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Sincereagape

Why do people hate Jedi?

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I encounter it very often. 

Players and friends who hate Jedi. 

A friend back in VA mentions celebrating clone troopers because they shot Jedi in the back in Order 66. 

A new perspective player for my new table top game. “Yea. I like playing man-T-arms Jedi killing super soldier.”

My old table from 2018, in the current game the two altruistic padwan force users are not revealing the location of the Warden holocron from Lure of the Lost to prevent the fallen Jedi  Rav Naaran from locating it. The older players comprised of a sharpshooter, ace pilot, medic, and sabeotour are pissed at them. The sharpshooter player even before hand stated “I hate force users. I hate Jedi.”

I don’t get it. Why the hate for force users?  Why the hate for Jedi?

is it the “Jon Cena” affect?  Do they always win?  Are they the focus of every story?  Are they to powerful?

Personally, I play non force users ;except for a blaster Jedi idea) because I have always enjoyed playing ‘gimped characters’ and enjoy non force users overall in Star Wars. 

 

Feel free to discuss. I’m curious as to why people and fans hate Jedi/force users. 

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This may not be the right forum for this discussion, as you can reasonably expect multiple Force users in a proper Force and Destiny campaign and there should be a general sense of acceptance towards Force-related content (otherwise, you might wanna reconsider which system to use).
With that out of the way:

I've yet to play with someone who can pull off a Force-sensitive character in a non-FaD game. They've either incorporated so much established source material into their backstory that it became impossible for the GM to veer away from said material ("I am *insert Jedi Master from the movies*'s  Padawan!", "I used to be one of Revan's generals", etc....), created utterly one-dimensional characters (one of the Lightsaber style specs and a 5 in the associated characteristic, mostly) without any interest in doing things that do not actively involve the one or two things they're good at, or chose to be chaotic stupid (or "dark side", as they called it) and actively undermine any semblance of coherent storytelling.

I think (hope?) that this is just incidental and unlucky on my part, but I can't help a sense of impending doom about new players with Force-sensitive PCs because of that. Maybe I'm not alone with this, and maybe the one I'm playing with right now will change my perspective.

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I tend to steer clear of them outside a force focused game for a few reasons, but not for a dislike of them.  

First there are supposed to be hundreds if not thousands of non-force sensitive beings for every force sensitive and I’d rather do their stories.  Doubly so when I’m running a game during the Rebellion.  Add in all the lore and worlds in the expanded universe it seems a shame to get hung up on just the stuff surrounding the force.  

 Also like EpicTed finding a player who can play the role well in a non force focused game is rare. Though my problem is less the background and more “every problem is a nail to my force centered hammer”. 

Edited by Hchar

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I don't find them terribly compelling characters, they and Sith to me are caricatures of the battle between good and evil.  Han Solo's and Lando's of the world are more interesting to me.

Beyond that it's a shift in pop culture in general.  Consumers want things dark, edgy, anti hero, conflicted, grim, etc.  There isn't the good guys and bad guys anymore.

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The other major issue is that, while FFG's implementation makes force-users pretty much on par with non-force users, it has not been the case generally, and the bad taste tends to carry over.

It's also worth reiterating that 'force user' != 'Jedi'. The two were typically treated as synonymous in older material, and this still tends to confuse things. Someone who is force sensitive is in no way compelled to adhere to Jedi (or Sith) ideology, or even to know what those traditions are.

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I feel a part of the backlash against Jedi as PCs (and sometimes even just Force users in general) is the notion that said PCs have to fit certain molds, which may or may not fit the dynamic of a group, especially in an EotE game, where the PCs are far more prone to self-interest, enlightened or otherwise.

Some of it is a leftover bad taste from how the Force was handled in older systems.  Saga Edition catches a lot of heat due to how the skill system worked (especially at low levels) and just how broadly useful being trained in the Use the Force skill was (and that's before buying talents that let you substitute UtF for other skills).  WEG had this too, as once Force user PCs reached a point they could reliably trigger their many Force effects, they had a near-endless bag of tricks to pull from that the GM really couldn't do anything to stop, to say nothing of just how overpowered lightsabers could get in the hands of a reasonably competent Jedi.

