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JJH_BATMAN

Who uses crit tokens?

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3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

That's why you have three numbers in addition to the lock token.  Two go on the ship, and one can go with the ship card!

Their ships. Not mine. Mine have blue tokens so it's really easy for both players. I can't see their ship cards at all unless I switch my glasses - and then I can't see mine!

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15 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I'm not sure that's quite the same thing, since a Focus action doesn't leave you with a very prominent, very obvious, face-up card on top of your ship card.

<snip>

Numerous ship and card abilities require or interact with Focus tokens, so I don't see it being different at all.

Bottom line it's easier to put out a crit token, and be reminded of a crit, than it is to forget about a crit interaction that might lose you a ship, or inconvenience everyone by rewinding.

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52 minutes ago, stuffedskullcat said:

Numerous ship and card abilities require or interact with Focus tokens, so I don't see it being different at all.

Bottom line it's easier to put out a crit token, and be reminded of a crit, than it is to forget about a crit interaction that might lose you a ship, or inconvenience everyone by rewinding.

What I'm saying is that a Focus token is the indicator that a ship is Focused and can do actions accordingly.  The obvious, face-up damage cards are indicators of critical damage already.  The crit token is a secondary, backup indicator.  

In other words, if you remove the Focus token, there's nothing but memory to say whether or not the ship is Focused.  If you remove the crit token, you can still look at the damage cards and see plainly if any are crits.  They may be useful, but hardly as crucial as the other tokens.

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1 hour ago, stuffedskullcat said:

<looks at Star Wars X-Wing Rulebook page 9 entry titled "Critical Damage Markers", throws hands up, walks away>

Thanks for the reference, but I'm not sure what that has to do with our discussion...

I'm sorry, but to me it's like if FFG made a Focus Reminder Marker, with instructions, "After placing a Focus token near your ship, place a Focus Reminder Marker as well to remind players that the ship has a Focus token."  The more I think about it, the less sense these markers make.

Edited by JJ48

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I've just read two and a half pages of discussion about people's preferences pertaining to whether or not to ignore a rule of the game.

What other rules of the game are up to the whim of the individual players? Maybe I have been playing X-Wing all wrong this whole time...

Edited by RoosterOnAWire

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6 minutes ago, RoosterOnAWire said:

I've just read two and a half pages of discussion about people's preferences pertaining to whether or not to ignore a rule of the game.

What other rules of the game are up to the whim of the individual players? Maybe I have been playing X-Wing all wrong this whole time...

First of all, yeah, games are like that.  Different areas have different house rules.

Moreover, I'm curious whether it actually is a rule.  There's only a single, easily-missable blurb in the rulebook, no mention at all in the Rules Reference that I could find, and as far as I can tell it's just a reminder for information that is already on the table in other locations, anyway.

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When I originally posted this topic, I thought,"hmmmm, this would be a fun, not very serious discussion, maybe I'll get a few replies." Not using crit tokens is kind of a joke in the x-wing community (at least in my experience).

Three pages later and it's a serious, heated discussion. Odd.

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I feel like the document would be called something else if it wasn't "Rules".

They are reminders to both players about the game state. If I see people not using them at events I officiate, I will remind them to do so. Not using them creates all sorts of irreversible illegal game states because players forgot them, and invites abuse in worst cases - and I like to avoid bad feels at events people have paid a lot of money to attend and have a good, fair experience at.  People will do what they want in their local game stores or playing at home, of course, but playing without them creates bad habits, and when those bad habits creep into System Opens and Hyperspace Trials where the stakes are higher, it's an issue. 

More enforcement of them within the RRG damage section would be helpful, though, without a doubt. In fact, I'll go submit that suggestion - thanks.

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32 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

First of all, yeah, games are like that.  Different areas have different house rules.

Moreover, I'm curious whether it actually is a rule.  There's only a single, easily-missable blurb in the rulebook, no mention at all in the Rules Reference that I could find, and as far as I can tell it's just a reminder for information that is already on the table in other locations, anyway.

