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Clone wars factions speculations

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Just now, Jabby said:

It’s not the height its the width + length. Its chunky beast.

I have one that’s a slightly smaller scale. It’s totally doable, though it will probably be pricey (more than the Occupier probably).

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About clone troopers, if we go by what Rex says about clone armour and weapons, they’ll have better dice than Stormtroopers.

Red defense with surge. Move 2, courage and health 1 (each). Black ranged attack, with surge, but the range could be 2 or 3 (I hope it’s 3 for the starter corpse unit).

They will also of course, have some ability unique to them.

The point cost will probably be the highest copse unit in the game though. Again if you go by what has been said, clone troopers were frequently outnumbered, so having small numbers of highly trained troops fits.

 

As for the CIS, I hope they make a Battle Droid unit have 8 miniatures and you can include a heavy and an extra for 10 miniatures in a unit, but they have one health for two minis. Then you’d have a ton of them, but they get mulched easily.

 

Question is though, how will Jedi commanders be? Do you think all Jedi will get red defense dice? Will the generic Commanders be a padawan? And will a generic Jedi Knights be like a mini Luke? 

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11 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

About clone troopers, if we go by what Rex says about clone armour and weapons, they’ll have better dice than Stormtroopers.

Red defense with surge. Move 2, courage and health 1 (each). Black ranged attack, with surge, but the range could be 2 or 3 (I hope it’s 3 for the starter corpse unit).

They will also of course, have some ability unique to them.

The point cost will probably be the highest copse unit in the game though. Again if you go by what has been said, clone troopers were frequently outnumbered, so having small numbers of highly trained troops fits.

Red defense with surge on a corps unit would be insane.  I agree on everything else though.

I could see them having the Steady keyword to represent the fact that they were born and bred for war.

They would still be by far the most expensive corps unit but I agree that it would fit thematically.

Z-6 for the heavy weapon slot

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17 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@JediPartisan as Jabby pointed out, the issue isn't the height, its the length. The Occupier tank is 7.5 meters in length, and is on a new base, which is very long, leading to a very fast speed 1 move. The AT-TE is 22.02 meters long in canon, so would have an even longer speed 1 move.

You could do some kind of new movement template much like X-wing did for Epic ships.  Maybe the AT-TE can only turn 45 degrees when it moves or pivots, and to go forward you place a movement template in contact with it on the side of the base aligned with the front arc line, then slide the base froward until the template hits the rear arc line.  It would be pretty simple to implement.

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4 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Red defense with surge on a corps unit would be insane.  I agree on everything else though.

I could see them having the Steady keyword to represent the fact that they were born and bred for war.

They would still be by far the most expensive corps unit but I agree that it would fit thematically.

Z-6 for the heavy weapon slot

The only reason I say red defense die with surge, is that many references are made to how bad stormtrooper armour is by comparison.

In both the live action and animated we see Stormtroopers fold as soon as they are hit, where Rex is hit at least three times, one of which was serious and each time it was remarked that the armour saved him. I do agree that would be insane good, but I’m thinking no one will have much more than three such corpse units in their army unless their army is just all corpse units, cause they can’t afford them anyway.

But I guess we’ll see soon enough... ok, it doesn’t seem soon. I hate waiting and apparently so does everyone else or there wouldn’t be so many threads like this.😜🤪😉

Edited by JediPartisan

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30 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

The only reason I say red defense die with surge, is that many references are made to how bad stormtrooper armour is by comparison.

In both the live action and animated we see Stormtroopers fold as soon as they are hit, where Rex is hit at least three times, one of which was serious and each time it was remarked that the armour saved him. I do agree that would be insane good, but I’m thinking no one will have much more than three such corpse units in their army unless their army is just all corpse units, cause they can’t afford them anyway.

But I guess we’ll see soon enough... ok, it doesn’t seem soon. I hate waiting and apparently so does everyone else or there wouldn’t be so many threads like this.😜🤪😉

Yeah, makes sense, but jeez each unit would be almost as much as Death Troopers.  Maybe have phase 1 clone troopers be no surge and phase 2 be surge?

