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xanderf

Sliding (Hangar Bay) Doors...

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11 hours ago, DScipio said:

How beautiful! What a great Armada rooster that would make!

It's fairly close to what we have, honestly.

Obviously we've got the ISD, VSD, and SSD basically as-is from the book.  And the Interdictor is...close enough.  It scales up a bit, but has the same role and capabilities/limitations.

The Escort Carrier carried a TIE wing as large as an ISD, but otherwise weakly armed and defended, so in role...roughly the same as the Quasar Fire we have.

Carrack Cruiser as a light patrol ship maps well enough to the Arquitens Cruiser.

Lancer Frigate as a small, dedicated, anti-fighter platform becomes our Raider-class Corvette easily enough.

The Systems Patrol Craft is basically what role the Gozantis fit in, although it never carried TIE Fighters (sort of an omission in the EU material, honestly, as it was always clear the TIE Fighters had no hyperdrives...indeed stated in dialog in the very first Star Wars movie...so the EU really should have come up with a smaller launch platform for it like the Gozer we now have)

Of those ships, that really only leaves for new development:

  • The old Clone Wars-era Dreadnought.  I suspect we'll get some more Clone Wars-era cruisers of some fashion, which sort of fits that gap, and may well get the Dreadnought itself.  The old EU role for it was basically as an obsolete ship left to guard Imperial interests in backwater systems not expecting serious resistance.
  • Star Galleon - now this is an odd duck I think unique to the EU.  It's a freighter, armored and armed like a proper warship, in an effort to get shipping through areas experiencing larger amounts of insurgent or pirate activity - too much to send unarmed ships, but not enough value to justify convoys with warship escorts.  Ergo, the 'two in one' warship + freighter design.  Not sure this role fits into the current understanding of the Galactic Civil War at all.
  • Strike Cruiser - another anomaly of the old EU, that had expected a very long run-down of the Empire after Endor rather than the one-year-till-surrender we got.  Their shtick is that they are modular - like how we have variant cards for the Star Destroyer to allow more squadron-heavy roles, or more command-heavy roles, or etc?  For the ships currently in game, those represent variant designs built that way from the ground-up.  But the Strike Cruiser was intended to be able to 'swap around' from different roles within a single ship, just replacing the mission module at dock.  Thus, saving money for the Empire vs having to build multiple ships, to cover each role.  Wouldn't make much difference in a tactical-scale game like ours, but makes a HUGE difference in campaigns (and I'll indulge some totally-unrealistic fantasy by suggesting it could be a fun twist to a tournament game, too - offering a ship with a few different build options you choose from after pairing in a round and before deployment).
  • 'Torpedo Sphere' - 500 proton torpedo tubes and 10 turbolasers, designed to be deployed in major pacification efforts to subdue a heavily-shielded planet quickly.  Lore for it has it built with extensive sensor suites to analyze planetary shields over time and look for slight fluctuations that can be hit with the torpedoes hard enough to create an opening the turbolasers can shoot through to hopefully destroy the shield generator.  Probably too big for the game, and I don't even know if how it works applies to the current canon anyway (that is, planetary shields are immune to turbolaser fire, but can be partially defeated with enough torpedo hits)

 

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12 hours ago, xanderf said:

It's fairly close to what we have, honestly.

Obviously we've got the ISD, VSD, and SSD basically as-is from the book.  And the Interdictor is...close enough.  It scales up a bit, but has the same role and capabilities/limitations.

The Escort Carrier carried a TIE wing as large as an ISD, but otherwise weakly armed and defended, so in role...roughly the same as the Quasar Fire we have.

Carrack Cruiser as a light patrol ship maps well enough to the Arquitens Cruiser.

Lancer Frigate as a small, dedicated, anti-fighter platform becomes our Raider-class Corvette easily enough.

