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drail14me

How Prominent are Triple Ups going to be for the next 6 months?

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17 minutes ago, Max Teranous said:

Nah, they have hard counters and other lists that can mess with them. You deffo need to consider them when building your own list tho, so they are meta impacting IMO, just not meta defining.

What are some hard counters?

 

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They'll be meta-warping.  If you intend to compete to the cut, whatever list you fly needs to be ale to withstand two 4-dice double-modded shots, maintain firepower, and have the maneuverability to get behind them.  Even if you've got that, and can leverage it, you're going to win at time, with lousy MoV, which will cost in seeding.

Alternately, things like Boba Fett crew and Resistance Han can really mess up their plans, but I don't think I've seen lists with those elements that can stand up to the rest of the top strong lists.

FWIW, I'm in a VASSAL tournament in which 24 players all independently declined to fly TripUps.  As @Brunas put it, we beat the Prisoner's Dilemma.  I wouldn't bet on that at big events, but at small events, you may find it more fun -- and relatively safe -- to just pretend the list doesn't exist.

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We saw it week one of our New Points Hyperspace league. The guy who ran it went undefeated that first night. Two days later, we had a Wave Championship. He didn't bring it, nor has he brought it back to league. "Effective, but boring to play," he said. And now that everyone is prepping for it, he's gone back to 4 X-Wings and is still winning with something that's more fun for both players.

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43 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I bet at least one pops up in the finals at Worlds if FFG doesn't break the combo some how.

The problem is, though, the First Order desperately needs this ship. If they cost it too steeply then the faction takes too hard of a hit to play. The TIE FO's are okay, but not great. And SF and Silencers need a support tank. But if you drive up the cost too much, then you won't be able to fit Aces like Kylo and/or QD with an Upsilon.

I think they should start by changing the cost of hyperspace tracking data, and possibly make it a unique upgrade and go from there.

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Just now, kempokid said:

The problem is, though, the First Order desperately needs this ship. If they cost it too steeply then the faction takes too hard of a hit to play. The TIE FO's are okay, but not great. And SF and Silencers need a support tank. But if you drive up the cost too much, then you won't be able to fit Aces like Kylo and/or QD with an Upsilon.

I think they should start by changing the cost of hyperspace tracking data, and possibly make it a unique upgrade and go from there.

They don't have to touch ship itself much, they really just need to do something about the Dormitz/Hyperspace Tracking Data combo (as you mentioned). A potent support ship is fine, a friggin pair of Mauses that start the game right in your squad's face with another buffing them isn't. The combo is the problem, not the Upsilon itself.

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1 hour ago, drail14me said:

What are some hard counters?

 

As Jeff said, but there’s also stuff that outjousts them. Old Teroch plus 3 VTG ships will likely take out an Upsilon round 1, with OT dying in return - but you're up on MoV and have more flexible firepower to win the fight at that point.

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30 minutes ago, kempokid said:

The problem is, though, the First Order desperately needs this ship. If they cost it too steeply then the faction takes too hard of a hit to play. The TIE FO's are okay, but not great. And SF and Silencers need a support tank. But if you drive up the cost too much, then you won't be able to fit Aces like Kylo and/or QD with an Upsilon.

I think they should start by changing the cost of hyperspace tracking data, and possibly make it a unique upgrade and go from there.

Honestly, they don't have to touch any of the cards or their costs directly. Simply enforcing the technical meaning of the word "between" will go a long way to depowering the list. Hyperspace Tracking Data uses the phrase "choose a number between 0 and 6". The way it is being interpreted and how it is being used in an incredibly broken manner is that "between" is inclusive of 0 and 6, a simile to "from 0-6" as it is commonly used. The technical meaning excludes 0 and 6, I.E. "pick a number from 1-5". While it would push the I5 bid war even more, there would be allot more counter play/planning possible. Really as simple as FFG saying "Um, guys. You've been reading this wrong..." in the Official Rulings section.

Hyperspace Tracking Data

Edited by Hiemfire

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52 minutes ago, kempokid said:

The problem is, though, the First Order desperately needs this ship. If they cost it too steeply then the faction takes too hard of a hit to play. The TIE FO's are okay, but not great. And SF and Silencers need a support tank. But if you drive up the cost too much, then you won't be able to fit Aces like Kylo and/or QD with an Upsilon.

I think they should start by changing the cost of hyperspace tracking data, and possibly make it a unique upgrade and go from there.

100% this. I want those ships to be as cheap as they are so you can get them into a squadron.

I even think triple upsilon as a list type should be legal.

What needs to be reigned in, and what gives the current list its meta warping power, is the Hyperspace tracking data.

My solution? Either jack the price of the one upgrade card up significantly, or just limit the number of copies that can be brought into a list.

But leave the poor Ups alone. The chassis is not at fault for this. 

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39 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Simply enforcing the technical meaning of the word "between" will go a long way to depowering the list.

That's an amazing catch.  I would not be surprised to see this happen.

Are there any other (non-broken) cards that use the "between" language that would be affected?

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11 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That's an amazing catch.  I would not be surprised to see this happen.

Are there any other (non-broken) cards that use the "between" language that would be affected?

