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Sergovan

Overlapping of an obstacle occurs when?

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I've looked into past pages and I could only find the deploying answer for an obstacle. I'm trying to wrap my head around how this works:

 

If you deploy on an obstacle you don't suffer its effects unless you go to move and your template or final base position overlap the obstacle, then you suffer the effects.

However, if someone flies past you and drops a Rigged Cargo Chute debris obstacle on you, you suffer its effects immediately, before you move? Is this true?

 

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From the FAQ:

Quote

 

Q: Does a Proximity Mine, when dropped overlapping a ship in the System Phase, detonate immediately?

A: Yes. When an object is placed underneath a ship, that ship counts as overlapping that object.

 

A ship should therefore suffer the effects of overlapping a debris field when rigged cargo is dropped on it.

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2 hours ago, Maui. said:

A ship should therefore suffer the effects of overlapping a debris field when rigged cargo is dropped on it.

While this ruling does make sense, there is some doubt, as the rules reference guide has some potential self-contradiction.  That is indeed a ruling, specific to Proximity Mines, and (IMHO) should also apply to Rigged Cargo Chute... however, the RRG entry for obstacles explicitly states that obstacle effects are only suffered when a ship moves onto or through it.  While there is indeed an overlap, the effects don't trigger unless there's also movement.  From the RRG, page 13, under "Obstacles":

Quote

Obstacles act as hazards that can disrupt and damage ships. A ship can suffer effects by moving through, overlapping, or while being at range 0 of obstacles.While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:

To that end, many TOs have ruled that merely placing a Debris Cloud under a ship is not enough to trigger stress; a move of some kind, that causes a "move through or overlap," must be present as well (usually maneuver or tractor beam, occasionally roll/boost, etc).

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4 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

While this ruling does make sense, there is some doubt, as the rules reference guide has some potential self-contradiction.  That is indeed a ruling, specific to Proximity Mines, and (IMHO) should also apply to Rigged Cargo Chute... however, the RRG entry for obstacles explicitly states that obstacle effects are only suffered when a ship moves onto or through it.  While there is indeed an overlap, the effects don't trigger unless there's also movement.  From the RRG, page 13, under "Obstacles":

Check the rulings thread:

The ship is immediately counted as 'overlapping' it, which is the rules trigger for stress/damage/collision detector/etc.

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7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Check the rulings thread:

The ship is immediately counted as 'overlapping' it, which is the rules trigger for stress/damage/collision detector/etc.

Outside of the question of enforcability of the rulings thread (which is an entirely different animal)... the rules for obstacles say nothing about what happens when a ship overlaps an obstacle.  The rules say what happens when a ship overlaps an obstacle while moving.  There is no information about what happens when a ship overlaps an obstacle without moving.  While I agree that it should trigger right away, absent a specific positive ruling about what does happen, many TOs I've worked with have stated that only movement triggers "overlap" obstacle effects.

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2 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Outside of the question of enforcability of the rulings thread (which is an entirely different animal)... the rules for obstacles say nothing about what happens when a ship overlaps an obstacle.  The rules say what happens when a ship overlaps an obstacle while moving.  There is no information about what happens when a ship overlaps an obstacle without moving.  While I agree that it should trigger right away, absent a specific positive ruling about what does happen, many TOs I've worked with have stated that only movement triggers "overlap" obstacle effects.

The sentence, "A ship can suffer the effects by moving through, overlapping or being at range 0 of obstactles", should cover the situation of having a debris cloud dropped on you. 

 

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2 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Outside of the question of enforcability of the rulings thread (which is an entirely different animal)...

I'm sure tournament going Dash doubletap fans are loving your implication here... Either they all apply universally or none of them apply and FFG is wasting their time with that thread...

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3 hours ago, Stoneface said:

The sentence, "A ship can suffer the effects by moving through, overlapping or being at range 0 of obstactles", should cover the situation of having a debris cloud dropped on you.

It should, yes... but there are exceptions.  A ship with Boba Fett crew deploying on an obstacle does *not* suffer its effects (unless he subsequently moves over the obstacle, which is back to the "move" statement).  The same is true if another ship deploys in a non-standard location, like Resistance Han Solo, or other First Order ships alongside Lieutenant Dormitz.  Given the precident that ships which deploy onto an obstacle do not suffer its effects (despite clearly being in an "overlapping" situation), why should the reverse NOT be true - that obstacles which deploy under a ship do not trigger effects, despite creating an "overlapping" situation?

 

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I'm sure tournament going Dash doubletap fans are loving your implication here... Either they all apply universally or none of them apply and FFG is wasting their time with that thread...

The only reason I say that the forum rules thread has questionable enforceability, is the fact that the Tournament Resources specifically call out the official rules, the RRG, and the tournament guide as the only official sources of rulings for tournament play.  Common sense says that the rules forum should be included; from an explicit, technical, exactly-as-it's-written standpoint, they are not.  Tournament Organizers, therefore, have to adjudicate their events as they see fit.  This could all be fixed with a single line stating that "official rulings for unusual cases can also be found on the FFG online forums," but... yeah.