But it may also be simple over-saturation in the Star Wars media, as the Jedi (and to a slightly lesser extent the Sith) have largely been dominating Star Wars stories for decades.  Rogue One and Solo gave us stories where there wasn't a Jedi to be seen, which was a bit of fresh air after the Prequels' and TCW's very heavy focus on Jedi protagonists.  Even Rebels caught some flak for Ezra's Jedi training being a major focus in the early seasons (jury's still out as to how well Sabine's "leader of the Mandos" arc was handled).

I also think it may be a case of the type of players that are running Force user PCs.  I've seen far too many instances of players who claim they're playing a Jedi when in reality they're just playing a quasi-psychic thug with a laser sword as opposed to a character that actually adheres to the Jedi Code.  And much like the Munchkin murder-hobo PC, having those sorts of characters in the group can sour the fun, especially given that being a Jedi has generally been held to be such an iconic and respected thing in the franchise.  I've been playing Jedi PCs (and actually striving to have them act and behave like a Jedi should, based upon whatever material was available at the time) for a good 20+ years (truthfully, I think the number of non-Force user PCs I've played in Star Wars RPGs can be counted in single digits), and it's not always easy to have the character avoid becoming a caricature.

It's perhaps the same issue with some groups disliking the presence of your classic D&D Paladin, as such characters (if played appropriately) often instill/impose their own code of conduct onto the rest of the group, which may have players that would prefer to adopt more pragmatic solutions to whatever dilemma the adventure presents, and that can grate on some players as they feel that they're having the option to choose which solutions they take during an adventure hampered if not outright restricted by the presence of a Jedi PC.

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1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I also think it may be a case of the type of players that are running Force user PCs.  I've seen far too many instances of players who claim they're playing a Jedi when in reality they're just playing a quasi-psychic thug with a laser sword as opposed to a character that actually adheres to the Jedi Code.  And much like the Munchkin murder-hobo PC, having those sorts of characters in the group can sour the fun, especially given that being a Jedi has generally been held to be such an iconic and respected thing in the franchise.  I've been playing Jedi PCs (and actually striving to have them act and behave like a Jedi should, based upon whatever material was available at the time) for a good 20+ years (truthfully, I think the number of non-Force user PCs I've played in Star Wars RPGs can be counted in single digits), and it's not always easy to have the character avoid becoming a caricature.

There is also the reverse of this where the player wants to be playing "a quasi-psychic thug with a laser sword" (or even without the laser sword) and has to put up with all of the baggage that they're not being a proper Jedi. This is a problem when the "iconic and respected thing" isn't what the player wants yet there's still the expectation that they must " act and behave like a Jedi should." Getting crap for not living up to expectations that you never signed on for can really sour you to Jedi quicker than anything.

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Because they are goodie-two-shoes hypocrites who's actions are never what they say they mean and fight for "freedom and peace" while enforcing a bureaucratic nanny state? #Notbiased

Edited by SithArissa

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2 hours ago, SithArissa said:

Because they are goodie-two-shoes hypocrites who's actions are never what they say they mean and fight for "freedom and peace" while enforcing a bureaucratic nanny state? #Notbiased

Hey, some of us happen to like nanny states! I keep all my stuff in one! ;)

Having survived the grimdark era known as the 90s, I've pretty much had it with that particular brand of anti-heroes, and most characters I play these days are people who generally try to be good people in bad circumstances. Struggle to be good in most cases. The thing is, being the good guy should be the hard choice in most cases, and playing someone who tries to uphold paladin-esque jedi ideals while being on the run from the empire tends to be very hard.

What do you do if a dangerous enemy surrenders? Keep him locked up on your ship? Look around for a prison that will take him? Let him go, potentially putting others at risk at a later date? Execute him on the spot? 

Playing jedi from a position of power isn't as interesting because there's a system to fall back on. Under the empire you might only have yourself, and starting to give in to the more pragmatic choices might become neccessary. Which, of course, might send you careening down a dark path.

