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SpiderMana

Standing out from the Swarm Article

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1 minute ago, player3679152 said:

Nonsense. I'm a model hobby person; as such, factory paint schemes don't matter to me, because if I care enough I'll paint my own, and if I don't care enough... then I don't care.

If FFG released exclusive alt dice - as long as readability is the same, I wouldn't care. Just as much as I don't care about alt art cards. If they released, say, Plo's scheme on an aethersprite at a con I don't go to, I'd be a little sad for all of five seconds or so, as long as there were no game mechanical elements locked behind an event.

So we agree? This is just me explaining why this is a bad idea. Any paint scheme might mean something to someone, and having it locked to an event is a bad idea. I will live, not even sad, just baffled over the stupid decision to start includong this kind of exclusive buyable content into the game all of a sudden. 

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49 minutes ago, Dwing said:

Guy who has the option to buy exclusive stuff, don't see the problem... Color me surprised... 

I literally apologized in the original post of this topic. I see how people might be upset that they can’t access these.

What I don’t understand is your “logic” that people paying for them somehow makes it a problem.

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18 minutes ago, Dwing said:

So we agree? This is just me explaining why this is a bad idea. Any paint scheme might mean something to someone, and having it locked to an event is a bad idea. I will live, not even sad, just baffled over the stupid decision to start includong this kind of exclusive buyable content into the game all of a sudden. 

Just now, Dwing said:

So we agree? This is just me explaining why this is a bad idea. Any paint scheme might mean something to someone, and having it locked to an event is a bad idea. I will live, not even sad, just baffled over the stupid decision to start includong this kind of exclusive buyable content into the game all of a sudden. 

I am utterly uninterested in the idea, but it doesn't make it bad. Indeed, judging by the people who seem to like getting alt art, it might even be that the idea is good.

Specifically, I think that your assertion that hobby model people are one category of people who would monolithically dislike this idea is incorrect - hobby model are finer-grained in their variation than that. It's akin to Darth Meanie's prior assertion that casual gamers are turned off by twice-annual points updates. Some might be, to be sure. Some are not.

The claims about dice and "really cool" alts presume that anybody who's okay alt art Hyenas have some sort of tipping point past which their opinion about alt art would change. I don't think that that's necessarily the case, either. For some, there would be - people saying they'd be really miffed if Black One was such an exclusive, for example. But there are also those of us who wouldn't be bothered if dice or Black One were simply more alt art. I went out very slightly out of my way to get Porkins' Red 6, but I did that in the same way that I might go out of my way to try a new flavour of ice-cream - out of joy and not fear.

Come to think of it, if one feels that exclusive alt art should be less significant, it would be nice to see MORE alt art for different cons - and indeed, Jedi Starfighters would be the ideal option to have produced for them, given the idiosyncracies of the order - so that Adepticon doesn't become some anomalous supercon.

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14 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I literally apologized in the original post of this topic. I see how people might be upset that they can’t access these.

What I don’t understand is your “logic” that people paying for them somehow makes it a problem.

I did not see any "apologies" (or need for one, you a certanly allowed to your own opinion). I think the big difference with this just being an ordinary expansion you buy instead of it being a price or free attention gift, is that its making a difference for the ordinary buyer. If its just another product, then it should be for all. At least via their own online shop. For me its a path they should not go down. If you won a gold ship or whatever, that would at least be something for the winner to show. 

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20 minutes ago, player3679152 said:

I am utterly uninterested in the idea, but it doesn't make it bad. Indeed, judging by the people who seem to like getting alt art, it might even be that the idea is good.

Specifically, I think that your assertion that hobby model people are one category of people who would monolithically dislike this idea is incorrect - hobby model are finer-grained in their variation than that. It's akin to Darth Meanie's prior assertion that casual gamers are turned off by twice-annual points updates. Some might be, to be sure. Some are not.

The claims about dice and "really cool" alts presume that anybody who's okay alt art Hyenas have some sort of tipping point past which their opinion about alt art would change. I don't think that that's necessarily the case, either. For some, there would be - people saying they'd be really miffed if Black One was such an exclusive, for example. But there are also those of us who wouldn't be bothered if dice or Black One were simply more alt art. I went out very slightly out of my way to get Porkins' Red 6, but I did that in the same way that I might go out of my way to try a new flavour of ice-cream - out of joy and not fear.

Come to think of it, if one feels that exclusive alt art should be less significant, it would be nice to see MORE alt art for different cons - and indeed, Jedi Starfighters would be the ideal option to have produced for them, given the idiosyncracies of the order - so that Adepticon doesn't become some anomalous supercon.

