material that came out after that, so that in the end I maintained a pristine view despite being into RPGs (I played D&D but not the WEG game and not even much with the d20 version). I also agree with what you said about the view of the Jedi as a sort of nebulous, and to me therefore more interesting, concept. Several of the players in my current group are young and grew up with the prequels and I can see what you are talking about. I heavily cherry pick the Prequel content and try to tailor it to fit the feel of the OT, but a lot of it I have to just chuck. I feel like George was high on himself and acting like a beginning writer who can't understand that just because you think of an idea, it doesn't mean that by virtue of being from your head it must be great. 

The Prequel handling of Jedi is dumb to me for all the reasons you listed plus:

  • There are too many of them (the Jedi). Because there are so many of them to get rid of, they have to be bug-zapped en masse. Proto stormtroopers pull a "Hey is that Elvis?!" so that they can effortlessly cut down the Jedi who all have a vigilance of 1 green with 4 setbacks and 6 Dark Destiny Points. Extermination by surprise firing squad. Not only did the massive population of Jedi have to die, they had to die really fast and completely in one swoop, so that Palpatine could be firmly in charge in the run time of the movie. George threw in a cool name: Order 66. Six thousandths of an order away from summoning the devil himself. It was a magic spell to make the Jedi vanish and solve a story problem he created by having enough Jedi around to populate a planet by themselves. 
  • Ben says Vader helped hunt them down and kill the Jedi Knights, so they give him a mostly off-screen rampage at the Jedi temple to make it seem like that happened, but it's off screen so the Force Engorged fans envision Vader force choking dozens of Jedi as he brings a star cruiser down on them from orbit and did a saber toss that would make Yondu's arrow jealous while the Clones watch. Others might suppose he just went to the nursery while the badass clones threw thermal detonators into meditation rooms. Either way they die like idiots at the temple and beyond, and Vader didn't do the cool hunting expedition I had always envisioned as a kid. (I know they did this in recent comics)
  • The Jedi seem really very dim in many ways. I think their fire had burned out a while before the prequels. Like the old line, these guys are either very smart or very dumb lol. Seemingly paralyzed by such awesome wisdom that put them back at the beginning in a state of ignorance. Of course this is mainly just bad writing by George to tee them up for destruction. A total destruction that seems to have been followed up by the clones using the flashy thing from MiB to wipe everyone's memory of 20,000 years of Jedi. 
  • The Force is over-explained by the Prequels with midichloriens, vergences, and immaculate conceptions. Later the cartoons and TLJ go storyline bankrupt and just decide it's just full on D&D magic, resorting to time travel, Force wormholes, and magic animals. I imagine at some point we will meet the Force Gods who live in Forcehalla and learn of the 9 Rings of Force Power forged by the Dark Lord which he needs to get back so that he can make the Force Infinity Glove and his magic Force Mirror before the Force Giants can claim his Force Force.   

 

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Posted (edited)

If I have a 'problem player' there is a 9/10 chance that person is either going to want to play a Jedi (regardless of era), a Mandalorian or even worse, both. The former will usually then complain F&D is a bad book because it doesn't let them "be as powerful as the Jedi in the films." 

I don't have an issue with them in the lore.

Edited by Arbitrator

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1 hour ago, Arbitrator said:

If I have a 'problem player' there is a 9/10 chance that person is either going to want to play a Jedi (regardless of era), a Mandalorian or even worse, both. The former will usually then complain F&D is a bad book because it doesn't let them "be as powerful as the Jedi in the films." 

I don't have an issue with them in the lore.

He needs to understand that he is not the only character in the game. The game is designed around everyone being of similar power levels and all PC's are important. Jedi are not inherently more powerful nor are mandalorians inherently better fighters then everyone else. Also he needs to know that the Force and Destiny characters ARE NOT jedi they are Force users that can strive to become jedi. For a full on "jedi" character it is going to take him a couple hundred Xp. If you are start "knight level play" you are probably at around padawan level. Still movie Jedi aren't really all that powerful for the most part, at least not knights..... I mean just look at this guy taken down by a blaster pistol. He had a good force jump though, so Enhance force power + range maybe.
 

