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AkodoAoki

Dueling Question?

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1 minute ago, gareth_lazelle said:

Well sure, but not every character has a big earth ring,

If you started with a high earth then sure, you'd have all the more incentive to do exactly that,

It isn't just duelists that get into duels,

And duels aren't just there for duelists,

And not all duels begin with sheathed weapons (see also duels during skirmishes and mass battles for example),

But sure, if you regularly duel in a formal setting, then investing in one or the other iaijutsu kata is pretty much a no-brainer, I'll grant you that happily,

All of your points on Center are correct, I think,

My point was that center is not usually about winning the duel, it's about supercharging a single action, and consequently it is as powerful as that action is, perhaps more useful for Taryu-Jiai duels, because invocations have a lot of powerful opportunities, or for finishing blows if you want to leave a foe crippled.

obviously, we are talking about "optimal" strategy; which is, if you want to be THE best first strike/blood duellist to have a huge earth ring and an Iai kata.
a player with this is the best duellist he can be for first strike/blood duels.
I just find it a bit... boring ? I prefered if every duellist (ring) had a chance. hence why I houseruled it.

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Just now, gareth_lazelle said:

Even that presumes no other knowledge - if I know your ring scores I can make better odds than that (or accept the risk of you attacking with a weak ring),

Not true,

Earth just prevents criticals from opportunities,

The crit from Finishing blow (for example) is not an opportunity - earth cannot prevent it,

finishing blow is another story altogether!

but since i have a big earth, i'm more like to have more composure (or at least as much as you).
are you willing to risk not being in earth yourself, to put strife on me or heal strife from yourself ? risking of me doing a critical strike on you and winning ?

your best bet is to hit me and lower my endurance, which I also have a decent score, because, earth.

and again, if you are not in earth stance yourself, you always risk the auto-lose from a crit.

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3 minutes ago, gareth_lazelle said:

I can't really argue with that,

lol, @Franwax told you you were risking "summoning" me with a question about duelling!

anyway, good gaming! l5r is really fun however you personally enjoy to play it!

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8 hours ago, gareth_lazelle said:

Maybe I pick water and strike/predict, 

Also note that Predict is an attack and scheme action, so even as your bonus action in Water stance, there isn’t much you can do... certainly not strike. 

7 hours ago, gareth_lazelle said:

Yeah, but he warned me after the fact ;)

Hehe sorry. The ritual had been performed ! But @Avatar111, I did PREDICT your reaction, right? :D Ok it was not that hard. 

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Minor addendum to this topic,

I note on page 261 that a duel does not end immediately upon completion of objectives, instead it ends at the end of a combat round,

Not a big deal for duels to the death, as the foe won't be doing anything after that...

But for duels to first blood or first strike this might be a big deal - if you leave yourself open in order to get that critical hit in, it can result in you getting critted and then losing on the scoring (albeit you should have a 3 pt advantage there for getting the first crit in, so your opponent does face an uphill battle),

Not sure ATM quite how much impact this will have on the discussion above, but it may well influence dueling strategy,

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16 minutes ago, gareth_lazelle said:

But for duels to first blood or first strike this might be a big deal - if you leave yourself open in order to get that critical hit in, it can result in you getting critted and then losing on the scoring (albeit you should have a 3 pt advantage there for getting the first crit in, so your opponent does face an uphill battle),

While we're dealing with the devilish details: if you get a winning crit in during a first blood duel you inflict the Bleeding condition; bleeding can lead to fatigue. Does fatigue caused by bleeding count as inflicted by the enemy duelist, and thus add to the score in a duel? 

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I think we had another thread on that too, specifically on duels to the death, because ACTUALLY... the victory condition is to inflict Dying on the target, not to kill them outright. There can be borderline cases where receiving a severity 12 crit gives you Severely Wounded in one ring, bleeding and Dying (3 rounds), but otherwise leaves you functional - especially if you switch to another Stance on your next turn... another can of worms. 

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1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

While we're dealing with the devilish details: if you get a winning crit in during a first blood duel you inflict the Bleeding condition; bleeding can lead to fatigue. Does fatigue caused by bleeding count as inflicted by the enemy duelist, and thus add to the score in a duel? 

I would have said so - after all, what are the judges assessing when they award points for fatigue?

It has to be how exhausted the combatant is,

And fatigue caused by blood loss clearly is going to be a part of that,

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22 hours ago, gareth_lazelle said:

I would have said so - after all, what are the judges assessing when they award points for fatigue?

It has to be how exhausted the combatant is,

And fatigue caused by blood loss clearly is going to be a part of that,

Definitely. Besides which, if you're going to be persnickety, the table says "inflicted fatigue on the enemy" it doesn't actually say "you inflicted fatigue on the enemy".