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3 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

You could do some kind of new movement template much like X-wing did for Epic ships.  Maybe the AT-TE can only turn 45 degrees when it moves or pivots, and to go forward you place a movement template in contact with it on the side of the base aligned with the front arc line, then slide the base froward until the template hits the rear arc line.  It would be pretty simple to implement.

Yes, but Epic play is outside of normal standard play, and the main goal of Legion's rules seems to be simplicity, even at the cost of sense (for instance T-47 overhang rule). So while it is possible to add a new way to move, it is unlikely that such rules would become part of the core game. We are also talking about a model that in scale would cover a very significant portion of the battlefield, making movement difficult on a board with any terrain that is impassible for ground vehicles (without special rules for it), and that would even fit in many deployment zones without facing sideways, not to mention what the points would have to be on a model accurately reflect in the number of weapons on an AT-TE. This all points to the model likely being limited to an "Epic" version of Legion, if/when released, which is unlikely to be anytime soon, and definitely unlikely before the AT-AT which has similar difficulties.

 

Edited by Caimheul1313
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12 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Yes, but Epic play is outside of normal standard play, and the main goal of Legion's rules seems to be simplicity, even at the cost of sense (for instance T-47 overhang rule).

Just letting it overhang would be simpler than moving it back and rolling damage.

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15 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

The only reason I say red defense die with surge, is that many references are made to how bad stormtrooper armour is by comparison.

In both the live action and animated we see Stormtroopers fold as soon as they are hit, where Rex is hit at least three times, one of which was serious and each time it was remarked that the armour saved him. I do agree that would be insane good, but I’m thinking no one will have much more than three such corpse units in their army unless their army is just all corpse units, cause they can’t afford them anyway.

But I guess we’ll see soon enough... ok, it doesn’t seem soon. I hate waiting and apparently so does everyone else or there wouldn’t be so many threads like this.😜🤪😉

Okay..  just an equal dose of reality and conjecture here:

in terms of how effective stormtrooper armour is; when we see one hit, yes they go down.  If you were wearing a bullet proof vest and get shot, if it doesn't kill you will you keep standing?   We have evidence on screen of just how much force a blaster bolt imparts.  Look at a new hope during the escspe from Mos Eisley.  Look at the impact of Boba’s blaster on the wall by Luke in Empire.   The fact that a stormtrooper is dropped doesn't equate to being killed. 

As for Rex, heck every major character in Star Wars and most fiction, they have what I like to call plot armour - which is impervious to all things except enhancing the drama of a story. Rex being wounded was important to that story, which is why it happened.   Otherwise the heroes of the story can and do things that would make most people collapse. Rex also has Arc Trooper Armour which may be surdier.

As for the game, the clones were better trained than the stormtroopers who were ususlly enlisted (or conscripted)  from planetary populations.  

As such, a red defense and a black attack could be possible.  Though two White attack is just as viable, but in either case, a higher cost for each corps unit.

A couple other things to factor in; when comparing the effectiveness of trooper armour, don't use major characters in the argument, as noted above.  We see just as many, and likely many more clones felled from blaster bolts from B1 droids than we ever see stormtroopers.   

In regards to the two white dice, the clones were created to deal with the seperatist army.  They have weapons to take the fragile foes down, but they often have trouble with any other type of troop (like on Umbara).   So if we factor in droids having white defense (or no defense as I've posted above) two white dice is not bad.  We know veers has a e-11 with two white.  While this is possibly modified, I think it far more likely for him to have better training.

So, red defense, two white attack will still make a better quality troop than the stormtrooper.  I would also make them have, perhaps, a higher morale of 2, 

surge to hit seems fair, as well as Disciplined 1.  

To me, that makes a decent clone trooper.   They will, of course, cost more.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Okay..  just an equal dose of reality and conjecture here:

in terms of how effective stormtrooper armour is; when we see one hit, yes they go down.  If you were wearing a bullet proof vest and get shot, if it doesn't kill you will you keep standing? 