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8 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

It should, yes... but there are exceptions.  A ship with Boba Fett crew deploying on an obstacle does *not* suffer its effects (unless he subsequently moves over the obstacle, which is back to the "move" statement).  The same is true if another ship deploys in a non-standard location, like Resistance Han Solo, or other First Order ships alongside Lieutenant Dormitz.  Given the precident that ships which deploy onto an obstacle do not suffer its effects (despite clearly being in an "overlapping" situation), why should the reverse NOT be true - that obstacles which deploy under a ship do not trigger effects, despite creating an "overlapping" situation.

Because, as you stated, they are exceptions. If you want a precedent for an obstacle causing damage when deployed under a ship look no further than the Prox Mine. It detonates immediately when deployed (dropped) under a ship. 

 

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If you look up the rules for debris, you only suffer the stress and crit if you manoeuvre through it. Overlapping one doesnt give you stress unfortunately. 

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3 hours ago, nurglez said:

If you look up the rules for debris, you only suffer the stress and crit if you manoeuvre through it. Overlapping one doesnt give you stress unfortunately. 

... and if you look up the rules for overlapping, the only way to overlap an object is while a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves.

"While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it overlaps an object if the ship’s final position would physically be on top of an object."

Since the official rules thread says very plainly that the rules for overlapping don't require a ship to move:

"Q: If the Loose Cargo from Rigged Cargo Chute [Illicit] overlaps another ship, what happens?

A: It is placed underneath the ship, and the ship overlaps it."

It is logical to conclude that the effects of overlapping the obstacle also would not require a ship to move.

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5 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

Since the official rules thread says very plainly that the rules for overlapping don't require a ship to move:

"Q: If the Loose Cargo from Rigged Cargo Chute [Illicit] overlaps another ship, what happens?

A: It is placed underneath the ship, and the ship overlaps it."

It is logical to conclude that the effects of overlapping the obstacle also would not require a ship to move.

It's not so much a matter of logic as one of pedantry. Some people insist that if the rules say "X happens if movement causes overlap", that X happens only if movement causes overlap and not when overlap happens for other reasons.

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Pg13.

 

While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an 
obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on 
the type of obstacle:
• Asteroid: After executing the maneuver, it rolls one attack die. On a 󲁧
result, the ship suffers one 󲁧 damage; on a 󲁨 result, it suffers one 󲁨
damage. Then the ship skips its Perform Action step this round.
• Debris Cloud: After the Check Difficulty step, the ship gains one 
stress token. After executing the maneuver, it rolls one attack die. On a 
󲁨 result, the ship suffers one 󲁨 damage.

 

Dropping a cargo on a ship counts that ship as overlapping it, but you only suffer the effects of a debris by moving through it.

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On 2/13/2019 at 10:52 PM, Stoneface said:

Because, as you stated, they are exceptions. If you want a precedent for an obstacle causing damage when deployed under a ship look no further than the Prox Mine. It detonates immediately when deployed (dropped) under a ship.

Only because there is an explicit rule stating as such.  In fact, we had to wait for a clarification and update which stated Proximity Mines detonated upon placement, because no such rule existed at the outset of Second Edition.

Please don't get me wrong - I think that your example creates a very compelling precedent that should be extended to Rigged Cargo Chutes & Loose Cargo Tokens.  But, as @Quarrel states, it's more a matter of semantics:  the rules outline what happens when a ship moves over an obstacle, NOT what happens when an obstacle is placed onto a ship (or vice versa).  All we know is that it "overlaps," but not whether or not it causes an effect.

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1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Only because there is an explicit rule stating as such.  In fact, we had to wait for a clarification and update which stated Proximity Mines detonated upon placement, because no such rule existed at the outset of Second Edition.

Actually I think that rule was from first edition.

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We had a lenghtly discussion at our local store and it took many tries before we all got ont he same page.  First of, we have what was already quoted in this thread:

"Q: If the Loose Cargo from Rigged Cargo Chute [Illicit] overlaps another ship, what happens?

A: It is placed underneath the ship, and the ship overlaps it."

We were all in agreement; the debris overlapped the ship.  What took a bit of brain rewiring was the definition found in "obstacles" in rules reference, page 13, which details what overlapping does based on different circumstances.  I'm paraphrasing for the effects of asteroids and debris to shorten this:

First part (does not apply, the ship was not executing a maneuver)

While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:

Asteroid: (suffer damage, skip perform action step)

Debris: (gain stress, suffer damage)

 

Second part (does not apply, the ship is not moving aka, doing a barrel roll or boost on obstacle / tractor beam)

While a ship is moving, but not executing a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its move as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:

Asteroid: (suffer damage, note that the skip perform action step is not there)

Debris: (gain stress, suffer damage)

 

Third part (this one applies)

While a ship is at range 0 of an obstacle it may suffer different effects.

Asteroid: the ship cannot perform attacks.  (The damage was suffered in earlier steps)

Debris: no entry = no effect.

 

What was hard to wrap our brains around was that part 1 and part 2 are mutually exclusive, but part 3 is actually seperate from part 1 and 2 and no damage or stress is dealt there at all.

 

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FFG just needs to update their ruling to be less useless. Yes FFG, we can clearly see that the ship is overlapping the debris, but does it suffer the effects that are normally reserved only for ships that are moving?

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