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drail14me

How Prominent are Triple Ups going to be for the next 6 months?

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Tripple Ups list is all about abusing rule holes, unintentional rules holes. There was this list all about abusing rules holes before, called Dash Roark, remind me what happened to it?

Moral of story, triple ups is one post in rules forum from nonexistent, I suggest you save your money on buying Ups en masse, or you will be left like guys with triple Jumpmasters (well, its most likely same guys :D)

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Trip ups can be handled. The changes to advanced sensors priced it just so that all 3 ups cant be maximized in their efficiency. Now, with Spare parts, any ship with a droid and mod slot is effectively immune to its double modded alpha strike. toss in biggs and selfless, and you likely make it to turn 2 without losing a ship. 

 

not to mention resistance han and boba crew can play some placement shenanigans that force it either abandon the turn 1 alpha or allow your weirdly placed ship to solo the list.  

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5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:
  • Here you basically end up in a debate about whether you want the squad reduced in effectiveness or killed stone dead
    • If the former, increasing costs so as to prevent the Starkiller Base Pilots equipping collision detectors means that defensively deploying obstacles still provides you with a useful edge. That would need a net increase of 13 points across the squad.
    •  If the latter, you need to either increase the total points of the 'base layout' by 23 points such that you can't fit it into 200 points or else make Hyperspace Tracking Data unique, removing two critical components.
      • The latter option involves changing printed text, so is (hopefully) unlikely
  • Equally, one should consider knock-on effects; Dormitz' ability isn't going away, so what about Dormitz/Quickdraw/Midnight - that's less imposing but basically the same concept.
  • Personally, I'd up Dormitz to 64 - putting him on the same tier as Stridan and Cardinal and up the cost of Hyperspace Tracking Data by the same amount. That leaves the 'base' squad on 200 exactly - still an option, but without any dirty tricks other than its opening round.....which, let's be fair, is still a bloody good trick, but which can now be counterplayed partially in deployment - not of ships, but of obstacles. 

I was thinking about Hyperspace Tracking Data as unique the other day.  Put HTD on a single SBP, Dormitz places middle at Init 2.  Then Init 6 you can drop SBP and Quickdraw, not quite as perfectly as if Dormitz was also 6, but probably still pretty well placed.  Both SBP and QD will start Focus/Lock easily.  Dormitz position is worse for follow up, and QD probably has a bit less offense than a SBP, but it's probably not too far off, and if QD gets ignored, you'll have an actual endgame piece.

I just keep coming back to a preference for a Dormitz errata to rule out large ships.  I don't worry about QD/Midnight--"less imposing" is a good way to describe it.  Forward position isn't as much of a problem if it's a kill-able amount of HP, and a reasonable amount of red dice.  Any of the pieces seem fine on their own, with pretty much only the forward Upsilon as the issue.  I'd rather not nerf Dormitz or Hyperspace Tracking Data in general.

I guess I should be counted in the "kill this dead" side.  My opinion is that it's just an awkward and ugly thing to fly against for the majority of lists; a slightly lower win-rate doesn't necessarily change that.  I know there's not going to be a real and agreed upon definition of what "actually playing the game of X-Wing" would mean, but Triple Ups seems as far outside of that as I've seen.

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Maybe not practical, since FFG wants to sell as many copies of each ship as possible to those willing to buy them, but... what if the "A legal squad list contains between 2 and 8 ships from a single faction" limit from the Tournament Rules was refined a little? (Also, another use of "between X and Y", and it's clearly inclusive here.) Maybe based on ship base sizes and types? Maximum of 4 Medium-base ships of the same type and maximum of 2 Large-base ships of the same type.  Probably too limiting for most players I guess (even though those rules only apply to tournament/competitive play).

Edited by admat

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7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

When told to kick a ball between the posts you don't aim at the posts... Like I said technical meaning vs common usage.

This could go on all day long, but point the was made. Even if this was treated as choose between 1-5, starting at 5 with a hefty bid is going to allow this card to be abused against the majority of lists.

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The only realistic fix here is a change to HTD, either points, unique, and/or FAQlerification on 0-6 vs 1-5.

