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heychadwick

Clone Wars play looks very different

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Hi Guys,

I've been asleep a bit about a lot of the new Clone Wars news, but just read up a lot.  I feel like game play is going to be very different than current X-wing.  

First off is the speed of ships is very different, especially for Republic ships.  The ARC-170 is the only ship with a 3 hard turn (oh, the Naboo ship does).  V-19's have 3 banks as red.  It seems like the approach is going to be a lot slower for the Republic ships.   The ability to turn wont be there and there will be more K-turns and S-loops.

Separatists will be faster, but still have unusual dials.  I believe they will need many ships to make a good showing.

There are more difficulties in doing things with the older ships.  Purple actions requiring you to spend a Force to do something makes basic moves tougher.  Strain is new and worse than just Stress.  It seems like things are just harder with these ships.  I do admit that this does tend to make the old ships worse and new ships better, which it should with progress.  Will it reflect it in points, though?  Will these earlier ships be able to face off vs. regular 200 pt lists? I'm thinking points might be lower.

Firepower is a lot lower, but so too is hull and shields.  Droid ships with just 2 Agility and 3 Hull is rough.  Throw in they don't get a full Focus and only a Calculate and these guys will feel pain. V-19's have no shields, too, and only 2 Agility. 

Synergy seems to be key on both sides in this war.  Droids get all sorts of Calculate abilities to share around it and such.  Republic ships have all sorts of TL sharing, Battle Meditation,  and other abilities that all help each other out.  I feel like people will build lists with more than 3 Aces.  I see lists with a good number of ships involved. 

Droids can be killed easily, but also really want to put people in their bullseye arcs.  You probably want to swarm a but, but not everyone can put people in that narrow arc.  It looks interesting to try to spend your Calculate tokens on the ones in key positions to keep them alive.

The new ships seem like play will be significantly different and I'm really looking forward to it.  I think these 2 Factions will be a lot of fun to play against each other.  It does bring in questions about mixing eras.  Will it be viable?  I can already think of some cool story / missions that have old Vulture Droids activated and fighting later era ships. 

What other thoughts have people had?

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My biggest concern is that FFG will inappropriately cost the Jedi fighters. They’ll either be way too expensive for the chassis because Force tax, or they’ll be undercosted substantially for their initial release.

I feel the lack of 3 turn won’t hurt them quite as bad when dealing with multiple force charge pilots, as you can bank and then spend a force to boost (plus get your normal action). What will hurt them is whether they can do enough damage before fickle green dice end them. 

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What is Strain?  I saw one of the Clone pilots had an ability that gave a strain token as a cost, but I have no idea how else one gets a strain token or what it does.  Is this some faction-wide status that affects Republic and Separatists ships?


I'm afraid that with the Republic we'll rarely see Clones, and more often than not we'll just see two or three Jedi Aces with high Initiative and 2-3 Force Points each that basically play quite a bit like the Imp Aces of yore.  The clone ships just seem like Rebel snubfighters (heck, the ARC is a Rebel fighter), and that style of ship--predictable jouster with mediocre defense--just hasn't found a footing in 2.0 yet (be it Extended or Hyperspace) outside of the X-Wing, and at 2 Attack the V-19 is certainly no X-Wing.  While the Clones seem to be sporting some awesome support abilities that could help their Jedi friends out...  I'm not sure it will offset the downsides that come with leashing a nimble tricky ace to some plodding wingmen.  We'll see.

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8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Synergy seems to be key on both sides in this war.

This.

Put a Vulture Droid in a single-duel engagement up against a civil war era TIE/ln Fighter, or (worse yet) a cold war era TIE/fo Fighter, and the more modern ship will eat it for lunch - it's faster, harder to hit, and basically more capable in every way. Which feels right, given that you're basically looking at two full generations of progress, even in the relatively technology-static Star Wars universe.

What will make the difference (hopefully) is the massive amount of synergy options - Networked Calculations meaning that whilst you've only got a calculate token, not a focus token, you've got them available to whichever ship actually needs them rather than the one which generated them. Missiles, shared tokens, rerolls a-go-go.

"Howlrunner" has demonstrated since day 1 of the first edition how only a very small amount of synergy can make a relatively ineffectual ship terrifying....