I have made no such black/White comments about any group, off course there are lots of shades and opinions. Its based on my view, im not putting words or opinions into other. I thing its a bs idea. If you don't care, fine. If you do care, this is a bad way to treat playing costomers. 

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Just now, Dwing said:

I think the big difference with this just being an ordinary expansion you buy instead of it being a price or free attention gift, is that its making a difference for the ordinary buyer.

🤨 Sooo, cosmetic items collector? You must hate SWtoR's cosmetics system... If you want one so badly you could always keep an eye on E-Bay and the like. One or two are sure to pop up for less than it would have cost to travel there, get through the gate and buy one.

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5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Sooo, cosmetic items collector? You must hate SWtoR's cosmetics system... If you want one so badly you could always keep an eye on E-Bay and the like. One or two are sure to pop up for less than it would have cost to travel there, get through the gate and buy one.

Swtor??? This one, the next model, what does it matter? The princible of buyable exclusive content for games is bad!!!! 

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1 hour ago, Dwing said:

Swtor??? This one, the next model, what does it matter? The princible of buyable exclusive content for games is bad!!!! 

Eeeeeey you actually found a way to make it sound at least semi sensible.

I disagree that paying for exclusive cosmetics is a problem but okay.

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4 hours ago, Dwing said:

Swtor??? This one, the next model, what does it matter? The princible of buyable exclusive content for games is bad!!!! 

See, I don’t think we can conclusively say that it is bad in principle. The challenge is when they start adding actual content to the game without adding it for all. Ie, a pilot or upgrade card.

Alternative paint like this is fundamentally no different than alt arts they’ve done before.

Last year, I bought an exclusive to the system open mat. Is that somehow bad? This to me is identical.

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13 hours ago, Dwing said:

 But yes the models actually matter to me, the rest is cardboard.

100% agreed. 

I would actually prefer a new exclusive pilot to be the swag,  that then ideally would at least be available to everyone casually in the app.

I buy the game for the models.   The PREPAINTED models.

They are one of the signature features of this game (and Armada) that make it stand out from other mini games. 

So, missing out on a alt paint ship is a bigger deal to me than missing out on an alt art card.

15 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Nothing's stopping you from going to FFG events other than yourself.

Except transportation costs, admission fees, and the fact that I work weekends.

And even if I did all this for the primary reason of scoring that ship, what is that model's cost to me?  $500+??

13 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

  99.9% of Meanie's complaints would be resolved by him,

100% of the complaints on these boards would be resolved by just playing the game FFG provides, without questions, suppositions, or personal desires.  You try to make it sound like I'm a special case, but I'm not.

Maybe we should just pin a SHUT UP AND PLAY post as a header?

Of course, I have no idea what anyone would talk about anymore.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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8 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Maybe we should just pin a SHUT UP AND PLAY post as a header?

 Of course, I have no idea what anyone would talk about anymore.

"I find that shut and play header offensive!"

9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I would actually prefer a new exclusive pilot to be the swag,  that then ideally would at least be available to everyone casually in the app.

 

This is a problem, unfortunately. While I’m sure some 90-99% of us would love new pilots to existing ships, limited edition cards has been proven to be problematic in other games. Alt-arts though are safe because everyone already can get access to a legal substitute. I don’t think this thread is a good place to discuss the various options for new pilots to be introduced but I’m not sure there’s a problem free scenario for FFG to proceed here.

 

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14 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

 

I would actually prefer a new exclusive pilot to be the swag,  that then ideally would at least be available to everyone casually in the app.

I buy the game for the models.   The PREPAINTED models.

Just because you collect X-wing, does not make it a collectable game. 

If I collect huge bran flakes, is it nutty to get pissed at Raisin Bran if they start selling huge-flake cereal, but only in Tasmania? 

What percentage of customers do you suppose buy X-Wing Minature soley for the models? Has to be minimal.

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Imagine a parallel universe in which FFG never announced these alt-paint scheme Vultures. Then NOBODY would ever have thought or asked about a metallic painted version. But for some reason it's a super big deal now and people are pissed because they can't get one. Great.

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18 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I would actually prefer a new exclusive pilot to be the swag,  that then ideally would at least be available to everyone casually in the app.

