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player3168361

Questions about the niman disciple

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Why is it that the (arguably) most powerful type of lightsaber form, niman, is on a career that is all about peace. 
I know that from a flavor perspective, it makes a bit more sense, as it was the form that was used by people who didn't want to focus on fighting. 
But at the same, time, they have some of the most balanced skill trees. 3 ranks reflect, 3 parry. 2 defensive training, and effects like draw closer that are quite good. 

All I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense that the best and most balanced tree is going to a career that makes a big show out of not focusing on fighting.

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17 minutes ago, player3168361 said:

Why is it that the (arguably) most powerful type of lightsaber form, niman, is on a career that is all about peace. 
I know that from a flavor perspective, it makes a bit more sense, as it was the form that was used by people who didn't want to focus on fighting. 
But at the same, time, they have some of the most balanced skill trees. 3 ranks reflect, 3 parry. 2 defensive training, and effects like draw closer that are quite good. 

All I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense that the best and most balanced tree is going to a career that makes a big show out of not focusing on fighting.

Because Niman isn't the best form because there isn't really a best form. It's a balanced form that diplomats use to train to give them enough skills to deal with a variety of situations while allowing them to focus on their internal studies and the ways of the force. The Jedi large and large by this point were not a warlike people and thus typically spent most of their times as mediators more then anything else. It to me is a form comparable to some variants of martial arts that aren't particularly optimised for war, but spiritual development. This is why it was the only force tree to have a force rating.

 

Out of all the careers, I feel that this career best represents what Jedi were in this time period. They were diplomats, scientists, worshipers of the force, their waring days long behind them. In contrast, mystic best represents with Sith, with it's alchemy, dark powers and ultimately chasing power at any cost.
 

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Best combative form hands down (it isn't even close) is aturu, if you want to win a duel you show up with ataru.  But with honorable mentions given to juyo (crits) and niman and makashi (1 on 1 dueling, with 5 ranks of parry)

Niman in my opinion is likely the second best form offensively (behind ataru) because of draw closer and second or third best defensively (behind soresu, and there are a lot of contenders here) because of 2 ranks of defensive training. But it's signature talents draw closer and force assault are more about using the force than a lightsaber.  Yes it's well balanced, and yes it's powerful but that power comes from using the force rather than a saber.  If you want a well balanced/rounded character you choose niman as your form if you want to be the badass with a saber, then you choose ataru.

But with the right combos you get close to ataru.  

A warrior:  steelhand adept/niman disciple with unmatched ferocity and ebb/flow might (as in it's random) beat ataru sage in a duel but they can only do it once per session and ataru can do it twice in the same encounter 

I chose steelhand adept rather than shi cho knight because of the force die (and 3 force die are pretty much required to have a decent chance at pulling off interesting stuff) and over agressor etc. because it provides unarmed parry and a rank of parry.

Thar said, warrior: shi cho knight/niman disciple/sage is pretty potent 

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5 hours ago, player3168361 said:

Why is it that the (arguably) most powerful type of lightsaber form, niman, is on a career that is all about peace. 
I know that from a flavor perspective, it makes a bit more sense, as it was the form that was used by people who didn't want to focus on fighting. 
But at the same, time, they have some of the most balanced skill trees. 3 ranks reflect, 3 parry. 2 defensive training, and effects like draw closer that are quite good. 

All I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense that the best and most balanced tree is going to a career that makes a big show out of not focusing on fighting.

What was the Jedi code? 

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7 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Best combative form hands down (it isn't even close) is aturu, if you want to win a duel you show up with ataru.  But with honorable mentions given to juyo (crits) and niman and makashi (1 on 1 dueling, with 5 ranks of parry)

Niman in my opinion is likely the second best form offensively (behind ataru) because of draw closer and second or third best defensively (behind soresu, and there are a lot of contenders here) because of 2 ranks of defensive training. But it's signature talents draw closer and force assault are more about using the force than a lightsaber.  Yes it's well balanced, and yes it's powerful but that power comes from using the force rather than a saber.  If you want a well balanced/rounded character you choose niman as your form if you want to be the badass with a saber, then you choose ataru.