 

1 minute ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

What is Strain?  I saw one of the Clone pilots had an ability that gave a strain token as a cost, but I have no idea how else one gets a strain token or what it does.  Is this some faction-wide status that affects Republic and Separatists ships?

Look at the separatist preview. Basically it's a new negative status token - if you have one, you roll one less die whilst defending, and you get rid of it either by defending or performing a blue move. It's not a faction-specific thing so much as a new thing - expect to see it in future non-faction-locked upgrades.

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Just now, ScummyRebel said:

My biggest concern is that FFG will inappropriately cost the Jedi fighters. They’ll either be way too expensive for the chassis because Force tax, or they’ll be undercosted substantially for their initial release.


Probably true, but given that this is FFG and that these Jedi Fighters are the flagship draw of the "new hotness" faction... which do you think is more likely?

I, for one, am dreading our "IMP ACES 2.0" jedi overlords until July...  🤣

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3 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Look at the separatist preview. Basically it's a new negative status token - if you have one, you roll one less die whilst defending, and you get rid of it either by defending or performing a blue move. It's not a faction-specific thing so much as a new thing - expect to see it in future non-faction-locked upgrades.


Ah, thanks.  The OP made it seem like it was some sort of faction-wide hindrance upon these older PT-era ships, when in reality it's just a new status token that a few new ships may use as a cost to their optional pilot or upgrade ability, and probably a few new upgrades will deal out strain  to enemy ships (regardless of their 'faction era).  Which really doesn't support the OP's point that these older PT Era ships are going to be behave in a particularly new way because they have to deal with "strain" given their old designs.

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12 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

The clone ships just seem like Rebel snubfighters (heck, the ARC is a Rebel fighter), and that style of ship--predictable jouster with mediocre defense--just hasn't found a footing in 2.0 yet (be it Extended or Hyperspace) outside of the X-Wing, and at 2 Attack the V-19 is certainly no X-Wing.  While the Clones seem to be sporting some awesome support abilities that could help their Jedi friends out...  I'm not sure it will offset the downsides that come with leashing a nimble tricky ace to some plodding wingmen.  We'll see.


Note that they benefit the Jedi or one another. A squad of missile-wielding clones can make up handily for the lack of 3-dice primaries with cheap ion or concussion missiles - by the time the missile racks are emptied, either you're dead or the enemy is.

9 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Probably true, but given that this is FFG and that these Jedi Fighters are the flagship draw of the "new hotness" faction... which do you think is more likely?

I, for one, am dreading our "IMP ACES 2.0" jedi overlords until July...  🤣

As a ship, I don't mind them too much - force-powered-autothrusters on what's essentially an A-wing or X-wing (depending on whether you take the 7b version or not) is powerful but not impossible to deal with (see Vader) if you can afford the warm bodies or toys to threaten it with - the real question will, inevitably, be the points cost.

It wouldn't surprise me to see the points get hoinked up in an early update if they prove to be too good - but given the treatment of Supernatural Reflexes, FFG cannot claim not to be aware of how powerful (and hence expensive) force-powered repositioning ability is, and (theoretically) the points value can be tweaked at any point up until the day the app is updated, so it's not like they are locked in to a value printed halfway through playtesting. So I'm hoping.

3 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Which really doesn't support the OP's point that these older PT Era ships are going to be behave in a particularly new way because they have to deal with "strain" given their old designs.

Yes and no. The Republic's faction ability (Devoted) specifically does generate strain to use, which means a clone-heavy squad is going to have to deal with it a lot, since the Devoted upgrade basically requires multiple Devoted ships to be worth taking. Separatist abilities using it seem to be more about straining the enemy.

The main thing that's going to change is the formations for flying clone squads; whilst most 'squad boosting' units have a range bubble (usually range 1, occasionally range 1-2), the two clone abilities (Devoted and Sinker's pilot ability) work on friendly ships in their side arc - so you want to fly in mutually supporting lines rather than dense 'blobs'.

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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Just now, LagJanson said:

It will be interesting times. Both factions so far feel very different than what we’ve seen. That said, expect people to pick 3 Jedi ships and run aces anyway...