 

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On 5/8/2019 at 6:08 AM, Archlyte said:

 I imagine at some point we will meet the Force Gods who live in Forcehalla and learn of the 9 Rings of Force Power forged by the Dark Lord which he needs to get back so that he can make the Force Infinity Glove and his magic Force Mirror before the Force Giants can claim his Force Force.   

 

They kind of already did that in Clone Wars actually.  It was the episode that made me stop watching it actually.   The introduced this Trinity of Balance type thingy.  These 3 beings that, I'm generalizing heavily here as I barely remember it, but they were basically living in this like Force Uber Nexus thingy, and they lived there to embody the Force, it's Light/Dark, and balance.  Well one of the 3 avatars was dying, or going crazy or whatever, basically they needed to replace a cog in the system, and Anakin was the one destined to do that.  They actually tried to retcon him giving up all ties to the galaxy, to go sit in that place for thousands of years, as his destiny "to bring balance to the Force".  Because if he didn't do it, there would be an imbalance.  He refused of course, and that's what caused all the problems.   

 

It was stupid to the Nth degree, but yeah, they were basically Force Gods, for all intents and purposes, and presentation.  :P 

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26 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

They kind of already did that in Clone Wars actually.  It was the episode that made me stop watching it actually.   The introduced this Trinity of Balance type thingy.  These 3 beings that, I'm generalizing heavily here as I barely remember it, but they were basically living in this like Force Uber Nexus thingy, and they lived there to embody the Force, it's Light/Dark, and balance.  Well one of the 3 avatars was dying, or going crazy or whatever, basically they needed to replace a cog in the system, and Anakin was the one destined to do that.  They actually tried to retcon him giving up all ties to the galaxy, to go sit in that place for thousands of years, as his destiny "to bring balance to the Force".  Because if he didn't do it, there would be an imbalance.  He refused of course, and that's what caused all the problems.   

 

It was stupid to the Nth degree, but yeah, they were basically Force Gods, for all intents and purposes, and presentation.  :P 

Yeah I think they decided they could just go with myth creation because of George talking about Campbell. Would be like me trying to build a Porsche 911 because I watched a show on Ferdinand Porsche. They are creating sparks in a bowl instead of lightning in a bottle. 

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51 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Yeah I think they decided they could just go with myth creation because of George talking about Campbell. Would be like me trying to build a Porsche 911 because I watched a show on Ferdinand Porsche. They are creating sparks in a bowl instead of lightning in a bottle. 

I think they did it to try and come up with an actual thing for Anakin to fail, so that his prophecy about "bringing balance to the Force" doesn't require him to murder children, hunt down refugee Force users, and plunge the galaxy into darkness for decades in a river of blood, to "balance" things.   That those outcomes are the ramifications of him denying his Destiny, to try and make him still be a bit more empathetic to the audience while watching the show?  *shrugs* I honestly don't know for certain, but that's always been my theory.  Given the prevailing fan theory that his destiny was apparently to kill Force users down to just 1, and thus balance things out, basically implies that the Force is just fine with large scale genocide and murder, it doesn't paint things in as pretty a light as the writers might want.   So it's basically "No, this is the Bad Ending reality, because Anakin said no to his Destiny as a Force God Thingy"  

Again, no idea for certain, that's just my take after watching the episode.  That's what it felt like to me, based on what they say to him when he turns them down. 

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2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I think they did it to try and come up with an actual thing for Anakin to fail, so that his prophecy about "bringing balance to the Force" doesn't require him to murder children, hunt down refugee Force users, and plunge the galaxy into darkness for decades in a river of blood, to "balance" things.   That those outcomes are the ramifications of him denying his Destiny, to try and make him still be a bit more empathetic to the audience while watching the show?  *shrugs* I honestly don't know for certain, but that's always been my theory.  Given the prevailing fan theory that his destiny was apparently to kill Force users down to just 1, and thus balance things out, basically implies that the Force is just fine with large scale genocide and murder, it doesn't paint things in as pretty a light as the writers might want.   So it's basically "No, this is the Bad Ending reality, because Anakin said no to his Destiny as a Force God Thingy"  

Again, no idea for certain, that's just my take after watching the episode.  That's what it felt like to me, based on what they say to him when he turns them down. 