The Systems Patrol Craft is basically what role the Gozantis fit in, although it never carried TIE Fighters (sort of an omission in the EU material, honestly, as it was always clear the TIE Fighters had no hyperdrives...indeed stated in dialog in the very first Star Wars movie...so the EU really should have come up with a smaller launch platform for it like the Gozer we now have)

Of those ships, that really only leaves for new development:

  • The old Clone Wars-era Dreadnought.  I suspect we'll get some more Clone Wars-era cruisers of some fashion, which sort of fits that gap, and may well get the Dreadnought itself.  The old EU role for it was basically as an obsolete ship left to guard Imperial interests in backwater systems not expecting serious resistance.
  • Star Galleon - now this is an odd duck I think unique to the EU.  It's a freighter, armored and armed like a proper warship, in an effort to get shipping through areas experiencing larger amounts of insurgent or pirate activity - too much to send unarmed ships, but not enough value to justify convoys with warship escorts.  Ergo, the 'two in one' warship + freighter design.  Not sure this role fits into the current understanding of the Galactic Civil War at all.
  • Strike Cruiser - another anomaly of the old EU, that had expected a very long run-down of the Empire after Endor rather than the one-year-till-surrender we got.  Their shtick is that they are modular - like how we have variant cards for the Star Destroyer to allow more squadron-heavy roles, or more command-heavy roles, or etc?  For the ships currently in game, those represent variant designs built that way from the ground-up.  But the Strike Cruiser was intended to be able to 'swap around' from different roles within a single ship, just replacing the mission module at dock.  Thus, saving money for the Empire vs having to build multiple ships, to cover each role.  Wouldn't make much difference in a tactical-scale game like ours, but makes a HUGE difference in campaigns (and I'll indulge some totally-unrealistic fantasy by suggesting it could be a fun twist to a tournament game, too - offering a ship with a few different build options you choose from after pairing in a round and before deployment).
  • 'Torpedo Sphere' - 500 proton torpedo tubes and 10 turbolasers, designed to be deployed in major pacification efforts to subdue a heavily-shielded planet quickly.  Lore for it has it built with extensive sensor suites to analyze planetary shields over time and look for slight fluctuations that can be hit with the torpedoes hard enough to create an opening the turbolasers can shoot through to hopefully destroy the shield generator.  Probably too big for the game, and I don't even know if how it works applies to the current canon anyway (that is, planetary shields are immune to turbolaser fire, but can be partially defeated with enough torpedo hits)

 

Its pretty similar tot the ships I have, but unfortunally thats not the offical rooster.

The Ton-Falk is jsut the much more fitting Imperial Carrier. The Lancer is a pretty unique ship, because its not a fast ans small craft, that also can be used as a destroyer.

The Carrack is pretty similar to the Arquitens (which I like) but also the much more logical choice. The canon is just to clustered with old Clone Wars ships. The Victory made sende because it was a late design that was develeoped at the end of the war, but pushing all that old buckets from the clone wars into the Galactic Civil war is a bit too much for my taste.

You are pretty right with Patrol Craft an Gozantis, altough Patrol Craft were more fighting craft (they were dedicated military ships after all)  instead to the more support oriented Gozanti (that were in the end converted civilian crafts if I remember correctly).
 

 

The whole reason I play Star Wars Armada is for the setting and the background. Most people play it because of Star Wars (and its has a good ruleset) only very few play it for the ruleset alone.

Thats why I want the Dreadnought: No Fleet need or wants it, but they had them and had to use them. Its part of the whole civila war thematic. ... AND I really love the old buckets.

The Strike Cruiser on the other hand is a odd choice for Star Wars: Its a ship that actually makes sense. Its a mass produceable, modern and powerful multi role ship. Strange enough I love that ship too.

 

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12 hours ago, xanderf said:

The Systems Patrol Craft is basically what role the Gozantis fit in, although it never carried TIE Fighters (sort of an omission in the EU material, honestly, as it was always clear the TIE Fighters had no hyperdrives...indeed stated in dialog in the very first Star Wars movie...so the EU really should have come up with a smaller launch platform for it like the Gozer we now have)

 

SPCs weren't really meant to be mobile starfighter platforms like Gozantis are - they were picket ships for low-priority areas that weren't important enough to warrant a proper base and/or fighter contingent. They're probably closer in parallel to a Decimator than a Gozanti.

In the old lore, some of the smaller ships (like the CR90s) were occasionally modified to carry a small number of fighters (usually ~3), but that was usually for gameplay purposes. In-universe, it actually makes sense to me that neither side had something like the Gozantis, because it kind of goes against the starfighter philosophy of both sides.