Eeeh...that presents it's own problem. What if said pilot is really good? Sure it's okay for casual players to just print off a piece of paper that reads 'MR REALLY GOOD PILOT'. However, for people attending official events, this creates a problem; they either have to shell out to scalpers to get a really decent card, or they have to attend the event which they may not be able to attend due to other logistics beyond their control.

I saw this happen with Attack Wing. Prize OP packs had some really good ships or upgrade cars and you'd see ships hit ebay at nearly £70+ per ship which if you wanted to at least stand a chance in OP events you really had to invest in. That doesn't exactly make it a level playing field for anyone. A good example of this was Khan in Attack Wing. The Gencon exclusive Khan captain had the ability "If any captain in play has a higher skill number than khan, khan's skill number equals that captain's skill number." Looking at the Attack Wing worlds after that, all top lists had that Khan exclusive captain in it because without it you were essentially handicapped.

That's why I like that X-Wing has cosmetic only prizes because you just end up with a shinier version of something everyone else can still access and use.

The same argument can be applied to what's going on in video games lately with lootboxes (they suck); if you have cosmetic items then it will not impact the balance of your game. However, if you introduce mechanically beneficial stuff in the boxes then people will have to shell out for it. Don't get me wrong, this is kinda what happens already with each expansion they introduce really interesting or new mechanics. The difference is that everyone can purchase those packs to get them they don't need to display prowess at the game to get access to it. Doing that actually would introduce a positive feedback loop in the game where the good players would just get access to better and better stuff while those more casual-level tournament players (a category I fall into) would lag behind.

As such...I'd have to respectfully disagree with your preference and the assertion of "It's okay, cuz app...". You are effectively damning the community that doesn't impact you. You are thinking completely selfishly (no disrespect intended by saying that, merely stating what I perceive to be the case) as what your suggestion would have a negative impact on the entire tournament scene (which I know you do not care about one iota, which is the problem) merely to make yourself feel better that you have the exclusive stuff.

18 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

100% of the complaints on these boards would be resolved by just playing the game FFG provides, without questions, suppositions, or personal desires.  You try to make it sound like I'm a special case, but I'm not.

Maybe we should just pin a SHUT UP AND PLAY post as a header?

Well...yeah, I can see that. However, from what I have seen of your threads, Meanie, you seem to dislike more about this game than you like and that's kind of a problem. It's okay to want a game to be better, but at what point do you say 'You know what, this isn't for me?' instead of trying to change the game to what you want by shouting into the void and upsetting a visible majority of the player base, and I do say visible majority because while we will never know exactly how many people also share your viewpoint or oppose it the general indication by responses is that people disagree.

Again, none of this is intended to offend, it probably will and I accept that. Just saying it's not meant to offend doesn't magically stop it from doing so. So I'm just going to lay it out there on the table.

Any time someone posts a solution or reason for something you dislike, the general response I see in return amounts to "I just don't like it that way." and...that's not really constructive. You harp on about epic, a format I adore...but also fully understand why it's not exactly tippy top of FFG's list of things to do right now, and seeing you mention it every time someone brings up another problem with some passive aggressive comment like "Could be worse, you could be an epic player..." just makes me roll my eyes. Second Edition is barely a year old. Epic took 21 months to arrive in 1.0 and I get it, it shouldn't need to take 21 months because the groundwork has already been laid....but FFG also has 14 waves of ships to release and from the looks of it they want a wave every 3 months. That's a very advanced released schedule to then fit Epic into, no doubt they'll find a way, its just a question of time.

Regarding the rereleases with no new content making Rebels, Imps and Scum stagnent. FFG cannot win in that scenario. Either they have new stuff in those expansions and tick off people who purchased the conversion kits, or they keep it all as it is and tick off people who don't want to buy out of faction. Sure they can release a card pack, but suddenly that's ANOTHER product that needs to be shipped and stocked on store shelves. I don't see a way they could have done it without ticking people off. The only people who win are those who are also buying into the new factions. Regarding the stagnation of the existing factions, we don't know what the future will bring and if I am 100% honest...Rebel and Imperial have enough ships. Maybe one or two more here and there, a TIE Brute, some repaints with new gear in squadron packs maybe...but Rebels and Imperials don't need more ships.