I was thinking of doing that, until it occurred to me they’ll probably be too heavily priced to do that effectively. Especially if you want the config with +1 attack.

Now I’m not so sure... Part of me wants to try and force it and the other part says I should just fly what I own.

8 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Probably true, but given that this is FFG and that these Jedi Fighters are the flagship draw of the "new hotness" faction... which do you think is more likely?

I, for one, am dreading our "IMP ACES 2.0" jedi overlords until July...  🤣

I would normally agree with you, but Vader was priced pretty high. Same for Asajj. Both got a price drop after the readjustment.

 

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9 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I'm afraid that with the Republic we'll rarely see Clones, and more often than not we'll just see two or three Jedi Aces with high Initiative and 2-3 Force Points each that basically play quite a bit like the Imp Aces of yore.  The clone ships just seem like Rebel snubfighters (heck, the ARC is a Rebel fighter), and that style of ship--predictable jouster with mediocre defense--just hasn't found a footing in 2.0 yet (be it Extended or Hyperspace) outside of the X-Wing, and at 2 Attack the V-19 is certainly no X-Wing.  While the Clones seem to be sporting some awesome support abilities that could help their Jedi friends out...  I'm not sure it will offset the downsides that come with leashing a nimble tricky ace to some plodding wingmen.  We'll see.

I think the Clone ships have a lot going for them, as well as upgrades that help non-uniques.  The synergy of these ships works best when used with many ships, not just a couple.  I think these upgrades getting better in greater numbers.

As for the ARC-170, it's a beefy ship in a faction that doesn't have them.  Native 3 Attack and a rear arc is powerful as they are the only ships so far with them.  Also one of the best dials. 

6 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Put a Vulture Droid in a single-duel engagement up against a civil war era TIE/ln Fighter, or (worse yet) a cold war era TIE/fo Fighter, and the more modern ship will eat it for lunch - it's faster, harder to hit, and basically more capable in every way. Which feels right, given that you're basically looking at two full generations of progress, even in the relatively technology-static Star Wars universe.

Which makes me wonder about costs.  Surely a Vulture Droid wont be the same price as a Tie Fighter.   I also see the Energy Shell Charges as being worthwhile. 

6 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I, for one, am dreading our "IMP ACES 2.0" jedi overlords until July...  🤣

Aces have always been brought low by many generics NOT in a formation.   Block those Aces and they don't get to do all their fancy abilities.  It makes them a lot easier to take down.  I see that happening easier with more Clones or Droids.

Just now, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Ah, thanks.  The OP made it seem like it was some sort of faction-wide hindrance upon these older PT-era ships, when in reality it's just a new status token that a few new ships may use as a cost to their optional pilot or upgrade ability, and probably a few new upgrades will deal out strain  to enemy ships (regardless of their 'faction era).  Which really doesn't support the OP's point that these older PT Era ships are going to be behave in a particularly new way because they have to deal with "strain" given their old designs.

Well, the only Faction that can really get Strain are thr Clone War ones.  So, it is not necessarily faction specific as a rule set, but it's like saying Imperials can use Spare Parts Cannisters (if they ever had the ability to get an astromech).

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19 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Look at the separatist preview. Basically it's a new negative status token - if you have one, you roll one less die whilst defending, and you get rid of it either by defending or performing a blue move. It's not a faction-specific thing so much as a new thing - expect to see it in future non-faction-locked upgrades.

And we see that as soon as Wave 4 with the Resistance Transport having a Strain token in its spread, I'm guessing possibly from the new version of Autoblaster.

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3 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

I would normally agree with you, but Vader was priced pretty high. Same for Asajj. Both got a price drop after the readjustment.

True, but before Supernatural Reflexes got nerfed into oblivion, SNR-Vader was a beast in 2.0, and not a total slouch in Extended either despite his high cost.  Without access to SNR, Vader has become far less dominant.  Still, when I'm thinking of "new hotness powercreep" tendencies, I'm thinking of like Scum Falcon vs Rebel Falcon's starting cost... you could make a fully kitted out Scum Han that put Rebel Han to complete shame... and was cheaper than the naked Rebel Han.  Similarly, for another direct comparison, we can can look at how god-mode the Resistance A-Wings appeared to be on debut compared to how the Rebel A-Wings looked on their debut (Resistance A-Wing had more greens, more slots, better slots, and a rear arc option... for cheaper than their Rebel counterpart). 

