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hargleblarg

Why does the Arc-170 have a gunner slot?

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I've been playing Nora for a hot minute now, and I just can't understand it. Obviously they have the slot for tail gunner, but that card is super trash. Meanwhile, literally none of the other gunners work with the arc due to it not having bombs or mobile arcs.

I hope the republic Arc at least comes with worthwhile gunners for non-mobile arcs. 

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26 minutes ago, hargleblarg said:

I've been playing Nora for a hot minute now, and I just can't understand it. Obviously they have the slot for tail gunner, but that card is super trash. Meanwhile, literally none of the other gunners work with the arc due to it not having bombs or mobile arcs.

 I hope the republic Arc at least comes with worthwhile gunners for non-mobile arcs. 

I've used the Vet Tail Gunner to good effect, even in competitive games, so it isn't all bad (with Zeb/Intimidation). 

But I would not call it amazing - and if I really want I can find better uses for those pts.

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1 minute ago, J1mBob said:

The ARC spread in the Clone Wars announcement article has a card, "...ket Gunner", that will help at least the Republic faction (can't tell if it's faction limited):

ket-gunner.png

I would wager that's an "R", not a "K", making it a "[Something Tur]ret Gunner". Which would be even more to your point.

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3 minutes ago, Hatemonger said:

I would wager that's an "R", not a "K", making it a "[Something Tur]ret Gunner". Which would be even more to your point.

Could be! Squinting at pixels here. But the main point is it ends with "Gunner" and is in the ARC spread.

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4 minutes ago, Hatemonger said:

I would wager that's an "R", not a "K", making it a "[Something Tur]ret Gunner". Which would be even more to your point.

I'd say that since this is in the ARC spread, it doesn't make sense to be "turret" since the ARC doesn't have one. Probably says something else

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17 minutes ago, pyoinator said:

I'd say that since this is in the ARC spread, it doesn't make sense to be "turret" since the ARC doesn't have one. Probably says something else

Could be "rear turret gunner"

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10 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

I've been playing Nora for a hot minute now, and I just can't understand it. Obviously they have the slot for tail gunner, but that card is super trash. Meanwhile, literally none of the other gunners work with the arc due to it not having bombs or mobile arcs.

I hope the republic Arc at least comes with worthwhile gunners for non-mobile arcs. 

An additional attack is in no way "super trash." The opportunity to attack is one of the most valuable in the game and extra chances are few and far between. 

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28 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

An additional attack is in no way "super trash." The opportunity to attack is one of the most valuable in the game and extra chances are few and far between. 

I mean, it's fair to ask "how often does it actually come up?"

New Veteran Turret Gunner is really easy on something like a Y-Wing or Scurrg.  Point your front at something, and make two shots.  Being in between two enemy ships?  Less likely.  I feel like when I flew cheap generic SFs for a while in 1e, I usually had a turn or two when I had front and rear shots at the same time.  ARCs are a bit more awkward to fly, and their barrel rolls are red, so maybe it doesn't show up as often.

Just guessing, but I figure that if Veteran Tail Gunner lets you make two extra attacks over the course of a game, it'll almost surely have been a worthwhile upgrade for it's current cost.  One attack?  Maybe.  But like, it's only 4 points.  That's not that much.  And I don't really expect my 4-point upgrades to be that game-defining.

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10 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

Obviously they have the slot for tail gunner

I feel like you answered your own question. 

The ARC has a gunner slot because the ARC-170 had a guy who sat in the back seat of the ship whose sole job was to shoot a gun. Y'know, a gunner?

Whether or not you think Veteran Tail Gunner is good or not has no bearing on why the slot is there. 

Your argument seems to be more a question of why Rebels have trash gunners. Which is a fair enough question, because since Han's gone up they're really struggling in that department. 

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20 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, it's fair to ask "how often does it actually come up?"

I agree that it is a fair question. How often it gets used depends on the opposing list. I have found though that its presence changes the way folks fly against my ARCs. They tend to make a point of not putting ships in both firing arcs which also has value. I'll make no claims to it being a world beater upgrade but I don't find it "trash." 

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I would like to point out phantoms have literally only 1 gunner option, and he is limited..

more gunners will come, and as pointed out if you have a few points spare, its not a bad option, just not great.

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50 minutes ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

I would like to point out phantoms have literally only 1 gunner option, and he is limited..

more gunners will come, and as pointed out if you have a few points spare, its not a bad option, just not great.

Nearly any ARC pilot would kill for Fifth Brother.  He'd be very good on Norra or Shara, and decent on Ibtisam.

Phantoms are also fine with every slot empty except for Juke.  ARCs... are mediocre

But yeah, having more non-turret gunners would be great.  Only Scum seems to have actual choices options. *cough*BT-1*cough* *edit* as in, phantoms can also take...*

Edited by theBitterFig

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2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Nearly any ARC pilot would kill for Fifth Brother.  He'd be very good on Norra or Shara, and decent on Ibtisam.

