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drail14me

How Prominent are Triple Ups going to be for the next 6 months?

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23 hours ago, Redblock said:

Tripple Ups list is all about abusing rule holes, unintentional rules holes

Thing is, this is NOT a new list. 3 Upsilons using hyperspace was available, and used (if a little obscure) in 1.0, and the exact same cards were reintroduced.

So whilst the improvements to both the Upsilon (access to reinforce) and hyperspace (it now triggers after everyone has deployed so you get a massed stack) are new, the squad itself isn't and whilst it can be considered overly powerful, I'm not convinced it's unintentional.

There isn't really a 'rules hole' you're exploiting in it; every upgrade is working 'as intended' and you're not using any of them to overrule the intended penalty of another (like using Roark to shoot before Han's 'no extra shots' rule comes into play).

 

Essentially, as @clanofwolves says, it's a boogie-man. You have to 'have a plan to deal with it', which isn't the same as 'have to build your list around it'.

  • Massed Veteran Turret Gunner Y-wings, or one of the many variations of the TIE swarm, can probably cope, because they expect to take a 'kill' before their normal initiative slot anyway and/or have the durability or the sheer number of warm bodies to take their lumps and keep coming (or Iden Versio, who can magically make a 4-hit attack disappear), throw out lots of damage in 1-2 damage 'droplets' that largely bypass reinforce.
  • Hyper-manoeuvrable squads, like RZ-2 A-wings, Afterburners-equipped TIE/sk Strikers, and TIE/vn Silencers, actually have enough speed and manoeuvrability to avoid those arcs of fire if they 'guess right', and for that matter the Silencer can probably take one 4-dice attack without catastrophic damage.
  • Fangs thrive in a face-to-face fight, and whilst it's a painful option, with Old Teroch to strip away the entire green stack, stand a decent chance of blowing straight through an Upsilon and out the other side.

The problem is something like the Trench Run crew. Even with S-foils closed, they're not quite manoeuvrable enough to avoid getting double-tapped, and even with Biggs & Selfless they're not quite tough enough to survive without the squad taking a real kicking, and with only 3 ships they can't afford to treat anyone - even Biggs- as truly expendable.

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See @Magnus Grendel you’re close to what I’ve been saying. There are things which  may be able to beat it, but they require you to list build specifically to it.

Oh, hey, you want to fly any Imperial list in Hyperspace that isn’t a TIE swarm? Well lol to you, auto lose. And even the TIE swarm isn’t a guarantee, it’s hugely dependent on dice variance in that initial engage. Doubly so if they have Phasma in the list, rendering the K-turn impossible.

And the double tap Y can do upwards of 10 damage on turn 1, and in exchange probably not lose a Y. But if you brought a support U along? It’s dead now.

What irks me is that it, like the worst of 1.0, closed off a wide volume of list building space. Entire ships are rendered inoperable competitively from it. It is a list that, if you bring the wrong things, cannot be beat by Tactics on the table.

That is why I am not ok with this list.

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4 hours ago, ahdaniels76 said:

I forgot about the double tap from same arc.  I thought it had to be separate arc facings, not separate weapon arcs.  

Oh how I wish ! (I am getting curb stomped by Y-wings)

While your interpretation is arguably within the realm of the nonsensical clusterfrack ambiguity that is the arc rules, they FAQ'd that it worked, specifically mentioning double tap out the front.

Edited by prauxim

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1 hour ago, millertime059 said:

There are things which  may be able to beat it, but they require you to list build specifically to it.

I would say the reverse; there are some list archetypes which I'm not sure can beat it. I suspect it's a smaller chunk of the Hyperspace-legal stuff than it might be.

That said, that's splitting hairs over degrees of bad, not saying that you're wrong.

  • Considering Imperials specifically:
    • Hyperspace with imperials basically IS the TIE swarm - either of TIE/sk, TIE/x1 , or TIE/ln. It is dice dependent but at the same time massed dice generally makes variance less of an issue, not more of one.
    • Any squad small enough to risk the "oh no, I lost a ship!" destroying your chances of winning is probably TIE/x1 aces, who can pull speed 5  or speed 5 bank with afterburners and focus/link/roll, so stand a fair chance of evading their attacker (trying to actually engage in that first turn is always a mistake, I think).
    • The most likely Imperial Ace in Hyperspace format is old Tall, Dark and Asthmatic, who - in addition to the theoretical option of supernatural reflexes if you're feeling flush - can place after Dormitz' wingmen if you have the larger bid.

Equally, compare it to triple initiative 6+ Proton Torpedoes, which also tended to do a pretty good job of 'erase a ship of your opponent's choice before it can do anything'.

A lot of it is going to come down to how hard it is to fight your squad with one ship lost. I'm not sure that renders any specific unit unworkable, but it does mean that deploy-as-a-tight-pack, synergy-heavy squads of medium fighters - i.e. the kind which Rebels X-wings tend to form - are going to catch the worst time of it. I've no real experience with a squad like that, so I don't know how I'd have to use it to make it work. I know how I want to fight these things with TIE/ln and TIE/sk. I'm not confident enough to figure out how I'd take T-65s or T-70s up against them.

1 hour ago, millertime059 said:

But if you brought a support U along? It’s dead now.

It's almost certainly on fire, but I think suggesting with certainty that the U-wing is dead is overstating matters or would require a significant degree of luck. 2 4-dice attacks can kill a U-wing, but only with 'perfect shots' - whilst getting 4 hits from 4 focus/locked attack dice isn't especially hard, doing so twice and an agility 2 ship failing to evade a single hit on either attack is relatively unlikely.

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13 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

It’s an interesting puzzle, and a boogie-man, it’s weirdly good for the game as it causes a stir, especially in the sensitive force-users. I kinda see it as the 2.0 version of triple Intel Agent Scouts. 