I'm not saying it's intentional powercreep or that it's always the case that new stuff is more powerful than old or original stuff, but after 5 Years with FFG's X-Wing, if I had to wager whether a new flagship ship for the new hotness is going to be powercrept or DoA... I'm voting on powercrept every. single. time.

 

12 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Note that they benefit the Jedi or one another. A squad of missile-wielding clones can make up handily for the lack of 3-dice primaries with cheap ion or concussion missiles - by the time the missile racks are emptied, either you're dead or the enemy is.


That's fair, of course, but I've got tempered expectations. Clone swarms are going be low-to-meh PS, so getting those target locks (or the Bullseye arcs, if going for something like Prockets) is going to be as challenging for them as it is for all other low-PS generics that want to use ordnance (barring some Clone or Republic stuff that makes TL acquisition easier).  Similarly, the V-19s are almost as squishy as a Z-95, so there's a good chance that even if one of them can get a lock it may get PS-killed before it can shoot the ordnance.  I'm not saying Clones won't find a way to make it work, but 2.0 has certainly yet to reveal to us that any low-PS ordnance swarm ships like Torpedo Gray Y-Wings or Concussion Z-95s or Missile A-Wings can work.  The best such squads seem to do is when they forgo ordnance, like ICT/DT+VG Y-Wings or Crack+Heroic A-Wings that just rely on their primaries.  Plus, who even knows how reliable TL-dependent ordnance will be once Spare Parts canisters hit the scene... they seem like very tempting inclusions on ships like T70 aces, Deltas, and maybe even Luke or Wedge.

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49 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I'm afraid that with the Republic we'll rarely see Clones,

If you play me you'll be seeing Clones. I envision combined arms with Clones and Jedi. It depends on the synergies you want to leverage and how you like to fly. Your Jedi general leading and setting up his Clones. 

20 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Clone swarms are going be low-to-meh PS, so getting those target locks (or the Bullseye arcs, if going for something like Prockets) is going to be as challenging for them

I talked about this in the other thread. You put the sync console on a high I ship who moves last and gets some synergy from his brothers. You'll have a meh-PS swarm backed by an high-I Jedi or Clone like Oddball with your Sync consoles and an R3 astromech. And there is of course Battle Meditation at high I to give those ships who just focused because they were out of range for a lock the chance to target lock on the ships that moved into range at higher initiatives. Now you've got an ARC with pro-torps a focus and a lock. Maybe it won't work but it should be a blast to find out. 

 

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34 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Clone swarms are going be low-to-meh PS, so getting those target locks (or the Bullseye arcs, if going for something like Prockets) is going to be as challenging for them as it is for all other low-PS generics that want to use ordnance (barring some Clone or Republic stuff that makes TL acquisition easier).  Similarly, the V-19s are almost as squishy as a Z-95, so there's a good chance that even if one of them can get a lock it may get PS-killed before it can shoot the ordnance.  I'm not saying Clones won't find a way to make it work, but 2.0 has certainly yet to reveal to us that any low-PS ordnance swarm ships like Torpedo Gray Y-Wings or Concussion Z-95s or Missile A-Wings can work.  The best such squads seem to do is when they forgo ordnance, like ICT/DT+VG Y-Wings or Crack+Heroic A-Wings that just rely on their primaries.  Plus, who even knows how reliable TL-dependent ordnance will be once Spare Parts canisters hit the scene... they seem like very tempting inclusions on ships like T70 aces, Deltas, and maybe even Luke or Wedge.

Lots of ideas in one paragraph.... 

First off, there are some Clones with not bad Init (Oddball has I5) and you really only need one to start a TL chain, especially with R4 and SC.   That and not all missiles are R2-3. That means the first round isnt as important to get the TL's.

Next, while you say the V-19 is almost as squishy as a Headhunter, there are other upgrades and synergy that can keep these ships alive.  Things such as Dedication and Battle Meditation, as well as all sorts of special ability of pilots and Jedi, can have these guys last a lot longer than a Z-95.