Sooooo....the other posts from people talking about forgetting about crits, thus disrupting the game offers no hint as to why people use the tokens or why the rules might be in place for their use?

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3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Sooooo....the other posts from people talking about forgetting about crits, thus disrupting the game offers no hint as to why people use the tokens or why the rules might be in place for their use?

Exactly.  The damage cards are already on the board in plain view to both players.  If people can forget about crits with the actual cards staring them in the face, they will forget about them even with tokens.  I honestly don't understand how they are not considered redundant.

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3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Exactly.  The damage cards are already on the board in plain view to both players.  If people can forget about crits with the actual cards staring them in the face, they will forget about them even with tokens.  I honestly don't understand how they are not considered redundant.

Because there is a difference between “on the board” and “on the mat” for some people. And considering how many people are talking about how useful they are, your hypothesis of “they’ll forget with the token too” is misguided. Perhaps you are letting your own preferences get in the way of understanding how some other people work?

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8 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Because there is a difference between “on the board” and “on the mat” for some people.

Then why don't we also have Torpedo Markers or Astromech Markers to remind players that ships may have upgrades that affect the game?  I'm sure you're right and some people differentiate between the mat and the rest of the board, but it boggles the mind that anyone could actually play like that.

...or are there such markers, and I missed another footnote in the rules?

Edited by JJ48

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10 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Then why don't we also have Torpedo Markers or Astromech Markers to remind players that ships may have upgrades that affect the game?  I'm sure you're right and some people differentiate between the mat and the rest of the board, but it boggles the mind that anyone could actually play like that.

Because torpedos and astros are there from the beginning. Built in. You don't start the game with a crit and which ever you pull is but one of many different options in the deck. It's a variable change to a list that isn't always a factor.

I'm curious why this boggles you mind. You appear not to need them, so good for you. But is it clear from this thread that not everyone is like that. What is hard to understand about that? 

Edited by SabineKey

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7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Then why don't we also have Torpedo Markers or Astromech Markers to remind players that ships may have upgrades that affect the game?  I'm sure you're right and some people differentiate between the mat and the rest of the board, but it boggles the mind that anyone could actually play like that.

...or are there such markers, and I missed another footnote in the rules?

Those effects are constant. Crits are game-changing effects. And I don't see how that can boggle you mind, not everything is easily visible on your side of the board.

 

Just use the darn crit tokens people. It's not that difficult.

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1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

Because torpedos and astros are there from the beginning. Built in. You don't start the game with a crit and which ever you pull is but one of many different options in the deck. It's a variable change to a list that isn't a constant. 

I'm curious why this boggles you mind. You appear not to need them, so good for you. But is it clear from this thread that not everyone is like that. What is hard to understand about that? 

I just want to figure out why.  I had never even heard of these tokens until this thread.  I asked what they were, and it took nearly a page to get an answer, amid many, many posts about how vital they are and how they're the only thing preventing the game from descending into anarchy, and how anyone who doesn't use them is clearly trying to drag the game into chaos.  They seemed redundant to me, so I asked how they're different from the information already on the board.  People "answered" by repeating how great they are and not actually addressing the question, and getting upset that I had the gall to suggest that it's possible to look at more of the board state than just the models and tokens.

5 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

not everything is easily visible on your side of the board.

Face-down card (roughly):
swz_hit.jpg

Face-up card:

prm20_damage_deck_promo_x-wing_eng_18.pn

Even across the board, I would think black/red should be pretty easily distinguishable from white.

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2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I just want to figure out why.  I had never even heard of these tokens until this thread.  I asked what they were, and it took nearly a page to get an answer, amid many, many posts about how vital they are and how they're the only thing preventing the game from descending into anarchy, and how anyone who doesn't use them is clearly trying to drag the game into chaos.  They seemed redundant to me, so I asked how they're different from the information already on the board.  People "answered" by repeating how great they are and not actually addressing the question, and getting upset that I had the gall to suggest that it's possible to look at more of the board state than just the models and tokens.

