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Darth evil

we may as well get the ball rolling

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As someone who has gotten into every SW based miniature game FFG has produced and even a stint with their dice based card game, i have seen a trend that the designers do over and over again everytime the design a game. The stick Vader in the first wave, give him a ludicrous points cost because they think he will be over powered, he then turns out to be over costed and under powered and then they need to make a fix for him. This has happened in X-wing, Imperial Assault,Destiny and to an extent Armada because who really plays Vader as an Admiral, and now Legion. Lets face facts Vader costs a quarter of your list, takes 3 turns getting up the board and is the only hero without surges,like any, nada, zip. Another point is at 210 points because lets face it Saber throw is mandatory there is a better option in Emperor Palpatine. Personally i believe Vader needs to come down to 180 points and Saber throw should simply be his ranged weapon. 

 

What are your thoughts Legion Community?

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19 minutes ago, Darth evil said:

As someone who has gotten into every SW based miniature game FFG has produced and even a stint with their dice based card game, i have seen a trend that the designers do over and over again everytime the design a game. The stick Vader in the first wave, give him a ludicrous points cost because they think he will be over powered, he then turns out to be over costed and under powered and then they need to make a fix for him. This has happened in X-wing, Imperial Assault,Destiny and to an extent Armada because who really plays Vader as an Admiral, and now Legion. Lets face facts Vader costs a quarter of your list, takes 3 turns getting up the board and is the only hero without surges,like any, nada, zip. Another point is at 210 points because lets face it Saber throw is mandatory there is a better option in Emperor Palpatine. Personally i believe Vader needs to come down to 180 points and Saber throw should simply be his ranged weapon. 

 

What are your thoughts Legion Community?

Red dice without surge are better than black dice with surge.

Master of the Force 1 is better than none.

Speed 1 only moves with Relentless mean that Vader doesn’t care about difficult terrain.

With saber throw he can double move and throw a saber at range 2, effectively further than Luke can single move and shoot at range 2, and he does it with more impact and more pierce, and one more die.

Part of why Vader costs so many points is because he puts out so much damage and it isn’t reduced at all until he dies. You can’t attrit his dice down, you can’t panic him, you can’t suppress him.

short story: Vader is fine.

Edited by Derrault

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I have seen what you’re describing and I wish they would stop making new cards that “fix” the issue. It’s not just Vader too.

Instead of creating a new card that will work unexpectedly with another card that comes out in the future to make Vader suddenly over powered, why not just reduce his point cost? There’s a growing list of things that should have their points reduced, the T-47, Vader, the AT-ST (especially after the much cheaper Occupier Tank comes out). A points correction would be easy to do and easier to keep track of than some errata’d card, which is where things go next after a future card makes the “fix” card waaaay over powered.

Just sayin’, but then to see this coming ahead of time, we must be psychic. 🤪🙄😳

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While XW2.0 is nice because they can adjust on the fly, it creates two issues:

You need to be able to make a good program/app. (Sorry, the app is inferior to what others have made)

And

It makes me use something digital in order to play a mechanical game. (And if the store doesn't have WiFi or cell signal, you're SOL. And yes, I know one store outside of Philly where this is the case.).

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29 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

I have seen what you’re describing and I wish they would stop making new cards that “fix” the issue. It’s not just Vader too.

Instead of creating a new card that will work unexpectedly with another card that comes out in the future to make Vader suddenly over powered, why not just reduce his point cost? There’s a growing list of things that should have their points reduced, the T-47, Vader, the AT-ST (especially after the much cheaper Occupier Tank comes out). A points correction would be easy to do and easier to keep track of than some errata’d card, which is where things go next after a future card makes the “fix” card waaaay over powered.

Just sayin’, but then to see this coming ahead of time, we must be psychic. 🤪🙄😳

Points adjustments are helpful, but some things are better served by adding new rules or changing existing ones. That being said, Vader feels fine right now. His learning curve is higher than might be ideal in a starter set, but he's performed quite well once I got the hang of things.

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I'll be honest I only think people consider Vader over-priced because they haven't played him enough or have not used the objectives/staring positions to make him effective.  He is an incredible area denial piece.  It is true that you really need to be prepared to skew the start zones and objectives to be more Vader Friendly, but with the Royal guards, he got a huge boost.  Don't underestimate 2 squads of royal guards with the New Ways to Motivate Them card.

Edited by weebaer

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3 minutes ago, TylerTT said:

That you consider surges necessary really undermines your entire argument.

I dont think he really needs it but every single hero surges to crit , except Vader, so even though he rolls reds he jas more trouble against armor than Luke and his Saber throw suffers against cover

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1 hour ago, Darth evil said:

I dont think he really needs it but every single hero surges to crit , except Vader, so even though he rolls reds he jas more trouble against armor than Luke and his Saber throw suffers against cover

It's fine that he has problems with cover. Any unit that doesn't have immune: pierce, including the ones with impervious, are almost guaranteed to take the damage he rolls.

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3 hours ago, Darth evil said:

and to an extent Armada because who really plays Vader as an Admiral,

People who love Cymoons.  And there's a lot of those out there, too.

Not to mention those who swear by Darth Hall Monitor, especially on a Raider.