But with the right combos you get close to ataru.  

A warrior:  steelhand adept/niman disciple with unmatched ferocity and ebb/flow might (as in it's random) beat ataru sage in a duel but they can only do it once per session and ataru can do it twice in the same encounter 

I chose steelhand adept rather than shi cho knight because of the force die (and 3 force die are pretty much required to have a decent chance at pulling off interesting stuff) and over agressor etc. because it provides unarmed parry and a rank of parry.

Thar said, warrior: shi cho knight/niman disciple/sage is pretty potent 

As someone who has Ataru for three years, this is correct. Linked, Hawk-bat swoop + Saber Swarm is a catalyst for an insane amount of damage on a weapon that typically ignores soak anyway, especially now I am up to a force rating of 4. I find that sometimes I have to hold myself back if the GM isn't bringing his a-game to a particular situation as I could easily destroy most NPC's by either piling on the crits or linking enough blows. That being said, I'm fine holding back that if it makes for a more dramatic situation.

That being said; that combination sounds pretty awesome. I wouldn't mind considering messing around with steel hand/niman bonkers, just it's getting rid of my existing character that's the problem. XD

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5 minutes ago, TheShard said:

Can you saber swarm a thrown saber?

I don't see why not as long as you use lightsaber(Agility) to make the saber throw attack. 

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13 hours ago, TheShard said:

Can you saber swarm a thrown saber?

I wouldn't permit it at my table.  Saber Swarm is already extremely powerful, with it's one weakness being the user needs to be Engaged.  Which isn't a big a weakness due to Hawk Bat Swoop!

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8 hours ago, TalosX said:

I wouldn't permit it at my table.  Saber Swarm is already extremely powerful, with it's one weakness being the user needs to be Engaged.  Which isn't a big a weakness due to Hawk Bat Swoop!

There is nothing in the talent that says that though. It is simply take 1 strain to perform the maneuver and your next lightsaber(Agility) combat check gains the linked quality with ranks equal to your force rating. 

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1 hour ago, Nihil84 said:

There is nothing in the talent that says that though. It is simply take 1 strain to perform the maneuver and your next lightsaber(Agility) combat check gains the linked quality with ranks equal to your force rating. 

I'm not arguing whether it does or doesn't say you can use Saber Swarm with Saber Throw.  I'm saying it's not permitted at my table.  Part of being a good GM is knowing when to reign in certain mechanics.  Saber Swarm is essentially Auto-Fire with a lightsaber.  Most people already agree Auto-Fire is broken.  Using Saber Swarm this way, is essentially Auto-Fire with Breach!  That's massively broken, and will not be permitted if I'm the GM.

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6 minutes ago, TalosX said:

I'm not arguing whether it does or doesn't say you can use Saber Swarm with Saber Throw.  I'm saying it's not permitted at my table.  Part of being a good GM is knowing when to reign in certain mechanics.  Saber Swarm is essentially Auto-Fire with a lightsaber.  Most people already agree Auto-Fire is broken.  Using Saber Swarm this way, is essentially Auto-Fire with Breach!  That's massively broken, and will not be permitted if I'm the GM.

It's not Auto-fire; there's no increased Difficulty, you're limited to the number of hits by the Linked rating,  and all hits have to be on the same target. It's really no stronger than using it in melee with Hawk Bat Swoop, and actually somewhat inferior in effectiveness unless you couldn't reach the target with HBS (which isn't too common for a powerful Ataru Striker unless fighting flyers).

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3 hours ago, Nihil84 said:

There is nothing in the talent that says that though. It is simply take 1 strain to perform the maneuver and your next lightsaber(Agility) combat check gains the linked quality with ranks equal to your force rating. 

It seems to go against the narrative theme of saberswarm, because how are you going no narrate multiple hits from a thrown saber? Ffg Star Wars official rulings tend to go down in the direction of rules as intended/common sense rather than rules as written.  I suggest submitting a question to the devs

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/customer-service/

And then waiting a few months for an answer.