Yeah I think you are right and they couldn't square having the hero of their cartoon show being a horrible kid killer. Also all of this idea of just having one Force user left really seems unlikely to me given the sheer size of the galaxy and how many worlds it contains that are not even known. 

Also they way overwrote the Anakin character and made him so potentially powerful that he became less interesting. The Force chose this terrible vessel for its power and it's obvious this was all just glopping stuff on to the most recognized character in the IP so they could pad out a series around him. If there is one thing that nerds can't grasp it's the concept of moderation. Anakin could not have been strong in the Force and have human reasons for being what he was, he had to be space Jesus with a Dark Destiny. Odysseus with a heroin overdose. 

That whole immaculate conception thing is awful too, it's like one of George's bad jokes he tells to people and they laugh even though the joke is lame. I have a hard time with the idea of the Force being this deterministic thing that has to manufacture the galaxy's biggest loser in order to set up for the second coming of Rey? I prefer that the "will of the Force" not be an actual consciousness but the description of how the mysterious Force sometimes reacts to things. 

To relate this to the thread I also think this stuff seems to have less to do with Jedi and more to do with bad creative decisions. The Force being portrayed in such a way casts doubt on their disciples for me so I don't think of the Force as it was portrayed in the EU, the Prequels, and the Cartoons. 

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17 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Also they way overwrote the Anakin character and made him so potentially powerful that he became less interesting. The Force chose this terrible vessel for its power and it's obvious this was all just glopping stuff on to the most recognized character in the IP so they could pad out a series around him. If there is one thing that nerds can't grasp it's the concept of moderation. Anakin could not have been strong in the Force and have human reasons for being what he was, he had to be space Jesus with a Dark Destiny. Odysseus with a heroin overdose. 

To be fair to those nerds, they didn't write him as Evil Space Jesus, George did that :P   It's the subsequent Destiny that was introduced by George, that I think they were trying to reverse engineer into something that seemed less, homicidal.  Because the idea of "Well yeah, I mean he murdered thousands by his own hand, killed scores of children, and plunged the galaxy into darkness and chaos for generations....but in the end he killed the Emperor, so it's All As the Force Has Willed It!   He did a Good Thing....with all that.....murdering...and torture...and betrayal....how is this a good thing again!?"    That's the kind of logic that does things like say "Well Hitler really did a good thing with that Holocaust thingy, because it meant that the surviving people were able to found their own country, and become strong!   So thanks Hitler!"   Or people who try and tell victims of abuse that it's ok, because it's all there for them to learn some lesson from and grow stronger,   Kind of insane, backwards thinking, but if you step back and actually look at the events of the OT, when seen through the lens of the PT prophecy for Anakin, that kind of is how it plays out.  Like all that death and pain was a good thing.  Which is crap of course, but that's what happens sometimes when writing stuff, and using mystic mumbo jumbo language.  The fine print makes things messy as heck.

 

So yeah, to me, that's why, I think, they introduced this other thing, that was actually a Good Thing, for him to be Destined to Do and Bring Balance, and then fail to do.   Because it makes the Force look a lot less like the badguy when the big picture is considered.

Then again, maybe it's just more really bad writing, which is pretty typical for the Star Wars franchise, no matter where you look at it.

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9 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

To be fair to those nerds, they didn't write him as Evil Space Jesus, George did that :P   It's the subsequent Destiny that was introduced by George, that I think they were trying to reverse engineer into something that seemed less, homicidal.  Because the idea of "Well yeah, I mean he murdered thousands by his own hand, killed scores of children, and plunged the galaxy into darkness and chaos for generations....but in the end he killed the Emperor, so it's All As the Force Has Willed It!   He did a Good Thing....with all that.....murdering...and torture...and betrayal....how is this a good thing again!?"    That's the kind of logic that does things like say "Well Hitler really did a good thing with that Holocaust thingy, because it meant that the surviving people were able to found their own country, and become strong!   So thanks Hitler!"   Or people who try and tell victims of abuse that it's ok, because it's all there for them to learn some lesson from and grow stronger,   Kind of insane, backwards thinking, but if you step back and actually look at the events of the OT, when seen through the lens of the PT prophecy for Anakin, that kind of is how it plays out.  Like all that death and pain was a good thing.  Which is crap of course, but that's what happens sometimes when writing stuff, and using mystic mumbo jumbo language.  The fine print makes things messy as heck.