Yeah this has gone around and around on various SW boards over the years. An awful lot of real-world armor isn't/wasn't supposed to keep you in the fight if you took a direct hit from a military grade weapon with intention behind it.

In that case it is/was just supposed to keep you out of the morgue.

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2 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Okay..  just an equal dose of reality and conjecture here:

The issue with citing real world examples is: Star Wars isn't reality, it's not even science fiction, it's more akin to "science fantasy." As you touch upon when you mention plot armour, the effectiveness of weaponry and armour in Star Wars depends strongly upon who is being attacked, and how relevant they are to later plot developments. Random person wearing a Stormtrooper chest piece? Probably dead if they don't have anything more to do in the story. Princess Leia with no armour? Just a minor graze in the shoulder. 

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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The issue with citing real world examples is: Star Wars isn't reality, it's not even science fiction, it's more akin to "science fantasy." As you touch upon when you mention plot armour, the effectiveness of weaponry and armour in Star Wars depends strongly upon who is being attacked, and how relevant they are to later plot developments. Random person wearing a Stormtrooper chest piece? Probably dead if they don't have anything more to do in the story. Princess Leia with no armour? Just a minor graze in the shoulder. 

It immediately becomes an issue when you want to assign "points costs" to both. This is among my main reasons for not liking movie heroes. Plot armor is beyond the scope of the game, much like actual statted out models of spaceships are outside the scope of the game.

Star Wars is not reality, but it intentionally wove threads of realism (to create subconscious familiarity) into the OT which was a huge aspect of its success. It's not surprising that fans want believability in a game of this space fairy tale.

I want the game to be fun, believable, easy to learn, and balanced. In more or less equal measures. Certain things (like movie heroes or vehicles) are very hard to hit all those bases with.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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32 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

It immediately becomes an issue when you want to assign "points costs" to both. This is among my main reasons for not liking movie heroes. Plot armor is beyond the scope of the game, much like actual statted out models of spaceships are outside the scope of the game.

Star Wars is not reality, but it intentionally wove threads of realism (to create subconscious familiarity) into the OT which was a huge aspect of its success. It's not surprising that fans want believability in a game of this space fairy tale.

I want the game to be fun, believable, easy to learn, and balanced. In more or less equal measures. Certain things (like movie heroes or vehicles) are very hard to hit all those bases with.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't want realism, just that what is "realistic," "canon," and "balanced for game purposes" will not necessarily align. What I want most out of a game is some reasonable combination of "balanced flavour," sacrificing some flavour in order to achieve a balanced game. The "plot armour" is represented by characters having multiple wounds, or special abilities with associated point values.

I was primarily indicating that the effectiveness of Star Wars weapons/armour/shields varies depending on the scene of the film/author. Sometimes we are shown shielded fighters take multiple hits with little effect, other times the ship is destroyed by a single volley (without there being a chance for the craft to have taken damage earlier). Sometimes Stormtrooper/Clone Trooper armour works, and sometimes it doesn't, depending on what's necessary for the story. For Legion, it seems that standard infantry models wearing light or no armour has a 1/3 save (white with surge), and infantry models with armour gets a 1/2 save (red no surge). Heroes in general follow this same guideline, with the exceptions of force users and Mandalorian armour.  

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B1 battle droids as basic infantry (stormtroopers)

B2 droids as heavy infantry (snowtroopers)

IG-100s as elite (royal guard)

Destroyers as heavy (E-web)

Asajj Ventress as an operative

General Grievous as a leader

 

Seems pretty straightforward to me... maybe a battle tank?

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If I were the designer, this is what I would do:

Clone Troopers - same stats as storm; except: range 4 on the long rifles (geonosis) with 1 white attack, range 3 on the short rifles (utapau) 1 black, no special rules.
(The desire here is to make a troop that is solid but not special forces good.)