Triple intel scouts was a menace.

Also, im not sure that analogy works very well here.

 

And i'm not sure it's a very interesting puzzle (but that's more person-specific, I suppose).

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28 minutes ago, Blademaster72 said:

You want more then 3 ships and you must make piece with the fact you will loose a ship on opening engagement. Expect it embrace it but if you soldier on threw get behind them with other 3+ ships you can win. 

This is how I see its impact on the meta:

  • Bring Higher HP Count List ( Ship Count or Per Ship ) 
  • Bring Thing that can ignore damage round 1 ( Iden, Countdown, "Biggs" )
  • Bring Outlier Mobile Thing ( Silencer, Black One Poe ) - Least Reliable Option if Mobility is your only plan
  • Bring 1 Upsilon with Hyperspace Tracker to "normal" deploy your ships with a Focus/Evade Token Stack 
  • Bring something that steals the re-enforce or all tokens from 1 of the Upsilons ( Old T, Palob, Jam Action ) 
  • Bring something that can deploy behind the front line ( Han, Boba Crew, Dormitz ) 
  • Bring something with a 4+ pt Bid to place last at i6

Best bet as already described is probably to bring a list that can afford to lose something to the round 1 gut punch and still have enough mobile quality pieces left over to play the MOV game after.

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19 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

 

Best bet as already described is probably to bring a list that can afford to lose something to the round 1 gut punch and still have enough mobile quality pieces left over to play the MOV game after.

Worth restating. 

Basically, tripsilon is a bunch of feelsbadman that likely most 4 ship lists cant handle.

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16 hours ago, ahdaniels76 said:

Interesting.   Maybe.  Lots of hull, but limited firepower.  Takes 3 tokens to ionize a big ship.... I assume Tripsilons would go heavy on reinforce to avoid early ionization, but I guess the tokens stick around so eventually one gets ionized.  I'd love to see a match played out to see if the y-wings could pull it off.

Anything other than Y-wings?

5 A-wings work. Also, Zach Bart was able to steam roll Adam Kempers' UUU with his Poe, Nien, Lulo. Both are players significantly above the average skill level and this was in the semifinal of a Wave Championship.

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1 minute ago, player3010587 said:

5 A-wings work. Also, Zach Bart was able to steam roll Adam Kempers' UUU with his Poe, Nien, Lulo. Both are players significantly above the average skill level and this was in the semifinal of a Wave Championship.

Was it streamed? Sounds fun to watch!

 

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1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Equally, compare it to triple initiative 6+ Proton Torpedoes, which also tended to do a pretty good job of 'erase a ship of your opponent's choice before it can do anything'.

Which was also an issue, however offered far more counterplay. You could attempt range control, force it though rocks, block it, and rarely did it get multiple double modded shots off. 

Oh, and they also didn’t have 16hp each with two evades and a reinforce the first turn of the engagement. So you could kill one.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It's almost certainly on fire, but I think suggesting with certainty that the U-wing is dead is overstating matters or would require a significant degree of luck. 2 4-dice attacks can kill a U-wing, but only with 'perfect shots' - whilst getting 4 hits from 4 focus/locked attack dice isn't especially hard, doing so twice and an agility 2 ship failing to evade a single hit on either attack is relatively unlikely.

Well, not as unlikely as you think.

And here’s the thing, if it survives round 1, it will not survive round 2. See the problem is that the U-wing can’t get away. The Ups is faster, due to large base. And let’s take the best cSe scenario for the U, that you are at range 2, then what? There is no move you can make to get beyond the Upsilon. The 4 straight won’t guarantee it, in fact if they stop it’s almost impossible. It to end at range 1, unless you stop too. And if you are far enough to make sure that the 4 straight clears? Well guess what, that means you were at range 1, which means you face two five dice attacks.

No, the U-wing will die. If it doesn’t, it is solely because your opponent didn’t target it.

I do not believe I am overstating the case when I say that the X1 and U-wing are DOA in Hyperspace because of Trips.

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6 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Was it streamed? Sounds fun to watch!

 

Unfortunately not, and this was back in January! But it was fun to watch: the last 30 min or so was Adam trying to get his remaining Upsilon to swing its arc to catch something while Zach's girlfriend wondered aloud why the game is still going on.

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And let me be clear, I am so irritated by this specific list because the only things I was excited to fly in Hyperspace, namely the three named strikers and a Reaper, is negated by this. Because the only, only!, chance I have means I must include Afterburners. Which means naked generic Reaper at best.

Which means I lost at list building, on an otherwise fun and viable list. I am not ok with that.

And generic strikers are no good. The striker swarm is too easy to equalize for many other things, and if you have bad dice variance on the initial engagement, you have lost.

Plus Grey Squadron double tap Y’s are objectively better. Which sucks for me.

Between Tripsilons and double tap Y swarms I went from open minded about Hyperspace to actively opposed to its cuttent offerings.

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You all think so 1.0..... 

This is how we solve this without eratas etc.: 

1. Lower the cost of all Upsilons by 1-2 points, even Dormits. The Upsilon(s) have a mssive blindspot they cannot be expensive - this needs to happen.

And then with the power of 2.0, we:

2. Make the cost of Hyperspace Tracking dependent on the number of Upsilons in the list and if Dormits is in the list. 

 

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11 minutes ago, svelok said:

At what point does the prominence of Upsilons, Falcons, and maybe Decimators(?) in hyperspace make Conner Net good?

At 6 points for 1 charge to cause an effectively negligible single round effect if by some miracle they don't avoid it, that is hard locked to deploy via a 1 or 2 (in the unlikely case of the carrier having Skilled Bombardier) straight out the rear of a ship and cannot be regenerated by any means?  Good? Do you do standup?

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