Jump to content
HanScottFirst

Paige Tico, VTG: shoot a side arc, rotate, shoot rear arc?

Recommended Posts

So, you can only rotate a bowtie F/B or R/L, but I think this works:

A Bomber w/Paige and VTG, Bowtie set R/L: (1) shoots a ship out of its Right arc. (2) It uses Paige to rotate arc F/B, so the Right bowtie is now in the front, and the Left bowtie is now in the back. (3) It then shoots with VTG out the back with the "Left Arrow" and then rotates with Paige R/L again.  

So, if you are careful to rotate the side arc you shot from to the front, you can use Paige/VTG to shoot Side then Back? So Paige and VTG are pretty much a 360 arc?

 

Edited by HanScottFirst

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, StephenEsven said:

You do not need to track which half of the bowtie pointed where. You shot out of the left arc and then the rear arc. That is all that matters.

You do because Veteran Turret Gunner specifies it be a different turret arc from the one that triggered it, not standard arc. Rotate changes where the turret arc points but the turret arc is still counted as having fired.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You do because Veteran Turret Gunner specifies it be a different turret arc from the one that triggered it, not standard arc. Rotate changes where the turret arc points but the turret arc is still counted as having fired.

To be clear, in a tournament you'd recommend calling out an opponent who attacked left, rotated clockwise, and then tried to attack front with VTG because they should have rotated counter-clockwise?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, KiAdiMoody said:

To be clear, in a tournament you'd recommend calling out an opponent who attacked left, rotated clockwise, and then tried to attack front with VTG because they should have rotated counter-clockwise?

If you're running a gunship then you need to keep track of it so yes. The alternative would permit an Init split double tap with Rebel Han gunner...

Edited by Hiemfire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

If you're running a gunship then you need to keep track of it so yes. The alternative would permit an Init split double tap with Rebel Han gunner...

You're wrong. It's defined somewhere that actually the indicator only covers the actual arcs. So front back, left and right. So it doesn't matter which of the 2 parts of the bowtie is pointing to an arc, they both represent the same thing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll have to come back to this tomorrow and do a "Welcome to 2.0. Once again, here's how arcs work now." post, it's time to hang with my kid. Till then read over the Arcs section of the Rules Reference (starts on page 3, ends on page 4) and pay special attention to the "Turret Arcs" section.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I'll have to come back to this tomorrow and do a "Welcome to 2.0. Once again, here's how arcs work now." post, it's time to hang with my kid. Till then read over the Arcs section of the Rules Reference (starts on page 3, ends on page 4) and pay special attention to the "Turret Arcs" section.

Technically you are right. 

In practice, I'm on board with those who ridicule being this neatpicky about the mechanism. The generalisation of the restrictions to the 4 arcs is pretty much on point in 99% of the cases. There's about one card in the game (albeit discussed in this thread) that allows for multiple bowtie rotations a turn and even with it, there's literally nothing wrong with the generalisation - unless you're so desperate about winning against the bomber you go "full smartarse" and try to prevent them from shooting because "they ought have rotated clockwise instead". All in all, we all know there is a rotation available that lets them shot. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ryfterek said:

Technically you are right. 

In practice, I'm on board with those who ridicule being this neatpicky about the mechanism. The generalisation of the restrictions to the 4 arcs is pretty much on point in 99% of the cases. There's about one card in the game (albeit discussed in this thread) that allows for multiple bowtie rotations a turn and even with it, there's literally nothing wrong with the generalisation - unless you're so desperate about winning against the bomber you go "full smartarse" and try to prevent them from shooting because "they ought have rotated clockwise instead". All in all, we all know there is a rotation available that lets them shot. 

Ya, I over did my response.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me it just seemed natural to fire out one end of the double arc, rotate, and fire from the one that hadn't fired yet, and I automatically played it that way in my games with the list.  To be fair, my opponent's ships usually ended up being targetable from either a front/side rotated arc or a rear/side rotated arc.  Typically, you want to use the primary front arc first in 90% of the double taps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't confuse Turret Arc and Turret Arc Indicator.

The Turret Arc Indicator points to the Standard Arc that is then also a Turret Arc. The bowtie indicator counts as 2 Turret Arc Indicators, and the two Standard Arcs they point to are Turret Arcs. If you attack from say the left Turret Arc, then rotate the bowtie, you now have a forward and rear Turret Arc. It dows not matter which end of the indicator points the the Turret Arc for the second attack.

If it did, then the same should be true for a single Turret Arc Indicator, meaning that if it pointed left, and you attacked, then rotated it to a different direction, you could not perform a second attack, because you already fired from the Turret Arc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, StephenEsven said:

Don't confuse Turret Arc and Turret Arc Indicator.