Battle Droids - speed 2, white defence, no surges, armour 1 (yes really), range 3 blaster with white attack, may take 6-8 in unit.
(Cheap and dirty, but have the armour 1 keyword to make droids functionally different as an army. Maybe add bravery stat to have infantry with armour, don't see why that couldn't happen. Armour 1 would balance well with no surge white defence.)

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for the CIS starter:

2x Corps:

B1 battle droid:

42 points

7 minis

white attack melee-3

white defense

no surge

2 courage

speed 2

extra trooper upgrade:(they have an upgrade that adds 2 troopers for 12 points)

grenade upgrade

Keyword:

Battle droid: This unit ignores the effects of suppression tokens

Support:

STAP: Similar to the imperial speeder bike

Commander:

Grievous:

190ish points

attacks:

hold out blaster: Range 1-2 red black

lightsaber: Melee 6 white

pierce, impact

lightsaber: Melee 6 white

pierce, impact

surge to hit

speed 2

health 7

courage 2

upgrades:

Extra weapon: Comes with 2 extra lightsabers

Extra weapon

key words:

Arsenal 4

Battle droid: This unit ignores the effects of suppression tokens

 

followed by

Corps:

B2

Support:

Droidekas

Dwarf spider droids

Special Forces:

IG 1000

Buzz droid

Heavy:

crab droid

AAT

Vulture Droid

Operatives:

Jango Fett

Ventress

Maul (i know not part of the CIS but he is so iconic)

Commanders:

Duku

Palpatine 

Kalani

tactical droid

...

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm betting we get Clone Commandos as a GAR special forces option.  Both weapons team or full squad, with the full squad having two regular commandos and two personnel slots.  DC-17 rifle on the unit and sniper/grenade launcher options on an armament card.  Demolitions expert, plus two heavy weapons - maybe the Tradoshan concussion rifle for one, not sure on the other.  Make them very expensive but also a very flexible unit.

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22 hours ago, jcmonson said:

Grievous:

190ish points

attacks:

hold out blaster: Range 1-2 red black

lightsaber: Melee 6 white

 pierce, impact

lightsaber: Melee 6 white

pierce, impact

surge to hit

speed 2

health 7

courage 2

upgrades:

Extra weapon: Comes with 2 extra lightsabers

Extra weapon

 key words:

Arsenal 4

 Battle droid: This unit ignores the effects of suppression tokens

I think this is way too complicated, for all his lightsabers, and doesn't really show how deadly he should be.

He never used a hold out to my knowledge, just a regular blaster rifle.   

Assuming B1 rifles are one white, I’d give his two white, similar to Veers.

as to the lightsaber(s), 6 black is far more fitting (he could spar with Dooku and defeated numerous Jedi Knights) with impact, and Pierce.  But to represent his spinning/multiple blades I'd give it Surpressive as a keyword too.   The reasoning is  thematic, most probably got tired fighting him, and couldn't react to his attacks as he overwhelmed them.   Game wise, adding supression does this as if it gets high enough, the opponent(s) will only get one action.  

Greivous was also very fast and nimble.   I would honestly give him expert climber AND nimble.

He was a general, so two command upgrades and a gear seems fitting.  

Morale needs to be 4.   Yes we see him cower, but really only when his minions are defeated.  

This leads me to think a command upgrade that increases the generals morale based on  how many Corps units are in range 1, to a maximum of 2, I would think.  This COULD facilitate a lower morale for Greivous, as he usually only runs when his army/troops are defeated.  Call this upgraded Bolstered by Numbers and the title thematically works for members of the Trade Federation and Banking clan.  

 

Also, the battle droid keyword makes no sense, as it allows you to ignore supression tokens, so why not give it the “—“ like Darth Vader?   The effects are reduced action/panic, increased cover.   So that keyword is needlessly verbose when the above dash already does that.   It also doesn't fit his character then, as Grievous always runs from the heroes, which you wanted to emulate with the morale of 2.  If this is the intent, then why would he ignore supression effects?   

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19 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I think this is way too complicated, for all his lightsabers, and doesn't really show how deadly he should be.