The FO isn't flown much, but I can tell you, the same as the other 10 people using the faction outside Tripsilons: if you raise the Upsilon in cost, especially Tavson, basically every other "viable" (and I don't use that word lightly) list the faction has is gone. The faction will be unplayable in any level of real competitive setting. 

The Upsilon isn't the problem. The combo of Dormitz and HTD is the issue. Adjust HTD. Not the ships.

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42 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Or Dormitz.

HTD is much less of an issue if those token stacked ships aren't on the opponent's side of the board turn 1.

This is the only place Dormitz is used.

The only reason the alpha is so destructive is the extra tokens from HTD allowing a TL action by the leading shuttles. Naked dice or a single focus or TL isn't nearly as scary. And those SBP's die much faster without the double evades on the first turn. 

If Dormitz were truly an issue you'd see him used in many more lists with swarms and high initiative alphas.

HTD is the problem. The Upsilons are just a convenient platform that highlight the issue. 

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12 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

What’s the best triple upsilon list. I wanna try it. 

I dont know what the best is, but we suspect collision detector is particularly good to remove any "rock strategy" people devise. And then phasma to stop k-turns behind it in an immediate joust.

This is what we use to practice against:

https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v5!h!238:185,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,111,-1:;288:185,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,112,-1:;288:185,-1,-1,-1,183,-1,-1,-1:&sn=Triple Ups&obs=

Triple Ups (199)

 

Lieutenant Dormitz — Upsilon-Class Command Shuttle 60
Hyperspace Tracking Data 2
Advanced Sensors 10
Ship Total: 72
Half Points: 36 Threshold: 6
   
Starkiller Base Pilot — Upsilon-Class Command Shuttle 56
Hyperspace Tracking Data 2
Collision Detector 6
Ship Total: 64
Half Points: 32 Threshold: 6
   
Starkiller Base Pilot — Upsilon-Class Command Shuttle 56
Hyperspace Tracking Data 2
Captain Phasma 5
Ship Total: 63
Half Points: 32 Threshold: 6

 

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I've always felt that support ships should be supporting as its define trait. Instead of adding points to upgrades or changing text to cards why not just make the upsilon a unique ship and drop the cost of it by 3-5 across the board? It stops the "boogie man" of trip upsilon while helping out other FO list that use a support ship and could even make more viable list for FO like a mini swarm with upsilon and hux.

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47 minutes ago, Oberron said:

I've always felt that support ships should be supporting as its define trait. Instead of adding points to upgrades or changing text to cards why not just make the upsilon a unique ship and drop the cost of it by 3-5 across the board? It stops the "boogie man" of trip upsilon while helping out other FO list that use a support ship and could even make more viable list for FO like a mini swarm with upsilon and hux.

I think they want to avoid errata, and rely on points changes.

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2 hours ago, bydand said:

This is the only place Dormitz is used.

The only reason the alpha is so destructive is the extra tokens from HTD allowing a TL action by the leading shuttles. Naked dice or a single focus or TL isn't nearly as scary. And those SBP's die much faster without the double evades on the first turn. 

If Dormitz were truly an issue you'd see him used in many more lists with swarms and high initiative alphas.

HTD is the problem. The Upsilons are just a convenient platform that highlight the issue. 

However, HTD isn't a problem in lists without Dormitz, either.

As to non-3U Dormitz lists, what high-Init alphas could exist in First Order?  There aren't many high Init First Order pilots.  QD/Blackout/Dormitz fits with a Torpedo on Blackout, but not much else and next to no bid.  No Dormitz swarms?  Well non-Dormitz TIE/FO swarms don't exist, either.

//

Initiative 6 Forward Deploy Upsilons? A problem.

Init 6 non-Upsilon Forward Deploy? Likely not a problem.  I just don't think the heft and intimidation is really there for a list like this to be an issue.

Initiative 6 Upsilons with standard Range 1 Deploy?  Almost surely not a problem.

Initiative 2 Forward Deploy Upsilons?  I'm not sure.  Is just dropping two in the middle of the board enough?  Maybe that'd still be a problem.  I certainly think it'd be more of a problem than 3x Upsilons placed at Init 6, if they have to start in the normal deployment zone.  Maybe the effectiveness of the list has simply gone down low enough to the point where it doesn't matter (particularly because there'd be fewer tokens).