The Turret Arc Indicator points to the Standard Arc that is then also a Turret Arc. The bowtie indicator counts as 2 Turret Arc Indicators, and the two Standard Arcs they point to are Turret Arcs. If you attack from say the left Turret Arc, then rotate the bowtie, you now have a forward and rear Turret Arc. It dows not matter which end of the indicator points the the Turret Arc for the second attack.

If it did, then the same should be true for a single Turret Arc Indicator, meaning that if it pointed left, and you attacked, then rotated it to a different direction, you could not perform a second attack, because you already fired from the Turret Arc.

The latter point is kind of moot because there's no way for a single mobile arc to fire rotate fire all in the same round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, StephenEsven said:

If it did, then the same should be true for a single Turret Arc Indicator, meaning that if it pointed left, and you attacked, then rotated it to a different direction, you could not perform a second attack, because you already fired from the Turret Arc.

Interestingly that is exactly how it works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just checked the rules - There are four standard arcs on a ship, each of which a turret arc indicator can inhabit.  Turrets use standard arcs, but turret arcs are described by the direction of the indicator and can be treated as separate firing arcs.

For VTG, the condition of the bonus is that it must attack from a turret arc it has not already attacked from. So @StephenEsven is making a good point.  @thespaceinvader is right, though - this doesn't matter because currently only StarFortresses have two Gunner slots (unless the Deci does; I'm not familiar with Imperial ships in 2.0), and only with two Gunner slots can you use both Paige and the VTG.  VTG alone can't use the same turret arc to attack from as the first attack, and Paige can't perform a bonus attack after rotating the turret arc.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I tell a lie, single arc fire rotate fire IS possible.

Put Rebel Han Gunner on something, and run it with Airen.

2 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

Just checked the rules - There are four standard arcs on a ship, each of which a turret arc indicator can inhabit.  Turrets use standard arcs, but turret arcs are described by the direction of the indicator and can be treated as separate firing arcs.

For VTG, the condition of the bonus is that it must attack from a turret arc it has not already attacked from. So @StephenEsven is making a good point.  @thespaceinvader is right, though - this doesn't matter because currently only StarFortresses have two Gunner slots (unless the Deci does; I'm not familiar with Imperial ships in 2.0), and only with two Gunner slots can you use both Paige and the VTG.  VTG alone can't use the same turret arc to attack from as the first attack, and Paige can't perform a bonus attack after rotating the turret arc.

 

 

And as it happens I concur with this.  It's not a matter of which pointer was used, it's a matter of which arc the pointer was in when it was used.

Edited by thespaceinvader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/14/2019 at 5:15 PM, StephenEsven said:

You do not need to track which half of the bowtie pointed where. You shot out of the left arc and then the rear arc. That is all that matters.

I'll totally agree with this on a double-end turret arc ship.

Didn't we settle things this way when discussing folks wanting to use a rotate action from left-to-right and right-to-left?  These things are necessarily the same.  As such, there can't be a difference between rotating into a front/rear or rear/front from a side-pointing arc pair.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's not a matter of which pointer was used, it's a matter of which arc the pointer was in when it was used.

I think this is going to be true for a single-arc, too, with an example like a Ghost or Y-Wing with Han Gunner and Airen Cracken.

"The turret arc indicator points toward one of the ship’s four standard arcs. The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a [turret arc symbol] in addition to still being a standard arc." To me, this says that the [turret arc symbol] isn't just the pointer, it's the combination of the pointer and the standard arc.  Once the standard arc is different, that seems like it'd be a different [turret arc].

However, I do think there's room on this question with single-arc turrets, and it'd be nice to get a clarification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had assumed the turret arc moved since the indicator did. Since re-reading, again, it turns out you guys are right, it disturbingly doesn't. SO Rebel Y-Wings and VCXs being able to fire 2 ICT shots in one round is a thing I guess... Both at the same target if the target is in 2 arcs... 

The Bare to get it ticking add upgrades to taste:

Norra Wexley (Y-Wing) (41)
Ion Cannon Turret (4)
Han Solo (14)

Airen Cracken (36)

Roark Garnet (43)

Total: 138

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/16/2019 at 12:10 PM, Hiemfire said:

I had assumed the turret arc moved since the indicator did. Since re-reading, again, it turns out you guys are right, it disturbingly doesn't. SO Rebel Y-Wings and VCXs being able to fire 2 ICT shots in one round is a thing I guess... Both at the same target if the target is in 2 arcs... 

The Bare to get it ticking add upgrades to taste:

Norra Wexley (Y-Wing) (41)
Ion Cannon Turret (4)
Han Solo (14)

Airen Cracken (36)

Roark Garnet (43)

Total: 138

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

...93 points is a lot of points to spend on an ion double tap when you could just bring another ion turret.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...