Or the Excitement of the upcoming Choke-Fest-for-Rerolls Officer......

 

Now, if you said Vader as a Squadron, you might be on to something...

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2 hours ago, Squark said:

Points adjustments are helpful, but some things are better served by adding new rules or changing existing ones.

Yes and no. If they need to correct a rule, or clearification, then I think you’re right, making a change is better.

When it’s an issue of a unit not seeing play, like the T-47, then changing rules can have the effect I describe, where the correction becomes a problem further in the future. Each time a new rule (or keyword) is created, it has to be weighed against how it will interact with rules that came before. 

It’s simpler and easier to just reduce the points. As far as Vader goes, I wouldn’t actually reduce him much. Maybe as little as 10 points (for the auto-include saber throw). As for the T-47, I can see that dropping as much as 75-90 points. The T-47 was priced so high, because of the Arsenal key word. Arsenal is a powerful keyword, but because the t-47’s weapons are facing two different directions it makes Arsenal almost useless, especially since it’s a speeder and needs to continually stay in motion. Even if you just want to use the speeder as is, you’re still paying for the keyword. 

You can see the new landspeeder coming out at 75 points (before weapons), but it has Arsenal 3 and all its weapons point the same direction (or can). The designers did learn from the T-47, but we still haven’t gotten a correction. We’ve seen from X-Wing that if the correction comes from another card, there will be rule/card bloat and making the T-47 balanced may unbalanced something else. The most direct way to correct the T-47 is points reduction.

Though I do agree that points reduction doesn’t work for everything.

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5 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

How do you reduce points costs on cards without making the game feel opaque? 

Every other table top wargame functions just fine with errata making point costs different than the printed codex/cards/rulebook says.

Refusing to fix something because "that would make all the cards/books obsolete!" is a terrible reason. Its the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and being all "Lalalala I'm not listening!"

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Luke with Stims and Push is 178. 178!!! He's 22 points cheaper than a naked Vader. If that doesn't convince you that Vader is overcosted, nothing will.

The problem with Vader is he pays for upgrades over Luke you don't really need. 3 courage is better than Infinite, imo. Pierce 3 is simply unnecessary. Impact 2 with Surge Crit is only marginally worse than Impact 3. Relentless is better than Charge, but I'd take Luke's 2 move, Jump charge every day of the week over Vader throwing a saber into heavy cover. Vader is only marginally better than Luke (maybe not even) and is waaaay more expensive. Hopefully they'll fix him. Don't know how.

Edited by SirCormac

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4 hours ago, Darth evil said:

I dont think he really needs it but every single hero surges to crit , except Vader, so even though he rolls reds he jas more trouble against armor than Luke and his Saber throw suffers against cover

Vader is  guaranteed at least 3 damage to armoured targets.

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They could simply add a couple more rules, or change the rules he has.

Frankly I think Deflect should read as "While defending, if you have a Dodge token, you gain Defense Surge: Block. If it is a ranged attack, the attacker suffers 1 wound for each Defensive Surge rolled"

Deflect is simply too weak as it stands. Needing to spend a dodge token to activate it is painful. But if it became a "while you have a dodge token" ability it would be more interesting.

 

And give him a new rule something like this,

Dark Lord: You may perform multiple Attack actions in the same activation. During each activation, you may perform 3 actions instead of 2.

This would turn him into a true melee blender without being unbalanced I feel. Vader just doesn't give enough reward for delivering him. Vader getting into melee should be a "Game over man!" moment if he's surrounded by enemies.

Edited by BadMotivator

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1 hour ago, BadMotivator said:

They could simply add a couple more rules, or change the rules he has.

Frankly I think Deflect should read as "While defending, if you have a Dodge token, you gain Defense Surge: Block. If it is a ranged attack, the attacker suffers 1 wound for each Defensive Surge rolled"

Deflect is simply too weak as it stands. Needing to spend a dodge token to activate it is painful. But if it became a "while you have a dodge token" ability it would be more interesting.

 

And give him a new rule something like this,

Dark Lord: You may perform multiple Attack actions in the same activation. During each activation, you may perform 3 actions instead of 2.

This would turn him into a true melee blender without being unbalanced I feel. Vader just doesn't give enough reward for delivering him. Vader getting into melee should be a "Game over man!" moment if he's surrounded by enemies.

If that change happened, it would pretty much be always on as Vader would always be the first choice for activation.

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Vader is an awesome piece - he has a high ceiling to play and requires you to think several turns ahead but generally speaking he obliterates anything him comes up against. He is a brilliant jack of all trades and your army won’t panic with him around - also, get him near objectives and those objectives aren’t flipping.

Saber Throw and relentless makes him very powerful plus his command cards are viscous. Would I like him to be less points? Sure, do I think it would be fair? No. Vader, 6 reds (or 3 reds) on white rebel dice . . .

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Vader is fine. At first I thought Palpatine would overshadow him but Vader's relentless keyword really gives him a bigger threat range. Add to that 8 health and more versatile command cards.

Palpatine is great, but his command cards are quite narrow (other than A Whole Legion) and he really needs Royal Guards on him or he'll be plinked down before he hobbles into range, which then makes him around 300+ points so he can be even harder to build around than Vader. 

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