Someone being incapacitated by blood loss is clearly you winning, so logically it should count for you.

22 hours ago, Franwax said:

I think we had another thread on that too, specifically on duels to the death, because ACTUALLY... the victory condition is to inflict Dying on the target, not to kill them outright.

Correct.

If you inflict the Dying condition, then you get 6 points for achieving your objective plus (presumably) 12 points for the critical strike which inflicted the condition. 

There's a seperate line item of 14 points if they actually die

Obviously that's probably irrelevant for figuring out "who won", since if they be dead and you aren't, provided you haven't cheated you kind of win by default, but it should presumably be enough to lift you into the 'No Contest' results band where you get +5 Glory, even if you've taken a shedload of fatigue and non-fatal criticals that would otherwise square up the points.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/10/2019 at 4:44 AM, Avatar111 said:

As written, Center action is bad. simply, bad.

A bit of thread-maho here...

So, I haven’t got the game to the table yet, but an idea occurs to me: what happens if Center and Predict are combined into one action? Does this new action become inherently valuable enough to challenge the supremacy of strike-spamming in the RAW?

The way I see it they could be combined in two ways (the first less powerful than the second):

1) Predict as normal with a Center action at the same time, 

or

2) Predict as normal then Center kicks in as a freebie  when they have declared their stance and you know what stance they are in (allowing you to choose you boosted skill there and then before choosing your action for the turn).

Would this make a difference? Be too much? I’m still internalising the RAW, so please pick this apart if I am wrong.

Shane

Edited by Shane

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53 minutes ago, Shane said:

A bit of thread-maho here...

So, I haven’t got the game to the table yet, but an idea occurs to me: what happens if Center and Predict are combined into one action? Does this new action become inherently valuable enough to challenge the supremacy of strike-spamming in the RAW?

The way I see it they could be combined in two ways (the first less powerful than the second):

1) Predict as normal with a Center action at the same time, 

or

2) Predict as normal then Center kicks in as a freebie  when they have declared their stance and you know what stance they are in (allowing you to choose you boosted skill there and then before choosing your action for the turn).

Would this make a difference? Be too much? I’m still internalising the RAW, so please pick this apart if I am wrong.

Shane

possibly! an earth prediction + a center, would be a real threat indeed and probably worth not striking for, especially if you win the initiative, AND winning the initiative should be PRIMORDIAL for duels, as the strife bidding during the Staredown should be the MAIN MECHANIC of duels (this makes duels faster + makes the mindgame more fun than just striking for multiple rounds or trying to strife the opponent with random system stretchings)


detail; the Center action should be part of the predict action (and not requiring to be in void stance).

then yeah! Hiruma school is still a problem against it (as they can earth stance after they attack and bypass the predict action) but that is a niche case and the Hiruma ability is kind of busted anyway :D

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5 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

IMGroups, Predict has turned several duels in play as it triggered finishing strikes.

I believe he/she was talking about the Center action.

but thanks. though I don't believe you ;) 

 

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6 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

I believe he/she was talking about the Center action.

but thanks. though I don't believe you ;) 

 

As written I can see how it might turn a duel, if someone did gain the 4 strife from choosing the predicted stance at the wrong time.

Another idea that occurs to me is what if stances and actions were secretly chosen after initiative (so you know the initiative order before you decide)? Then the stances/actions are revealed and resolved in initiative order. This means you have to make your plans based on your opponent’s actions on previous rounds and can’t react to their decision this turn; but it does reflect the sudden flurry of action aspect of staredown duels in which you both react suddenly. This might lead to more finishing blow endings as people cannot consciously avoid predicts, perhaps?

Thanks for the comments so far.

Shane (oh, I’m a he, Avatar111 🙂 )

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To be honest, Centre and Predict do feel like they both deserve a second string. Making them the same action is impressive, but the one question is whether you'd still expect it to be done in void stance. 

After all, 'pre-loading the dice' and predicting is a nice trick - I'm not sure I'd be happy seeing it done from behind the 'barricade' of earth stance. 

 

Centre is a worthwhile concept - much like channelling, it's something a starting character - especially one not intended to be a duellist - needs to have much chance of delivering the 792424631_SuccessSmall.png.f580b7641c8c8792424631_SuccessSmall.png.f580b7641c8c81211841275_OpportunitySmall.png.acf413431211841275_OpportunitySmall.png.acf41343 requirement to win a duel to first strike.

However, to really justify doing it, you need a least one 1521230551_ExplosiveSuccessSmall.png.2cc or 1211841275_OpportunitySmall.png.acf41343792424631_SuccessSmall.png.f580b7641c8c8 result, which you only have about a 30% chance of getting if you've got Martial Arts (Melee) 2 (which is good for a starting character), meaning most of the time you've wasted an action and you're stood there in comparatively vulnerable void stance.