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4 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I dont know what the best is, but we suspect collision detector is particularly good to remove any "rock strategy" people devise. And then phasma to stop k-turns behind it in an immediate joust.

This is what we use to practice against:

https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v5!h!238:185,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,111,-1:;288:185,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,112,-1:;288:185,-1,-1,-1,183,-1,-1,-1:&sn=Triple Ups&obs=

Triple Ups (199)

 

Lieutenant Dormitz — Upsilon-Class Command Shuttle 60
Hyperspace Tracking Data 2
Advanced Sensors 10
Ship Total: 72
Half Points: 36 Threshold: 6
   
Starkiller Base Pilot — Upsilon-Class Command Shuttle 56
Hyperspace Tracking Data 2
Collision Detector 6
Ship Total: 64
Half Points: 32 Threshold: 6
   
Starkiller Base Pilot — Upsilon-Class Command Shuttle 56
Hyperspace Tracking Data 2
Captain Phasma 5
Ship Total: 63
Half Points: 32 Threshold: 6

 

What I'm seeing locally is Dormitz and 2 SKB Pilots, all with HTD and Collision Detectors for 196 points.

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

However, HTD isn't a problem in lists without Dormitz, either.

As to non-3U Dormitz lists, what high-Init alphas could exist in First Order?  There aren't many high Init First Order pilots.  QD/Blackout/Dormitz fits with a Torpedo on Blackout, but not much else and next to no bid.  No Dormitz swarms?  Well non-Dormitz TIE/FO swarms don't exist, either.

//

Initiative 6 Forward Deploy Upsilons? A problem.

Init 6 non-Upsilon Forward Deploy? Likely not a problem.  I just don't think the heft and intimidation is really there for a list like this to be an issue.

Initiative 6 Upsilons with standard Range 1 Deploy?  Almost surely not a problem.

Initiative 2 Forward Deploy Upsilons?  I'm not sure.  Is just dropping two in the middle of the board enough?  Maybe that'd still be a problem.  I certainly think it'd be more of a problem than 3x Upsilons placed at Init 6, if they have to start in the normal deployment zone.  Maybe the effectiveness of the list has simply gone down low enough to the point where it doesn't matter (particularly because there'd be fewer tokens).

I get what you're saying, my point is that HTD creates the problem. 

Play against Trips with Dormitz placement at I6 but no HTD tokens. It's like playing against 3 Shuttles deployed normally. The list is a non-issue, even being handed I6 placement for free. It's a complete non-issue with I2 placement. 

You don't see swarms with Dormitz charging forward because you have the same problem: dice with 1 or no mods, and no defense if you save Focus for offense or take a TL action. HTD means double modded, more or less guaranteed 4 hits from 2 Ups, behind 2 additional evades AND a focus if TL re-rolls were lucky. 

 

Like I said, Trips presents a convenient platform for this list because of Dormitz and a 4 primary. BUT without HTD tokens, the list is more or less worthless, because they don't have the opener AND the defense... which is kind of the whole point of Tripsilons. Blow up a lot of points, and Reinforce & Jam to time.

 

HTD is the problem. Not Dormitz. And not the Upsilon.

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I've heard several people say they have hyperspace lists that can dumpster Tripsilons so easy, but they are worried about general effectiveness of the lists.  What are these magical lists and how come I've never seen one posted?  I call BS unless someone wants to share and convince me I'm wrong... :)

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1 hour ago, T70 Driver said:

What I'm seeing locally is Dormitz and 2 SKB Pilots, all with HTD and Collision Detectors for 196 points.

That works, but I suspect no phasma makes it much much easier to put 4 ships in front of it and get 2-3 behind after initial engage.

 

its pretty flavor to taste though, honestly - not a lot of wrong answers here.