 

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Narratively it could be a really rapid spin on the saber allowing for multiple hits as it passes the target or simply hitting them again as it returns to the force user, but I have submitted a question to the devs.

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You are telekinetically making the saber go out and hit your target and then return to your hand. It's not much of a stretch that adding Saber Swarm just makes it: You are telekinetically making the saber go out and hit your target (potentially) multiple times and then return to your hand. This isn't even a stretch of the rules and it strains credibility not at all. 

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1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

It seems to go against the narrative theme of saberswarm, because how are you going no narrate multiple hits from a thrown saber? Ffg Star Wars official rulings tend to go down in the direction of rules as intended/common sense rather than rules as written.  I suggest submitting a question to the devs

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/customer-service/

And then waiting a few months for an answer.

 

Not that it's canon (anymore?), but if you/anyone has ever played the Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy game - it's the best lightsaber fighting game that has ever been, for reference and is available pretty cheap on Steam especially if you catch it on sale, but anyway - at higher/the highest skill levels, the thrown saber absolutely just sits out there at range and spins like a buzzsaw around the target, capable of hitting them multiple times before returning.

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12 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

It's not Auto-fire; there's no increased Difficulty, you're limited to the number of hits by the Linked rating,  and all hits have to be on the same target. It's really no stronger than using it in melee with Hawk Bat Swoop, and actually somewhat inferior in effectiveness unless you couldn't reach the target with HBS (which isn't too common for a powerful Ataru Striker unless fighting flyers).

It's close enough!  It is a GM's duty to ensure all players enjoy themselves.  Allowing Saber Swarm to be used at range is a very solid way to turn the strongest melee offensive specialization, into the strongest offensive specialization at any range.  So I'll state again, it will not be permitted if I'm the GM.

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On 2/10/2019 at 7:01 AM, Nihil84 said:

There is nothing in the talent that says that though. It is simply take 1 strain to perform the maneuver and your next lightsaber(Agility) combat check gains the linked quality with ranks equal to your force rating. 

If a GM allowed this type of power gaming I would probably leave the group that night and not come back (hate dnd type of powergaming).  Ataru is already op now you want the same op at any range as well.  I'm sure somewhere either a Dev or something in the book would state a rule that would keep this from happening.  Possible the fact you are using your force rating and die for two different things at the same time (might be a stretch to say that though).

Edited by Metalghost

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29 minutes ago, Metalghost said:

If a GM allowed this type of power gaming I would probably leave the group that night and not come back (hate dnd type of powergaming).  Ataru is already op now you want the same op at any range as well.  I'm sure somewhere either a Dev or something in the book would state a rule that would keep this from happening.  Possible the fact you are using your force rating and die for two different things at the same time (might be a stretch to say that though).

Used Saber Swarm + Saber Throw in the playtest, and it still came through untouched; it's working as intended.

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5 hours ago, Metalghost said:

If a GM allowed this type of power gaming I would probably leave the group that night and not come back (hate dnd type of powergaming).  Ataru is already op now you want the same op at any range as well.  I'm sure somewhere either a Dev or something in the book would state a rule that would keep this from happening.  Possible the fact you are using your force rating and die for two different things at the same time (might be a stretch to say that though).

The "balance" (as it is) with that combination is both the Force points needed (Ataru Striker has no Force Rating talent, so on its own it's less likely to be able to throw and reclaim a lightsaber when using Saber Throw) as well as the advantage needed for activating Linked more than once (per RAW, each instance requires 2 Advantage, and the devs have shot down that you can't use talents like Jury Rig to affect Linked when its provided by Saber Swarm).

However, where the devs don't seem to have done as well with game balance is when you start getting into the realm of multiple specs, and the PCs reaching the 1000+ earned XP mark.  Keith Kappel's Jedi Council one-shot showed that while the game is still playable when the PCs all have over 1500 earned XP, the GM really needs to scale up the level of challenge required due to the fast power and competency those characters have.

