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CaptainJaguarShark

Keyforge: Age of Ascension

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2 hours ago, Simplegarak said:

EDIT: Oh and let's get the obvious questions out of the way now:

  1. Can you play multiple "alpha" cards in a turn (as long as they are all the first thing you do?) or are they also limited to 1 per turn? 
  2. Wild Wormhole etc, what happens if a card like that pulls an alpha card? Are alpha cards functionally immune to mimicry?

My theories:

1. An alpha card has to be the first card you play. Cards are played one by one, not simultaneously. Once an alpha card is played, the next card you play is the second card you play not the first. The card you play after an alpha card can not be alpha.

2. An alpha card must be the first card you play. If wild wormhole is the first card you play, and it tries to play an alpha card, it can't. Wild wormhole can't play kelifi if you don't have enough aember either. Can't overrides can on conflicting card abilities.

3. Mimicry is a copy of the card. If mimicry is your first card, it can be an alpha card. If it is your second card it can't.

I'd be shocked if the first 2 were ruled differently.

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On 2/12/2019 at 4:01 PM, saluk64007 said:

Um, Which of the Wilds is  not a new card to Age of Ascension... but it is found on this list, lol. However, if they are just listing out the entire set of Acsention then it belongs there, just not a new card.

Edited by Dantastic24

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1 hour ago, Dantastic24 said:

Um, Which of the Wilds is  not a new card to Age of Ascension... but it is found on this list, lol. However, if they are just listing out the entire set of Acsention then it belongs there, just not a new card.

I'm assuming they have it under both sets, as a confirmed card coming back, although since its the only one it might have been a mistake.

Going to be confusing with some cards coming back and others not moving to AoA.

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52 minutes ago, saluk64007 said:

I'm assuming they have it under both sets, as a confirmed card coming back, although since its the only one it might have been a mistake.

Going to be confusing with some cards coming back and others not moving to AoA.

Don't forget that the "not moving" ones could show up as legacies though for maximum confusion. ;)

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@saluk64007 Mimicry was played as Mimicry first and foremost. Mimicry bypasses being a card outside of the choosen house because it’s an Untamed card first. It’s never a copy of another card before you play it or in the discard pile. Mimicry itself doesn’t have the alpha keyword and would only gain it after it’s already been played, well after the restriction would bar it from being played.

Edited by Hyperjayman

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On 2/15/2019 at 6:12 PM, Hyperjayman said:

@saluk64007 Mimicry was played as Mimicry first and foremost. Mimicry bypasses being a card outside of the choosen house because it’s an Untamed card first. It’s never a copy of another card before you play it or in the discard pile. Mimicry itself doesn’t have the alpha keyword and would only gain it after it’s already been played, well after the restriction would bar it from being played.

I can see this version as well. It seems though that "treat it as a copy" would inherit the restrictions, just as it inherits the bonus aember and the effect. Wild wormhole can't play a kelifi dragon if you don't have enough aember (kelifi returns to the deck), this feels like the same sort of grey area to me. Resolve as much as you can of mimicry - you try to copy the alpha card, but the card can't be played, so no effect happens. You can still play it, it just cant copy the alpha card.

I could see it going the other way, but feels against the intent of alpha.

Edited by saluk64007

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16 hours ago, Simplegarak said:

EDIT: Oh and let's get the obvious questions out of the way now:

  1. Can you play multiple "alpha" cards in a turn (as long as they are all the first thing you do?) or are they also limited to 1 per turn? 
  2. Wild Wormhole etc, what happens if a card like that pulls an alpha card? Are alpha cards functionally immune to mimicry?

So for my totally, non-authoritative take on all this:

1. I'm guessing no. There can only be one first.

2. I'd imagine for WW, it would be the same as if you tried to play a card but don't meet the requirements to put it in play (aember cost, for example): it just goes back to the top of the deck, unplayed. For Mimicry, I think the text of the card covers it pretty well. It says: "treat it as a copy of an action card in your opponent's discard pile." So if it's a copy of card (rather than a copy of an ability), it would be subject to the same restrictions. And to anticipate the obvious, I don't think playing Mimicry itself counts as playing another card first since the text is basically telling to you pretend that Mimicry is actually a different card.