Face-down card (roughly):
swz_hit.jpg

Face-up card:

prm20_damage_deck_promo_x-wing_eng_18.pn

Even across the board, I would think black/red should be pretty easily distinguishable from white.

And I honestly think if you reread the posts, even the ones just saying how vital they are, with an open mind, you will be closer to an answer then you currently are.

If you are simply looking for answers, why are you still trying to prove they are redundant?

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1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

And I honestly think if you reread the posts, even the ones just saying how vital they are, with an open mind, you will be closer to an answer then you currently are.

If you are simply looking for answers, why are you still trying to prove they are redundant?

Because no one's actually addressed that point beyond saying, "People are too lazy to look at the entire board, so they need the information repeated for them.  But not all information; only some information, because other information they're able to take in and remember."  Is that it?  Is that really the entire answer?

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1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Because no one's actually addressed that point beyond saying, "People are too lazy to look at the entire board, so they need the information repeated for them.  But not all information; only some information, because other information they're able to take in and remember."  Is that it?  Is that really the entire answer?

Ah, so that's the answer you are projecting onto others. I thought as much. 

Again, maybe the problem in your understanding is not others, but your own preferences or bias. Why must it be laziness when honest forgetfulness, fatigue (causes can include such things as long day at work, long day at a tournament, and so on), and physical ailments (bad eye sight, for example) are just as plausible explanations, if not more so? 

 

And as for why you didn't get a direct answer, I think two things played a part.

First, this is the first I've heard of someone not knowing what a crit token was for. Just as you are confused as to why it exists, others are confused how you managed to get this far in the game without knowing about them. Weren't you curious what the strange tokens with the damage symbol on them were for in the different X-Wing products? Thus it can be a little "mind boggling" that someone has never seen it come up before.

Second comes from your online persona. You tend to inject humor into situations, which can be good, but also can get in the way of understanding. Thus, you first post of "what are crit tokens" was likely interpreted as an attempt at humor, especially with @JJH_BATMAN's opening post. Look at the reactions on your post. Most are "Laugh". Likely not for your ignorance, but for a perceived joke that wasn't intended. 

Once you put the two points together, maybe why getting a straight answer hasn't been forthcoming will be clearer. 

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27 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Because no one's actually addressed that point beyond saying, "People are too lazy to look at the entire board, so they need the information repeated for them.  But not all information; only some information, because other information they're able to take in and remember."  Is that it?  Is that really the entire answer?

JJ48 - Do you remember every upgrade card your opponent have in their squad and actively monitoring their usage?  The crit token is there to remind both parties that there is an active critical effect on a particular ship.           

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55 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Why must it be laziness when honest forgetfulness, fatigue (causes can include such things as long day at work, long day at a tournament, and so on), and physical ailments (bad eye sight, for example) are just as plausible explanations, if not more so? 

I guess because, as I've stated from the beginning, I don't see how having a token visible is going to help you remember something if having the card visible doesn't.

57 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Weren't you curious what the strange tokens with the damage symbol on them were for in the different X-Wing products?

Maybe?  I honestly don't remember my reaction to seeing them initially.  I do know that First Edition, with all its scenarios and whatnot, sort of conditioned me to just take tokens I didn't recognize and set them aside in case they were ever needed.  I know 2E doesn't really have those, but I guess I still had the habit of just setting aside unknown tokens until some card or game effect referenced them.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Thus, you first post of "what are crit tokens" was likely interpreted as an attempt at humor, especially with @JJH_BATMAN's opening post.

Yep, and I got that, and decided to let it pass.  But that's why I did restate the question further down.

1 hour ago, jpltanis said:

Do you remember every upgrade card your opponent have in their squad and actively monitoring their usage?

Shoot, I don't even remember every upgrade in my squad.  But, that's why I find it important to look at the cards in my play area and the opponent's, and not focus exclusively on the mat.