Being a noble jedi should be a struggle, with constant temptation to do things the easy way.

 

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10 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

There is also the reverse of this where the player wants to be playing "a quasi-psychic thug with a laser sword" (or even without the laser sword) and has to put up with all of the baggage that they're not being a proper Jedi. This is a problem when the "iconic and respected thing" isn't what the player wants yet there's still the expectation that they must " act and behave like a Jedi should." Getting crap for not living up to expectations that you never signed on for can really sour you to Jedi quicker than anything.

The point you're missing is those sorts of players are claiming "I'm playing a Jedi!" when frankly they're not.

It's the same as having a PC claiming they're playing a 4-color Golden Age superhero when the reality is they're playing a 90's anti-hero.  Or playing a carbon-copy of Maul post-TCW but trying to claim they're an upstanding and respected member of the Jedi Order.

If those sorts of players want to be the quasi-psychic thug with a laser sword, fine.  But they shouldn't go around calling themselves something they aren't.  That sort of character has generally betrayed the ideals that the Jedi Order professes, and is more the sort of individual the Jedi Order would track down and stop, especially if said character has gone the murder-hobo route.

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38 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

The point you're missing is those sorts of players are claiming "I'm playing a Jedi!" when frankly they're not.

It's the same as having a PC claiming they're playing a 4-color Golden Age superhero when the reality is they're playing a 90's anti-hero.  Or playing a carbon-copy of Maul post-TCW but trying to claim they're an upstanding and respected member of the Jedi Order.

If those sorts of players want to be the quasi-psychic thug with a laser sword, fine.  But they shouldn't go around calling themselves something they aren't.  That sort of character has generally betrayed the ideals that the Jedi Order professes, and is more the sort of individual the Jedi Order would track down and stop, especially if said character has gone the murder-hobo route.

And the reality of the situation is that its actually quite hard to live up to the lofty ideals and tenets of the Jedi when full of beer and pretzels and jeff just told a joke about falling on a cucumber. Think we have to take a step back and realize that the majority of players will be murder hobos because being a murder hobo is a lot more fun than a stoic defender of the light.

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2 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

And the reality of the situation is that its actually quite hard to live up to the lofty ideals and tenets of the Jedi when full of beer and pretzels and jeff just told a joke about falling on a cucumber. Think we have to take a step back and realize that the majority of players will be murder hobos because being a murder hobo is a lot more fun than a stoic defender of the light.

That might describe your group, but doesn't match up to most of the groups I've gamed with regarding the "beer and pretzels" attitude.

As for the difference of being a murder-hobo vs. defender of the light (who don't always have to be stoic), maybe that says something about you that you find it easier RPing a murderous thug as opposed to RPing someone who wants to actively make their world a better place.

Besides, nowhere is it said that Jedi have to emotionless automatons on par with Star Trek's Vulcans.  Even in the films we see Jedi who freely engage in humor; Obi-Wan is infamous for it, especially in TCW, and even Yoda and Qui-Gon get in on the act.  Ahsoka was anything but stoic, and apart from some early series brattiness did a pretty good job of being a "defender of the light" in what was a very dark circumstance.

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8 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

That might describe your group, but doesn't match up to most of the groups I've gamed with regarding the "beer and pretzels" attitude.

As for the difference of being a murder-hobo vs. defender of the light (who don't always have to be stoic), maybe that says something about you that you find it easier RPing a murderous thug as opposed to RPing someone who wants to actively make their world a better place.

Besides, nowhere is it said that Jedi have to emotionless automatons on par with Star Trek's Vulcans.  Even in the films we see Jedi who freely engage in humor; Obi-Wan is infamous for it, especially in TCW, and even Yoda and Qui-Gon get in on the act.  Ahsoka was anything but stoic, and apart from some early series brattiness did a pretty good job of being a "defender of the light" in what was a very dark circumstance.

Well after you work that stick out, have a look and I think you'll find that the 'beer and pretzel attitude' is how most, not all no, but most people will be running their sessions.