Spare Parts Cannister doesnt affect things as bad as you might think.  It is one time use and is still an action that requires Init.  If you have a ship moving after it (very possible in a mixed squad) with SC, you can still share out the TL.  If not, it is one use only. 

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5 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I talked about this in the other thread. You put the sync console on a high I ship who moves last and gets some synergy from his brothers. You'll have a meh-PS swarm backed by an high-I Jedi or Clone like Oddball with your Sync consoles and an R3 astromech. And there is of course Battle Meditation at high I to give those ships who just focused because they were out of range for a lock the chance to target lock on the ships that moved into range at higher initiatives. Now you've got an ARC with pro-torps a focus and a lock. Maybe it won't work but it should be a blast to find out.



All fair points, and you may be right. 

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Cluster Missiles might be just the thing on the Clones, with Sinker giving mods so they can pass the lock down the chain without spending it. 2-3 clones throwing 12-18 dice and a flanker coming in isn't something a lot of squads want to face.

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Just now, FriendofYoda said:

Cluster Missiles might be just the thing on the Clones, with Sinker giving mods so they can pass the lock down the chain without spending it. 2-3 clones throwing 12-18 dice and a flanker coming in isn't something a lot of squads want to face.

Don't forget R3's to give multiple TL's around so that you can modify more than one Cluster Missile, too.  

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1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

Don't forget R3's to give multiple TL's around so that you can modify more than one Cluster Missile, too.  

I suppose I was assuming the V-19's won't have an Astro slot? But on the ARC getting extra locks from R3 then passing them around could be cool

 

With Dedicated in there to try and stop your alpha getting ps killed 

Edited by FriendofYoda

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3 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

What is Strain?

With as many people as have posted on and looked at this thread this hasn't been answered yet? Wow. Strain was explained in the "Power and Profit" Separatist article back on the 18th of last month. From the section where they spoil the "Treacherous" faction Talent: "while a strained ship defends, it rolls one fewer defense die. A strain token is removed after a strained ship defends, but it’s far better to remove the token by executing a blue maneuver before being targeted while at an extreme disadvantage."

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/1/18/power-and-profit/

And Treacherous so you have an idea what you might be running into:

swz29_a2_treacherous.png

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24 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

With as many people as have posted on and looked at this thread this hasn't been answered yet?

swz29_a2_treacherous.png

I thought it had been answered?

 

But omigosh I just noticed that Bellabub is blowing through a LAAT. I’ll have to keep that in mind the next time someone starts doubting if we’ll see those.

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47 minutes ago, FriendofYoda said:

I suppose I was assuming the V-19's won't have an Astro slot? But on the ARC getting extra locks from R3 then passing them around could be cool

....and I was assuming it did get one.  I went back through all the verbiage....and didn't see anything that said they do get Astromechs.  Hmmmm....maybe I am wrong?

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15 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

....and I was assuming it did get one.  I went back through all the verbiage....and didn't see anything that said they do get Astromechs.  Hmmmm....maybe I am wrong?

They don't in the series. The Delta-7's and ARC-170s do though.

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19 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

....and I was assuming it did get one.  I went back through all the verbiage....and didn't see anything that said they do get Astromechs.  Hmmmm....maybe I am wrong?

I don't think they'll get Astromechs. The V-19s have two pilots that get locks as bonuses though at I4 with Kickback and I5 with Odd Ball. Odd Ball also has Swoop to give him a red boost to get into position to grab a "free" lock. 

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My gut feeling is that both of the new factions are priced around so that it is meant to be fielded with a minimum of a mini swarm + a few elites.  Nothing that I have seen so far makes me think that I will see 3 high Init elites roaming the battlefield.  Their abilities are interesting, but not devastating like some other elites out there.  And overall... I'm perfectly fine with that!

 

There are reasons why pilots like Vader and Fenn are Init 6 with very strong offensive abilities; both of them fought during the clone wars, survived and kept fighting afterwards!

 

Overall, I will be curious to see how the new factions handle... my wallet is trembling when thinking about how many I might have to buy, however.

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