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2 hours ago, ahdaniels76 said:

I've heard several people say they have hyperspace lists that can dumpster Tripsilons so easy, but they are worried about general effectiveness of the lists.  What are these magical lists and how come I've never seen one posted?  I call BS unless someone wants to share and convince me I'm wrong... :)

These ones for example would joust with them and win but if you go against arc dodgers you will probably lose.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v5!h!27:116,138,-1,4,165,-1,90:;29:116,138,-1,-1,165,-1,90:;29:116,138,-1,-1,165,-1,90:;29:116,138,-1,-1,164,-1,90:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

or

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v5!h!27:130,138,-1,4,165,-1,90:;29:130,138,-1,-1,164,-1,90:;29:130,138,-1,-1,-1,-1,90:;29:130,138,-1,-1,-1,-1,90:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

 

 

Edited by tsondaboy

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Interesting.   Maybe.  Lots of hull, but limited firepower.  Takes 3 tokens to ionize a big ship.... I assume Tripsilons would go heavy on reinforce to avoid early ionization, but I guess the tokens stick around so eventually one gets ionized.  I'd love to see a match played out to see if the y-wings could pull it off.

Anything other than Y-wings?

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17 minutes ago, ahdaniels76 said:

Interesting.   Maybe.  Lots of hull, but limited firepower.  Takes 3 tokens to ionize a big ship.... I assume Tripsilons would go heavy on reinforce to avoid early ionization, but I guess the tokens stick around so eventually one gets ionized.  I'd love to see a match played out to see if the y-wings could pull it off.

Anything other than Y-wings?

Limited firepower is a mater of perspective when you can double tap with the Y's. Reinforce means that the Upsilons did not take TL as their action so less chances you will kill a Y-Wing and in addition it adds an evade that can be cancelled with crack shot. At initiative 3 the math is in favor of the Y-wings.

I would personally fly Rey with Nien or Ello against it that can do better all around.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v5!h!244:72,-1,173,-1,174,-1,107,193:;299:126,205,105,175,198,171,168:U.10&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

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22 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

Limited firepower is a mater of perspective when you can double tap with the Y's. Reinforce means that the Upsilons did not take TL as their action so less chances you will kill a Y-Wing and in addition it adds an evade that can be cancelled with crack shot. At initiative 3 the math is in favor of the Y-wings.

I would personally fly Rey with Nien or Ello against it that can do better all around.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v5!h!244:72,-1,173,-1,174,-1,107,193:;299:126,205,105,175,198,171,168:U.10&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Don't have much to add, but the timing on reinforce and crack shot is wrong. Crack shot is "before the Neutralize Results step", and reinforce adds a result "during the Neutralize Results step" if certain conditions are met. You can't cancel the evade added by reinforce with crack shot.

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2 minutes ago, MarrowHawk said:

Don't have much to add, but the timing on reinforce and crack shot is wrong. Crack shot is "before the Neutralize Results step", and reinforce adds a result "during the Neutralize Results step" if certain conditions are met. You can't cancel the evade added by reinforce with crack shot.

I stand corrected on that, but you can still cancel one of their evade tokens with it.

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28 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

It’s an interesting puzzle, and a boogie-man, it’s weirdly good for the game as it causes a stir, especially in the sensitive force-users. I kinda see it as the 2.0 version of triple Intel Agent Scouts. 

With a bigger gun and coordinate.

Though I’m not sure that, ultimately, double tap Y’s aren’t better in the end. They’re certainly one of the lists that will fare best against it.

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On 2/10/2019 at 11:51 AM, Jeff Wilder said:

That's an amazing catch.  I would not be surprised to see this happen.

Are there any other (non-broken) cards that use the "between" language that would be affected?

Not broken, but 0-2 Friendly Ship would be...broken...

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9 hours ago, tsondaboy said:

Limited firepower is a mater of perspective when you can double tap with the Y's. Reinforce means that the Upsilons did not take TL as their action so less chances you will kill a Y-Wing and in addition it adds an evade that can be cancelled with crack shot. At initiative 3 the math is in favor of the Y-wings.

I would personally fly Rey with Nien or Ello against it that can do better all around.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v5!h!244:72,-1,173,-1,174,-1,107,193:;299:126,205,105,175,198,171,168:U.10&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

I forgot about the double tap from same arc.  I thought it had to be separate arc facings, not separate weapon arcs.  

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