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@saluk64007 You seem to not understand how Mimicry works in the rules of the game. They way you rationalize how it work would mean Mimicry could never become a copy of a nonUntamed card because it would become an invalid card to use since its no longer is a card of your chosen house. Which would make Mimicry a useless card. 

Mimicry bypasses being outside of your chosen house because its Mimicry FIRST then shift over to being something else. It why Mimicry can end up as a Dis,Sanctum,Brobnar,Shadows,Logos or Mars card. Mimicry copying a card with alpha would be no different. Mimicry bypasses alpha because Mimicry only becomes treated as a copy  AFTER you already played it, not before you play it. Mimicry isn’t a copy of anything while in your hand, thus it only gets alpha after the retriction can be applied.

And your Kelifi Dragon comparison doesn't work because Kelifi Dragon say it can’t be played unless you have 7 aember. Can't beats can which is why Wild Wormhole can’t play it. If we ever get a creature that becomes a copy of a creature, it will be able to copy Kelifi Dragon without having 7 aember because that creature wasn’t a copy of Kelifi Dragon before you played it and thus the restriction couldn’t appy after its in play.

Edited by Hyperjayman

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On 2/17/2019 at 9:54 AM, Hyperjayman said:

@saluk64007 You seem to not understand how Mimicry works in the rules of the game. They way you rationalize how it work would mean Mimicry could never become a copy of a nonUntamed card because it would become an invalid card to use since its no longer is a card of your chosen house. Which would make Mimicry a useless card. 

Mimicry bypasses being outside of your chosen house because its Mimicry FIRST then shift over to being something else. It why Mimicry can end up as a Dis,Sanctum,Brobnar,Shadows,Logos or Mars card. Mimicry copying a card with alpha would be no different. Mimicry bypasses alpha because Mimicry only becomes treated as a copy  AFTER you already played it, not before you play it. Mimicry isn’t a copy of anything while in your hand, thus it only gets alpha after the retriction can be applied.

And your Kelifi Dragon comparison doesn't work because Kelifi Dragon say it can’t be played unless you have 7 aember. Can't beats can which is why Wild Wormhole can’t play it. If we ever get a creature that becomes a copy of a creature, it will be able to copy Kelifi Dragon without having 7 aember because that creature wasn’t a copy of Kelifi Dragon before you played it and thus the restriction couldn’t appy after its in play.

What copying a card means is not defined in the rules - all we have to go on is how the card mimicry is worded. So it's a philosophical discussion at this point.

We just learned today that mimicry doesn't count for rule of six (the card you copied counts but you can play mimicry 7 times if you are copying different cards). I'll wait for a ruling on this one. Unlike some other set 2 questions that might only come up if certain cards return, you can play a mimicry deck against a set 2 deck, so we'll need a solid answer.

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3 hours ago, saluk64007 said:

What copying a card means is not defined in the rules - all we have to go on is how the card mimicry is worded. So it's a philosophical discussion at this point.

We just learned today that mimicry doesn't count for rule of six (the card you copied counts but you can play mimicry 7 times if you are copying different cards). I'll wait for a ruling on this one. Unlike some other set 2 questions that might only come up if certain cards return, you can play a mimicry deck against a set 2 deck, so we'll need a solid answer.

Do you mean any number higher than six, or is there something I'm missing that limit's Mimicry to seven?

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12 hours ago, Wandalf the Gizzard said:

Do you mean any number higher than six, or is there something I'm missing that limit's Mimicry to seven?

He's saying Mimicry can be used any number of times as long as you keep copying different effects.

Say you had a deck with 4 mimicry and somehow could do a loop with your whole deck. You could play all 4, twice (for a total of 8 times).  Say your opponent had Library Access in their discard. You could copy that 6 times (to set up your deck loop) then use the other 2 mimicry to copy other cards.

Then if you can keep going with your deck loop, you could even mimic 4 more cards.

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