Might be but none that jump to mind.

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34 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That's an amazing catch.  I would not be surprised to see this happen.

Are there any other (non-broken) cards that use the "between" language that would be affected?

Surprisingly, there are no other usages of "between" on any card in xwing outside of flavor text.

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I dunno. I suppose the technical definition excludes 0 and 6, but any number generator you find will select the low and high values so it’s really up to FFG how they want to enforce that.

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Tripsilons is just a simple, interesting and one trick pony list, it’s fine. There are other triple lists that will be the REAL meta problem. 

One? Triple Scruggies, yeah, they’ll be cancerous in a few weeks and everyone will deem Tripsilons as a happy list in contrast. 

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25 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Tripsilons is just a simple, interesting and one trick pony list, it’s fine. There are other triple lists that will be the REAL meta problem. 

One? Triple Scruggies, yeah, they’ll be cancerous in a few weeks and everyone will deem Tripsilons as a happy list in contrast. 

Like with Fangs, don't face hug them and stay out of range 1 if you're likely to end up front arc. They're I2 with no special positioning ability (the closest they have is a red barrel roll), they can be out maneuvered.

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Id like to see an official rule that Dormitz specifically cannot deploy ships onto rocks. That would hopefully be enough to add a tiny bit more counter play pre-list building. Maybe not enough though.

Dormitz specifically is the problem. Upsilons and Hyper tracking in general are fine and very well balanced. 

Collison Detector is stupid but not the main reason this list exists as an HP gate check to the rest of the field. 

Deal with Dormitz only. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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There are a number of ways this particular combo could be addressed:

A) Remove Hyperspace Tracking Data from the Hyperspace format.  (There are more viable answers to the list in extended.)

B) Errata HTD in some way.  Adding a dot or two in front of the name would probably work.

C) Errata Dormitz's ability.  Changing the 'at range 2' to 'within range 2' would go a long way, as would limiting the special deployment to one ship only.

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6 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

They don't have to touch ship itself much, they really just need to do something about the Dormitz/Hyperspace Tracking Data combo (as you mentioned). A potent support ship is fine, a friggin pair of Mauses that start the game right in your squad's face with another buffing them isn't. The combo is the problem, not the Upsilon itself.

Have HTD affect small base only?

Edited by DXCrazytrain

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2 minutes ago, DXCrazytrain said:

Have HTD affect small base only?

 

6 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Honestly, they don't have to touch any of the cards or their costs directly. Simply enforcing the technical meaning of the word "between" will go a long way to depowering the list. Hyperspace Tracking Data uses the phrase "choose a number between 0 and 6". The way it is being interpreted and how it is being used in an incredibly broken manner is that "between" is inclusive of 0 and 6, a simile to "from 0-6" as it is commonly used. The technical meaning excludes 0 and 6, I.E. "pick a number from 1-5". While it would push the I5 bid war even more, there would be allot more counter play/planning possible. Really as simple as FFG saying "Um, guys. You've been reading this wrong..." in the Official Rulings section.

^

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Lots of folks disagree with this "from excludes endpoints" take.  Any time someone does a list of stuff 'from A to Z' they're including A and Z.  Most folks if asked to guess a number from 1 to 10 will consider 1 and 10 as fair game.  There'd probably be other issues, folks in the rules subforum just looking to break things attempting to use such a ruling to say that an ability which works from Range 1-3 would only work at Range 2 now.

And, as noted, it wouldn't even work that well as a fix.  Init 5 is still dang high.  So a weak attempt at a solution--both linguistically and in game terms.

//

From discussion with friends, there are two things I'd consider.

1. Errata Dormitz to only work on Small and Medium ships.  I'd include Medium, just as future proofing, because why not?  Dormitz helping folks forward deploy is kinda a cool in theory, and it's almost surely fair if it isn't Upsilons.

2. Errata Hyperspace Tracking Data to one-per-list. This would force an actually-early deployment (none of this Init 5 fixes it BS) from pretty much the entire list, and prevent a few extra Evade tokens making an Upsilon even harder to kill.

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7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Lots of folks disagree with this "from excludes endpoints" take.  Any time someone does a list of stuff 'from A to Z' they're including A and Z.  Most folks if asked to guess a number from 1 to 10 will consider 1 and 10 as fair game.  There'd probably be other issues, folks in the rules subforum just looking to break things attempting to use such a ruling to say that an ability which works from Range 1-3 would only work at Range 2 now.

And, as noted, it wouldn't even work that well as a fix.  Init 5 is still dang high.  So a weak attempt at a solution--both linguistically and in game terms.

//

From discussion with friends, there are two things I'd consider.

1. Errata Dormitz to only work on Small and Medium ships.  I'd include Medium, just as future proofing, because why not?  Dormitz helping folks forward deploy is kinda a cool in theory, and it's almost surely fair if it isn't Upsilons.

2. Errata Hyperspace Tracking Data to one-per-list. This would force an actually-early deployment (none of this Init 5 fixes it BS) from pretty much the entire list, and prevent a few extra Evade tokens making an Upsilon even harder to kill.

HTD says "between" not from...

Hyperspace Tracking Data

Edited by Hiemfire
added card for ease of reference

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