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1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

The point you're missing is those sorts of players are claiming "I'm playing a Jedi!" when frankly they're not.

It's the same as having a PC claiming they're playing a 4-color Golden Age superhero when the reality is they're playing a 90's anti-hero.  Or playing a carbon-copy of Maul post-TCW but trying to claim they're an upstanding and respected member of the Jedi Order.

If those sorts of players want to be the quasi-psychic thug with a laser sword, fine.  But they shouldn't go around calling themselves something they aren't.  That sort of character has generally betrayed the ideals that the Jedi Order professes, and is more the sort of individual the Jedi Order would track down and stop, especially if said character has gone the murder-hobo route.

Not quite; the players I've seen have said "I want Jedi powers" not that they want to be Jedi. It's like wanting cool kung fu in the 1970s without being a Shaolin monk. The examples of such are plentiful,  yet they are always called out as being exceptions to the rule. 

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On 2/16/2019 at 2:10 PM, Sincereagape said:

 

My old table from 2018, in the current game the two altruistic padwan force users are not revealing the location of the Warden holocron from Lure of the Lost to prevent the fallen Jedi  Rav Naaran from locating it. The older players comprised of a sharpshooter, ace pilot, medic, and sabeotour are pissed at them. The sharpshooter player even before hand stated “I hate force users. I hate Jedi.”

I don’t get it. Why the hate for force users?  Why the hate for Jedi?

 

Well, in that particular case it's either an in-character objection (which is fine! I wish that would happen at my table more) or out-of-character resentment about needing to go along with a code of morals while in-character. No different from hating on paladins/knights in fantasy games.

 

More generally, I think it's because Force sensitivity seems like being "born lucky". The mechanics of this system often don't work that way in practice, though at high XP numbers, you can certainly make an argument that force users become minor gods. And worse, it's 'cool godhood', where they're tossing lightning. Never mind that they're doing less damage with it than a gun-wielder of half their XP.

 

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As a predominantly Sith player it's tempting to say BECAUSE THE JEDI ARE FLAWED MISGUIDED FOOLS! But...it's more that the Jedi Order was designed to be flawed.
Luke turns away from what Ben/Yoda say in order to do the right thing over the balanced thing. The prequels paints the Jedi as a weird stoic order and the EU lore around that (especially the excellent Kotor games) illustrate how the Jedi order constantly undercuts itself with teachings which aren't whole. 
But this is by design.
I personally do not enjoy the rigid mantra of the Jedi and when reading books often enjoy more the Jedi characters who struggle with being one. 

Guess what i'm saying is that if you were to play the jedi 'right' then it'd not be fun. The ideal Jedi would be the kind of person we find our heroes in the canon turn from or evolve out of.

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8 hours ago, SithArissa said:

Well after you work that stick out, have a look and I think you'll find that the 'beer and pretzel attitude' is how most, not all no, but most people will be running their sessions.

'fraid not.  Then again, perhaps I just game with a better quality of people than you and HappyDaze game with.

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35 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

'fraid not.  Then again, perhaps I just game with a better quality of people than you and HappyDaze game with.

Or perhaps they're also trying to pull the stick out with their own heads as much as you are. Guess we'll never know. 

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45 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

Or perhaps they're also trying to pull the stick out with their own heads as much as you are. Guess we'll never know. 

Or maybe we're just simply a different sort of gamers than you and your ilk. No need for you to be such an abrasive twit about it.  So maybe you're the one that needs to pull their head out of their own hindquarters.

But I suppose I should thank you for proving that you have absolutely nothing of value to contribute to this or really any other conversation.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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I had a mate in the pub telling me that the sith were really the good guys in the star wars story, and that made me think of this thread. I partly wonder if players have to some extent brought the hate for it through their playing of the characters. For every good player there's one who will spam powers to get what they want or either end up super edgy and try to be a 'grey jedi' (the one when you can be evil without repercussion) or lawful stupid. 

When I've gm'd I've had good and bad jedi characters presented, so i think they can be played well by a sensible player with a pretty basic understanding of the lore (you only really need the films to play a jedi I reckon). This does mean though that it won't always work in a campaign where humour is a primary or if players aren't heavily invested int he setting or lore (not necessarily a bad thing though, just alters the setting a little). 