The Rebellion was all about raiding, hit-and-run style attacks, which is why all their starfighters had hyperdrives. They didn't need a Gozanti because it was wasted resources and they generally weren't going to be deployed "in the field" for long periods of time that would necessitate a refuelling/re-arming platform. Instead, they could just jump in, hit hard, and leave before reinforcements showed up.

The Empire didn't really need Gozantis either because, even though their own starfighters lacked hyperdrives (elite units like the Avengers and Defenders notwithstanding), they went with a quality-over-quantity approach. Bringing four TIEs to the battle wasn't likely to sway the odds one way or another - you needed, at bare minimum, a full squad. That's where ships like the Escort Carrier come in, which was really designed to be a flying hangar with minimal defences. If you needed something less powerful than a fighter wing, but more than an SPC, you'd typically be flying in support ships like ATR-6s or DX-9s, or call in Assault Gunboats for something with a little more punch. Really, though, when the Empire came to battle, they usually brought overwhelming numbers with them, because that's how they won - Gozantis don't really factor into that style of warfare.

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Gods the strike cruiser is an ugly ship.

Id like the old dreadnought as the Imperial support ship. Which to my mind is an uber gozanti with 2 fleet slots. The nerf has left me with fleet builds that genuinely wanted more than 2 for support options not just activation padding.

Vindicator, Acclamator & Venator are obvious omissions from imperial roster.

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10 hours ago, darkknight109 said:

The Empire didn't really need Gozantis either because, even though their own starfighters lacked hyperdrives (elite units like the Avengers and Defenders notwithstanding), they went with a quality-over-quantity approach. Bringing four TIEs to the battle wasn't likely to sway the odds one way or another - you needed, at bare minimum, a full squad.

That's really not the case, though.  I mean, check 'Star Wars' - escaping the Death Star, the Millennium Falcon...a souped-up smuggling ship with two ace pilots, an actual Jedi, a Force-sensitive gunner, and a pair of droids along for repair and maintenance...had an issue with only four TIE Fighters.

For the typical small-time smuggler running his family's ship between systems, a single TIE Fighter is more than enough to deal with it, and a pair of them could solve the vast majority of criminal problems that ever occur within the Empire.

Not organized crime, and certainly not a Rebellion fielding military-grade equipment, of course.  But that's obvious - you need your own heavier support and larger forces for those problems.  But they are like 0.00001% of the daily activity in the Empire you'd normally have deployed forces to deal with, so...

6 hours ago, ISD Avenger said:

Vindicator, Acclamator & Venator are obvious omissions from imperial roster.

Not really a question of 'what is missing', per se, so much as what changed by the Disney acquisition.

(Certainly the Vindicator does count, of course - Disney retconned the Interdictor into its own design, while the EU  had it a rebuilt variant of the Vindicator-class.)

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2 hours ago, xanderf said:

That's really not the case, though.  I mean, check 'Star Wars' - escaping the Death Star, the Millennium Falcon...a souped-up smuggling ship with two ace pilots, an actual Jedi, a Force-sensitive gunner, and a pair of droids along for repair and maintenance...had an issue with only four TIE Fighters.

I wouldn't say the Falcon had trouble with them - they didn't take any serious damage and didn't seem to ever be at any major risk of being destroyed. Which isn't surprising because the Empire *wanted* them to get away. They wanted to put up just enough of a fight to make it seem like they were trying to stop them, but not so much that they wouldn't be able to escape.

2 hours ago, xanderf said:

For the typical small-time smuggler running his family's ship between systems, a single TIE Fighter is more than enough to deal with it, and a pair of them could solve the vast majority of criminal problems that ever occur within the Empire.

But that's where the SPC comes in. It can be crewed by as few as four people (i.e. less than the Gozanti + 4 TIE Fighters), but it has the advantage of being able to be used as a customs and inspection ship as well (which the Gozanti would have difficulty with).