 

So yeah, to me, that's why, I think, they introduced this other thing, that was actually a Good Thing, for him to be Destined to Do and Bring Balance, and then fail to do.   Because it makes the Force look a lot less like the badguy when the big picture is considered.

Then again, maybe it's just more really bad writing, which is pretty typical for the Star Wars franchise, no matter where you look at it.

Great points KFF. Also I should say that I consider myself a nerd of course :) But again I think you summed this up nicely. 

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Seems a lot of folks on here are forgetting how much of a role George played in making The Clone Wars, particularly the Mortis arc. The Clone Wars was all made prior to Disney stepping in, and a lot of the creative decisions were his ideas.

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4 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

Seems a lot of folks on here are forgetting how much of a role George played in making The Clone Wars, particularly the Mortis arc. The Clone Wars was all made prior to Disney stepping in, and a lot of the creative decisions were his ideas.

Then George tried to walk back his "destiny" idea, and did it badly.  After you said that I do recall hearing that previously, but forgot it.  Ultimately it doesn't really matter who came up with it.  If it's from the original source, it's even dumber really, because it's a terrible plot idea, from any angle.   

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5 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

Seems a lot of folks on here are forgetting how much of a role George played in making The Clone Wars, particularly the Mortis arc. The Clone Wars was all made prior to Disney stepping in, and a lot of the creative decisions were his ideas.

Honestly, a lot of what George has tried to do in regards to Anakin's destiny feels like he's trying to retroactively create a mythology in the vein of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.  Main difference being that (apart from the Hobbit) the good professor started out with the idea of creating a mythology (more specifically, an English-based one) from the ground up, where Lucas simply created a story and was hurriedly back-filling to make the story seem broader than it really is.

Don't get me wrong, Lucas has shown he's an amazing idea guy, it's just that his ideas need to be filtered through at least a few other people.  You saw that with the originals (major kudos for his then-wife's work in the editing room) and how the prequels had a lot of good ideas but not-so-great execution as nobody was really willing to say no to the man.  Raiders of the Lost Ark is another prime example of how Lucas' ideas were made into a great film by a combination of Spielberg and Ford filtering those ideas into something truly memorable that still holds up even after all these years.

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20 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

They kind of already did that in Clone Wars actually.  It was the episode that made me stop watching it actually.   The introduced this Trinity of Balance type thingy.  These 3 beings that, I'm generalizing heavily here as I barely remember it, but they were basically living in this like Force Uber Nexus thingy, and they lived there to embody the Force, it's Light/Dark, and balance.  Well one of the 3 avatars was dying, or going crazy or whatever, basically they needed to replace a cog in the system, and Anakin was the one destined to do that.  They actually tried to retcon him giving up all ties to the galaxy, to go sit in that place for thousands of years, as his destiny "to bring balance to the Force".  Because if he didn't do it, there would be an imbalance.  He refused of course, and that's what caused all the problems.   

 

It was stupid to the Nth degree, but yeah, they were basically Force Gods, for all intents and purposes, and presentation.  :P 

I refer to these as the fever dream episodes.  The main characters were all dosed with some alien chemical that induced a high fever accompanied by group hallucinations.  None of it really happened, they were found, and treated in a medical facility.  Everyone around them figured they knew what was going on so never explained it.  Since they never talk about it with anyone else, no one is alerted to the fact that they think it was real.  And when I watch the show with my kids, I skip those.

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1 hour ago, kmanweiss said:

I refer to these as the fever dream episodes.  The main characters were all dosed with some alien chemical that induced a high fever accompanied by group hallucinations.  None of it really happened, they were found, and treated in a medical facility.  Everyone around them figured they knew what was going on so never explained it.  Since they never talk about it with anyone else, no one is alerted to the fact that they think it was real.  And when I watch the show with my kids, I skip those.

Hehe, wow, yeah, they basically do qualify as Big Lipped Alligator Moments, now that you mention it.  That would make more sense than what is actually presented, which is sad.

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