Phantoms are also fine with every slot empty except for Juke.  ARCs... are mediocre

But yeah, having more non-turret gunners would be great.  Only Scum seems to have actual choices options. *cough*BT-1*cough*

Scum might have more options, but very few scum ships had gunner slots before the points rebalance(y-wing, falcon, or Firespray  with unique title.)

 

They had half a dozen good gunners, but only 3 ships that could take it.

 

Rebels have the opposite, plenty of ships with gunners, but few who benefit non-turret ships.

 

I am sure Rebels will get new gunners that don’t need turrets, scum was just lucky bc the new system allows the change without needing new cards.

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10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

*cough*BT-1*cough*

I like Greedo more. Less worried about your opponent having set themselves up in a bad position (being stressed). Before 0-0-0 is brought up as a way to get stress on a target, 0-0-0 + BT-1 = guaranteed calc token at range 1. Taking the stress from 0-0-0 is stupid.

•Greedo•BT-1

 

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2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I like Greedo more. Less worried about your opponent having set themselves up in a bad position (being stressed). Before 0-0-0 is brought up as a way to get stress on a target, 0-0-0 + BT-1 = guaranteed calc token at range 1. Taking the stress from 0-0-0 is stupid.

•Greedo•BT-1

 

I phrased it wrong.  Intent was that BT is an option (sorta) on Phantoms.  Not amazing, but decent.  Probably solid in a squad with a Sloane Reaper or Shuttle.

As to Scum, I feel like BT might have a place on Bossk.  Greedo is great on Han Solo, maybe OK on someone cheap and likely to be ignored, but probably a liability on Bossk or most other mid-Init ships.

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1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

I agree that it is a fair question. How often it gets used depends on the opposing list. I have found though that its presence changes the way folks fly against my ARCs. They tend to make a point of not putting ships in both firing arcs which also has value. I'll make no claims to it being a world beater upgrade but I don't find it "trash." 

Based on flying against SFs in 1.0, I'd argue that your opponents are making the wrong decision to try and avoid it. There's very little reason to avoid a 2 dice, likely unmodified, shot on a separate target. It's not going to come up very often in the first place, and when it does it'll hardly make enough of a difference to make up for the bad position the ARC is in if it's surrounded. I have a hard time figuring where I value it, but I'd still be thinking long and hard about including it if it were 1 or 2 points. But that's all just based on my own head sim/theorycrafting.

16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Nearly any ARC pilot would kill for Fifth Brother.  He'd be very good on Norra or Shara, and decent on Ibtisam.

Phantoms are also fine with every slot empty except for Juke.  ARCs... are mediocre

But yeah, having more non-turret gunners would be great.  Only Scum seems to have actual choices options. *cough*BT-1*cough*

SERIOUSLY. I don't feel any sympathy whatsoever for the Phantom.

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11 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I phrased it wrong.  Intent was that BT is an option (sorta) on Phantoms.  Not amazing, but decent.  Probably solid in a squad with a Sloane Reaper or Shuttle.

As to Scum, I feel like BT might have a place on Bossk.  Greedo is great on Han Solo, maybe OK on someone cheap and likely to be ignored, but probably a liability on Bossk or most other mid-Init ships.

Bossk can tank the hits, and since the opponent doesn't spend Greedo's charge it is only a slight liability. Keeping Bossk light with just Greedo can make for a nice squad around him to force your opponent to choose. They're definitely going to want to dodge his front arc.

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2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

I feel like you answered your own question. 

The ARC has a gunner slot because the ARC-170 had a guy who sat in the back seat of the ship whose sole job was to shoot a gun. Y'know, a gunner?

Whether or not you think Veteran Tail Gunner is good or not has no bearing on why the slot is there. 

Your argument seems to be more a question of why Rebels have trash gunners. Which is a fair enough question, because since Han's gone up they're really struggling in that department. 

You're completely right. I had points to spare on a Norra build and I was mostly just salty that I couldn't use those points in any worthwhile fashion. Really, I just wish that fewer gunners explicitly worked with mobile arcs only.

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4 hours ago, WAC47 said:

Based on flying against SFs in 1.0, I'd argue that your opponents are making the wrong decision to try and avoid it. There's very little reason to avoid a 2 dice, likely unmodified, shot on a separate target. It's not going to come up very often in the first place, and when it does it'll hardly make enough of a difference to make up for the bad position the ARC is in if it's surrounded. I have a hard time figuring where I value it, but I'd still be thinking long and hard about including it if it were 1 or 2 points. But that's all just based on my own head sim/theorycrafting.

I don't disagree with that reasoning. Usually I get a guy sending a ship in to joust and someone around to flank. The flankers tend to veer forward in the case of tail gunners so I can only shoot at one ship. If they don't they get caught in the front arc of a trailing ARC and in the rear arc of the leading ARC. The leading ARC gets a shot at the jouster and the flanker. Like I said. Not world-beating but useful. 

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