I could go on and on with all this, but I will finish up with this. I am not part of FFG's design team, nor am I associated with them in any way. I'm just a guy who plays X-Wing, Armada and their RPG and has a good time while trying to carve out a meagre living working in a call centre. Why is this important? Because I am trained in game design. I got a degree in it sitting on my wall gathering dust doing sweet FA for me and that's by choice, because this forum, in general, and the internet as a whole made me realise "You know what, I don't want to be a game designer", why? Quite honestly because I have thin skin and people are a-holes. Mistakes happen, things get past testing, things are not perfect especially when it comes to something as complex as game design. It's people like you that made me abandon my desire to enter the game design world. I do not envy the designers of this game, the amount of **** they get thrown their way for any big or small issue. It's a wonder they even bother to do interviews with shows and podcasts, let alone make the bloody game.

Edit: I do want to finish off with this. Don't stop posting about things you want to improve. It's okay to want things to be better so long as you consider the whole and not just what 'you' want. It is of course your right to post whatever the **** you want. I guess all my post was for was hoping you'd look at a new perspective? I guess?

Edited by Ebak

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On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 2:44 PM, Dwing said:

No if this was a price or free swag, I would not care, this is just an expansion not available to all. And yes the models to me are the most important thing. Pretty sure a lot of people would dislike if FFG made some cool dice, you could only buy at one event. 

I'd describe myself as both modeller/painter and gamer and neither of these things bother me at all. I'm genuinely struggling to understand why someone would be annoyed that someone else got slightly fancier dice by attending an event when they are functionally the same as the regular item. Like, why is that annoying? Seems to purely be a jealousy thing over something that is ultimately inconsequential. Similarly, I love the Defender and if FFG were to release a cool limited edition Defender as a Gencon-only model my reaction would be an emphatic "whatever". The fact someone else may get to own something I think is quite cool isn't something to get worked up about in the slightest.

If nothing else, this thread has proven to me that as far as some people are concerned FFG can do no right. I remain amazed at the capacity of the human race to find new things to complain about.

Edited by Jike

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1 hour ago, Jike said:

If nothing else, this thread has proven to me that as far as some people are concerned FFG can do no right. I remain amazed at the capacity of the human race to find new things to complain about.

And I’m sure there will be more things to complain about in the future too. Everyone feels like somebody owes them something.

Only thing I think folks are owed is what they contractually (whether formal or informal “gentleman’s agreement”) take part in. So if ffg says “we will do X”, they better do it. If ffg doesn’t say anything and just releases a new cool exclusive? Well they never said there wouldn’t be swag (in fact swag is one of the cool things about system open series in hat it’s available to more than just top performers).

Now, if ffg started throwing in really powerful stuff in one faction that could be used by all? Different story, but only because of what they promised at the onset of 2.0 (the gentleman’s agreement of “stay on and see no generic upgrades behind a faction paywall, you can all have them”)

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On 2/16/2019 at 8:44 AM, Dwing said:

No if this was a price or free swag, I would not care, this is just an expansion not available to all. And yes the models to me are the most important thing. Pretty sure a lot of people would dislike if FFG made some cool dice, you could only buy at one event. 

Oh yeah I've been meaning to respond to this one---They've definitely had "cool dice" that you can only get at premiere events before, yeah? That was before my time with X-Wing, but I'm pretty sure I've seen them around.

I understand that at one con is a bit different than at one whole level of competition, but still.

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1 hour ago, SpiderMana said:

Oh yeah I've been meaning to respond to this one---They've definitely had "cool dice" that you can only get at premiere events before, yeah? That was before my time with X-Wing, but I'm pretty sure I've seen them around.

I understand that at one con is a bit different than at one whole level of competition, but still.

You seen seen prize dice around, sure. Not stuff you just buy. (at least not official ones). But I can read from a lot of comments people can't tell the difference from something you win or buy. 

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12 minutes ago, Dwing said:

You seen seen prize dice around, sure. Not stuff you just buy. (at least not official ones). But I can read from a lot of comments people can't tell the difference from something you win or buy. 

We understand the difference, we just don't care either way. If FFG release another article today saying there will also be special, commemorative dice available at Adepticon too it would make no difference to me whatsoever, regardless of how cool I thought they were. It's pretty much the definition of pettiness to get this worked up about a limited-release item where the difference to the regular item is purely cosmetic.

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53 minutes ago, Jike said:

We understand the difference, we just don't care either way. If FFG release another article today saying there will also be special, commemorative dice available at Adepticon too it would make no difference to me whatsoever, regardless of how cool I thought they were. It's pretty much the definition of pettiness to get this worked up about a limited-release item where the difference to the regular item is purely cosmetic.

A lot of people here seem to think their opinion matters more than others, or arguing by calling people stuff wins an the argument... good luck with that, a lot of people that wrote they don't care, seems to be the most poisinous. 

Edited by Dwing

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