Now, the game still plays well at the high end XP spectrum (unlike D&D 3.X and Pathfinder which started breaking down after reaching 10th level and spiraled downwards quickly).  So PC with 2000 earned XP that has Lightsaber 5 and both Ataru Striker and Seer maxed out is going to be able to use Saber Swarm+Saber Throw to potentially devastating effect, having a Force Rating of 3 for Linked 3 and a robust enough dice pool (presuming Agility of at least 4) to be able to not only generate enough Force Points for Saber Throw reliably, but also to trigger at least one instance of Linked if not all 3.

Then again, autofire is a rule that's proven problematic ever since the EotE Beta, especially if combined with Jury Rig to drop the Advantage cost down to one, and the devs have done nothing about that, so I'd take the notion of "devs doing something for a well-balanced game" with a grain of salt.  The writers seem more focused on "does this make things fun?" and how well it operates at the lower end of the spectrum in terms of character advancement.

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The primary job of the GM is to answer the question does this make things fun.

Keep in Mind Force Leap pretty much guarantees an Ataru Player can make it to long range in a single turn.

A combination of Force Leap, Hawkbat Swoop and Saber swarm is just as dangerous as Saber Throw and Saber Swarm.

Edited by Decorus

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3 hours ago, Decorus said:

The primary job of the GM is to answer the question does this make things fun.

Keep in Mind Force Leap pretty much guarantees an Ataru Player can make it to long range in a single turn.

A combination of Force Leap, Hawkbat Swoop and Saber swarm is just as dangerous as Saber Throw and Saber Swarm.

Exactly and is doable all in one spec while leaving more pips to spend on advantage, since you don't have to spend 2 pips on just getting your saber to fly out and back at medium range. It would take 3 pips and a out of career cross spec into sentry to get saber throw to long range.

So yeah Aratu striker with force leap, the most thematic power to combine with Aratu, is way more power gamey than combining it with saber throw. I don't get the guttural reactions of NOOO!! some are having besides maybe they just already hate and want to do away with Ataru to begin with it.

Edited by Nihil84

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On 2/18/2019 at 8:29 PM, Nihil84 said:

Exactly and is doable all in one spec while leaving more pips to spend on advantage, since you don't have to spend 2 pips on just getting your saber to fly out and back at medium range. It would take 3 pips and a out of career cross spec into sentry to get saber throw to long range.

So yeah Aratu striker with force leap, the most thematic power to combine with Aratu, is way more power gamey than combining it with saber throw. I don't get the guttural reactions of NOOO!! some are having besides maybe they just already hate and want to do away with Ataru to begin with it.

I'm fairly sure you cant use your force dice on more than a single talent or power per roll, so while you could combine saber swarm and saber throw, you can't combine saber throw and hawkbat swoop.

Meaning that while you can throw a saber with linked, you're dependant on the advantages you getfromthe skill check. Your force pips canonly be used for saber throw.

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15 hours ago, penpenpen said:

I'm fairly sure you cant use your force dice on more than a single talent or power per roll, so while you could combine saber swarm and saber throw, you can't combine saber throw and hawkbat swoop.

Meaning that while you can throw a saber with linked, you're dependant on the advantages you getfromthe skill check. Your force pips canonly be used for saber throw.

I recently got an answer from Sam Stewart saying that draw closer and ebb/flow can be used on the same roll but you only got to add your force dice once.  I'm not commenting on whether your conclusion is correct or not only that your reasoning for it is incorrect.

 

Rules Question:
Suppose a niman disciple with draw closer has ebb/flow Can they be used on the same roll? I know you wouldn't get to add the force dice twice (because it's far to abusable) but could they share dice between the power and talent, for example if they have a white pip that they don't need to hit the target can they use it to get a strain (or 2 depending on upgrades) back?

Hello Keith,

You may, but you would not add the Force dice twice (as you noted).

Hope this helps!

Sam Gregor-Stewart

RPG Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

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