He never used a hold out to my knowledge, just a regular blaster rifle.   

Assuming B1 rifles are one white, I’d give his two white, similar to Veers.

as to the lightsaber(s), 6 black is far more fitting (he could spar with Dooku and defeated numerous Jedi Knights) with impact, and Pierce.  But to represent his spinning/multiple blades I'd give it Surpressive as a keyword too.   The reasoning is  thematic, most probably got tired fighting him, and couldn't react to his attacks as he overwhelmed them.   Game wise, adding supression does this as if it gets high enough, the opponent(s) will only get one action.  

Greivous was also very fast and nimble.   I would honestly give him expert climber AND nimble.

He was a general, so two command upgrades and a gear seems fitting.  

Morale needs to be 4.   Yes we see him cower, but really only when his minions are defeated.  

This leads me to think a command upgrade that increases the generals morale based on  how many Corps units are in range 1, to a maximum of 2, I would think.  This COULD facilitate a lower morale for Greivous, as he usually only runs when his army/troops are defeated.  Call this upgraded Bolstered by Numbers and the title thematically works for members of the Trade Federation and Banking clan.  

 

Also, the battle droid keyword makes no sense, as it allows you to ignore supression tokens, so why not give it the “—“ like Darth Vader?   The effects are reduced action/panic, increased cover.   So that keyword is needlessly verbose when the above dash already does that.   It also doesn't fit his character then, as Grievous always runs from the heroes, which you wanted to emulate with the morale of 2.  If this is the intent, then why would he ignore supression effects?   

The difference between Darth Vaders "-" and the battle droid key word is you would still gain suppression tokens.  The effect of suppression tokens is you lose one action and gain one level of cover.  A panic token is assigned when the number of suppression tokens your unit has is equal to or greater than twice your courage.  This allows you to still panic and try and run, but until then fight at full capacity and a little reckless.  That was also the idea behind having a low courage.  With 4 courage he would almost never panic as stacking 8 suppression tokens seems excessive.  From the movies he seems to have self preservation in mind and whenever he gets overwhelmed he runs.  It doesn't seem likely that he would come under fire from multiple squads an not retreat to get a better position.  Having a courage of 3 might be better

 

I agree about expert climber and nimble.

 

The reason I gave the sabers all white is the potential to roll 24 dice.  I didn't want to turn him into a 1 hit kill anything out there kinda thing.  I also hope when the do give home to us that they give him the pose with the 4 sabers, and given that he uses 4 onscreen.  I like the idea of adding suppressive to them as well.

 

as for the hold out that was from his final battle with obi Wan, though i can't remember where the blaster comes from, it doesn't seem likely that obi Wan brought it.

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3 hours ago, jcmonson said:

The difference between Darth Vaders "-" and the battle droid key word is you would still gain suppression tokens.  The effect of suppression tokens is you lose one action and gain one level of cover.  A panic token is assigned when the number of suppression tokens your unit has is equal to or greater than twice your courage.  This allows you to still panic and try and run, but until then fight at full capacity and a little reckless.  That was also the idea behind having a low courage.  With 4 courage he would almost never panic as stacking 8 suppression tokens seems excessive.  From the movies he seems to have self preservation in mind and whenever he gets overwhelmed he runs.  It doesn't seem likely that he would come under fire from multiple squads an not retreat to get a better position.  Having a courage of 3 might be better

 

I agree about expert climber and nimble.

 

The reason I gave the sabers all white is the potential to roll 24 dice.  I didn't want to turn him into a 1 hit kill anything out there kinda thing.  I also hope when the do give home to us that they give him the pose with the 4 sabers, and given that he uses 4 onscreen.  I like the idea of adding suppressive to them as well.

 

as for the hold out that was from his final battle with obi Wan, though i can't remember where the blaster comes from, it doesn't seem likely that obi Wan brought it.

Panic is one of the effects of suppression tokens, so it would mean they would do absolutely nothing. You might want to rewrite that rule, lol.

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