I personally liked the jedi because it's one of the things that separates Star Wars to other sci-fi's. I liked that mysticism and unexplained powers that it added to the setting (plus some pretty cool action and powers).   

Having said that I get why people may not like them. They do have a pretty restricting code to follow, and ultimately they were pretty arrogant and misguided by design. 

Overall, I think that ultimately it's not so much that people hate jedi, but more that those who do are a bit more vocal about it (it's why there's so many bad reviews on the internet compared to good ones). I could be wrong, it may be that my mates just don't mind them, but that's my take. :)

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3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

'fraid not.  Then again, perhaps I just game with a better quality of people than you and HappyDaze game with.

Whoa, why the jab? My players are quality people and good gamers. Who are you to judge them or their playing style?

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One thing FFG did right was to make the field wide open for Force-sensitives who are not Jedi. I really prefer their take on the Force, as something PCs might have but not have any clue how to use. If the GM is restricting folks to the Jedi or the Sith, that's understandable, but it's a shame. In short, when I play Force-sensitives, I want them to be learning new tricks from Baran Do sages, seeking out Gand findsmen to ask about strange dreams they've having, smoking pipes with Ewok shamans, etc. The Force is much larger than Sith or Jedi, and this game is poised to let groups embrace that.

Another point is that the Jedi are kind of boring.  I always dreaded the Luke Force scenes in the OT as a kid. Give me the scoundrel stuff and the Rebel battles. Luke on Jabba's sail barge was cool, but Luke on Dagobah or in the Emperor's throne room? Yawn.

That said, it's of course all subjective. I also find people who insist on always playing Sith or playing Mandalorians to be just as bad or worse that the all-Jedi folks in their ability to fall into stereotypes.

Edited by SavageBob

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6 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

One thing FFG did right was to make the field wide open for Force-sensitives who are not Jedi. I really prefer their take on the Force, as something PCs might have but not have any clue how to use.

Absolutely! This system really allows for self-taught Force-users, and in the default setting/time period, those are likely to far outnumber Force-users of organized traditions. Some of them may pick up lightsabers and Force-powers to be Jedi-like, but there's no reason that they have to be Jedi in thought or deed.

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9 hours ago, SavageBob said:

One thing FFG did right was to make the field wide open for Force-sensitives who are not Jedi. I really prefer their take on the Force, as something PCs might have but not have any clue how to use.

That said, it's of course all subjective. I also find people who insist on always playing Sith or playing Mandalorians to be just as bad or worse that the all-Jedi folks in their ability to fall into stereotypes.

Regarding Jedi (and the common misconception that Force User = Jedi), that can be laid at the feet of West End Games, who (based on what little lore there was at them time) simply used the word "Jedi" as shorthand for "person that knows how to use the Force."  It wasn't until years later that the concept of Force adepts, much less the Sith as an actual Force-wielding tradition, came into being, but that point the damage had largely been done.  Of course, saying Jedi as opposed to Force user is faster and easier to say/type, which is why you see it cropping up amongst players that have never so much as looked at the d6 system, to say nothing of the films' and (earlier) books' obsessions with Jedi being the big focus where Force users are concerned.

And good point on Mandalorian players, especially those who've bought into Karen Traviss' interpretation of their society/culture and how they were inherently superior (both morally and in combat ability) to everyone else in the galaxy, with jokes that the only reason Vader lasted so long was that Kal Skirata couldn't be bothered to go deal with him.  Though at least there, if a players want's to be a vicious amoral thug wearing a specific style of armor, then they're at least keeping up with at least one of the more common interpretations of Mandalorians.

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2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Though at least there, if a players want's to be a vicious amoral thug wearing a specific style of armor, then they're at least keeping up with at least one of the more common interpretations of Mandalorians.

Or, if you go with current canon, the armor-wearing thugs (like Jango Fett and Boba Fett) are no more Mandalorians than the lightsaber-wielding thugs are Jedi.

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