Giving it the second string of Predict (which, for example, can stop an equally weak opponent - who can be assumed to be unlikely to have an iaijutsu technique) from assuming Water Stance, meaning they can't draw and strike in one turn. Whether they take strife is less important than stopping you losing the duel right then and there.

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Posted (edited)

In the end;

 

Duels to first strike (earth stance fest) should not exist at higher ranks. They are simply not fun when skill/ring gets higher as Earth Stance becomes too much a necessity.

Duels to first blood are ok, especially considering getting that severity 5 critical is not "that easy" and can include some risk reward. Though you do have the option to end it quickly if you have heartpiercing strike, kakita's ability, or some kind of magic weapon or other way to increase deadliness or put a lot of strife on the opponent (which is rare, Ikoma's ability probably the best for it, Predict is ok too but not worth the risk I think) If you have one of those option, it changes the whole thing and needs to be considered according to the ability that can allow you to win.

Earth Stance is safer, but not necessarily mandatory as lowering a critical strike below severity 5 is achievable.

Duels to the death are same as above except they don't necessarily favor high deadliness as much.

 

In retrospective, put the duel to first strike aside, and the whole thing works decently. Sure predict and center still remain mostly useless, but otherwise, you end up with a cool skirmish, some needed strife management, and some risk reward; favors Melee Skill and Fitness checks the most, and Meditation skill to a lesser extent.

Where a lot of people bugged down was that many of them expected the "Iaijutsu Duel" to be more of a one strike thing, ended very quickly after maybe a round of staredown and focusing. These are the type of duels you don't have in this game because the Iai Kata cannot crit and to a lesser extent because Earth Stance exists.

So, unless the character have some kind of strife giving capability (which is almost non-existent) to fish for that finishing blow quickly enough (and predict isn't good enough to make that happen since it doesn't put pressure on the opponent at all), there is not many way to do the "draw+win"... Meaning the duel will probably be a coupe of rounds of exchanging blows.

If you forget about these type of fantasy Iaijutsu Duels, and see duels as skirmishes with an added composure timer (and duels to first blood as having the possibility to end earlier if you can manage a high severity critical). It isn't that bad.

 

Edited by Avatar111

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Posted (edited)

So maybe the fix I prefer is simply to allow Iai Kata to crit, and not really use the "duel to first strike" rule unless doing a duel with two very low skill combattants, maybe.
It doesn't really make the romanticized Iaijutsu Duel a thing before much higher rank, And it still allows for someone to stay in earth stance against someone who can deliever a high critical severity Iai strike to "counter" him. But it makes predict slightly better in those cases as you can predict and Iai Kata crit next turn.

sure, center, and battle in the mind kata, are still mostly useless, but it isn't the end of the world. and predict becomes crutch to counter the earth turtles.

Edited by Avatar111

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6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

To be honest, Centre and Predict do feel like they both deserve a second string. Making them the same action is impressive, but the one question is whether you'd still expect it to be done in void stance. 

After all, 'pre-loading the dice' and predicting is a nice trick - I'm not sure I'd be happy seeing it done from behind the 'barricade' of earth stance.

I would call it something else, perhaps Observe, and say that you get the benefit of Predict, but if you are in Void stance you also get the benefit of Center.

Or simply say that anyone who Predicts can Center for free if they are in Void stance, or vice-versa.

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Posted (edited)

you still don't draw your weapon with prepare+center, and if you don't allow Iai kata to crit... it puts all the pressure on water stance the next turn (or on the initial turn if you allow predict+center to be done in water stance).

honestly, I see almost NO reason not allowing Iai Kata to crit. I legit do not understand why it isn't an option in their opportunity list... Like, would it be "OP" or something ??

Edited by Avatar111

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2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

you still don't draw your weapon with prepare+center, and if you don't allow Iai kata to crit... it puts all the pressure on water stance the next turn (or on the initial turn if you allow predict+center to be done in water stance).

honestly, I see almost NO reason not allowing Iai Kata to crit. I legit do not understand why it isn't an option in their opportunity list... Like, would it be "OP" or something ??

I suspect the design decision was to push to the point of a finishing blow in Iai duels. As you can't crit on an Iai kata use through opportunity this seems likely. Sure, there is a more mechanically valuable approach (strike spamming), but the in-setting expectation is the "one strike kill", so acting earlier and having to hack your opponent to death in a Iai duel is less glorious and likely to bring whispers and judgemental attitudes. So *how* you use the rules available as a player matters in the setting, I think.

I do agree that Predict and Center are sub-par by the look of them, but the decision to not allow Iai kata to crit could be very deliberate.

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