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1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Because no one's actually addressed that point beyond saying, "People are too lazy to look at the entire board, so they need the information repeated for them.  But not all information; only some information, because other information they're able to take in and remember."  Is that it?  Is that really the entire answer?

Okay, here goes: I use crit tokens so I can tell at a glance which ship has critical damage that affects it. Then I can look at my damage cards whilst setting my dial, and also when it defends or attacks. Remembering to do this in a single game or 2 of an evening is not hard without a token but almost impossible for me by game 6 at a tournament. I frequently fly swarms, so have quite a lot of identical ships on the mat.

I want my opponents to also use crit tokens because I literally cannot see their cards - I need to change my glasses or get them to bring their cards closer and there is generally a lack of space so damage cards get piled up on top of the ship cards, not spread out. I can't easily walk round because at big tournaments the tables tend to be in big rows and we would lose too much time walking around.

Does that help you?

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4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I guess because, as I've stated from the beginning, I don't see how having a token visible is going to help you remember something if having the card visible doesn't.

May I ask why me saying it helps me is not enough? People have said from the beginning that they find if helpful. I understand you are seeking knowledge, but you seem to be going about it like you are trying to discredit a personal affront.

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5 hours ago, Gilarius said:

I need to change my glasses

This would be my other thing. I can't read the things across the table. And then when a lot of stuff gets piled together...

I'm still a bit peevish about their having removed the stats from the ship tokens. Now all of that information is three feet away. Presbyopia is a pain in the butt. 

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7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Then why don't we also have Torpedo Markers or Astromech Markers to remind players that ships may have upgrades that affect the game?  I'm sure you're right and some people differentiate between the mat and the rest of the board, but it boggles the mind that anyone could actually play like that.

Just want to point out that after Saw's Renegades dropped, one of the most popular custom tokens became an s-foils token. 

And yes, I've seen people use those even when they have the flappy X-Wing models. A lot of people find visual aids on the mat next to the ship very useful. The key similarity between crits and s-foils is variability - both are not always active. The upgrades you have are always active, so there is less need to remind yourself of them when examining the game state of the board. That said, I used the example of s-foil tokens to indicate that some players might genuinely appreciate the existence of similar tracking tokens for certain upgrades.

6 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Because no one's actually addressed that point beyond saying, "People are too lazy to look at the entire board, so they need the information repeated for them.  But not all information; only some information, because other information they're able to take in and remember."  Is that it?  Is that really the entire answer?

I don't know why you're being so argumentative and resistant to this.

It's not laziness. There are many different reasons why people find the crit tokens useful. Not least of which is simply the vagaries of human memory. I can't tell you why I forget about face up crit cards in my card spread but remember when I see a token, but I do. This thread has demonstrated I'm far from the only one. 

I would guess that, in part, it's due to the tables where I play being only just 3'x3'. We have to cram ship and upgrade cards into the corners of the mats most of the time, and they get messy and disarrayed. 

The other aspect, I suppose, is the attention you give to various things and the timing of certain events. When I'm planning my dial, I'm not looking at my cards, I'm looking at the board. I'm working out what my ideal maneuver is based on my ship's position and the state of the board around it. Having a token next to that ship when I'm spending so much attention on it is a better reminder to me that I have to be careful about what I set on my dial if I've got Loose Stabilizer, for example. 

I guess on top of that, the token is just a prompt. My issue is apparently that I forget I have crits and don't look at my cards enough. Seeing that red token next to a ship starts the process in brain of "why is that there? Oh, you have a crit. What crit do you have? Better look at the cards. Yeah, you should probably remember to use your action to flip that". It's probably a pattern recognition thing. X-Wing is a game where the state of the game is displayed with tokens - everything else is a token, after all - so while playing my brain is actively looking for tokens to give me information. 

Crits are the only optional token produced in any sort of quantity. They're an option. They're one I, and apparently many others, have come to realise helps me if I take it. 

I really don't get why that isn't enough for you. You don't have to understand the thought process behind it, just accept the result that I find them better reminders than the cards arrayed out in front of me.

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