To my eye, TIE starfighters were genuine war fighters, meant for use against the Empire's biggest foes (like the Rebellion and organized crime); they have too many impracticalities in their design to be a good patrol ship for day-to-day operations unless you have a dedicated base to support at least a full squadron - it's just not what they're designed for. In Legends, Assault Gunboats filled that niche much better - hyperdrive meant they could easily move from system to system on patrol and pursue ships through hyperspace without having to re-dock on a parent craft, shields made them hardier and less likely to incur damage that would require downtime for repairs, a life-support system meant they could operate away from bases or planetary systems for longer periods of time, an atmospheric design meant they could pursue ships into atmospheres without a noticeable drop in performance, and ion cannons allowed them to disable ships for capture rather than being forced to destroy them. Even with a mobile platform like the Gozanti, TIE Fighters lack those features, which would make them a poor patrol ship for day-to-day law-and-order missions unless they were supported by other vessels.

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19 hours ago, darkknight109 said:

But that's where the SPC comes in. It can be crewed by as few as four people (i.e. less than the Gozanti + 4 TIE Fighters), but it has the advantage of being able to be used as a customs and inspection ship as well (which the Gozanti would have difficulty with).

Honestly I'd say more the reverse is true.  4 people is not enough to be a 'customs and inspection ship'.  Sending two people over for inspection only leaves two to run the ship, and that won't be enough if there IS any kind of trouble.  I'm looking out my window at a couple of our actual coastal defense ships - and the Coast Guard Cutters like the Alert and Steadfast feel a much closer match to watch the Gozanti is, with their crew of 12 officers and 63 enlisted.

And keep in mind that, besides its ability to embark craft, the Gozanti can also directly dock with ships, too...

15410044195_cd3eea0acf_o.jpg

...although I rather suspect it would be more common (as indicated in the first new canon Thrawn novel) for the Gozer to have not a full set of 4 TIE Fighters, but at least one replaced with a TIE Shuttle (or equivalent) for allowing boarding/inspection parties to be deployed while the ship can remain at a distance to monitor the situation.

Which is, again actually, how the Coast Guard also operates.

uscg-cutter-stratton-1500-10-may-2017.jp

Quote

In Legends, Assault Gunboats filled that niche much better - hyperdrive meant they could easily move from system to system on patrol and pursue ships through hyperspace without having to re-dock on a parent craft, shields made them hardier and less likely to incur damage that would require downtime for repairs, a life-support system meant they could operate away from bases or planetary systems for longer periods of time, an atmospheric design meant they could pursue ships into atmospheres without a noticeable drop in performance, and ion cannons allowed them to disable ships for capture rather than being forced to destroy them. Even with a mobile platform like the Gozanti, TIE Fighters lack those features, which would make them a poor patrol ship for day-to-day law-and-order missions unless they were supported by other vessels.

That's a bit like arguing the helicopters or embarked CB-OTH boats are 'poor patrol ships for day to day low and order missions unless they were supported by other vessels'.

Well...yeah.  That's what the Gozanti is there far - IT'S the platform, the embarked craft are just there to extend it's range.

I mean, when you get down to it, the Assault Gunboats are no better than the TIE Fighters on their own for this mission.  Ion or no, ideally, you never shoot at all.  At worst, a 'warning shot across their bow'.  The general idea is that you've surrounded the smuggler/criminal/whatever with enough firepower that they stand down without a fight of any kind - and that's certainly how these things normally go.  Their entire goal was to avoid being stopped and inspected at all - once they have been, the jig is up, and it doesn't really matter what kind of weapons the local law-and-order is fielding.

But either way, once you have the pirates/smugglers/etc...what do you do with them?  Well you've got to arrest them and take them back for trial, which means you need a larger ship either way.

Ergo, the Gozer.

I just think, looking at how real life coastal operations work, the canon Imperial Gozer is just a better match to the role than the SPC was - I think this was a solid miss on the EU side.

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4 hours ago, xanderf said:

Honestly I'd say more the reverse is true.  4 people is not enough to be a 'customs and inspection ship'. 

Then stick more on there. Four is the minimum crew, but that can go up to 20. 

4 hours ago, xanderf said:

I mean, when you get down to it, the Assault Gunboats are no better than the TIE Fighters on their own for this mission.  Ion or no, ideally, you never shoot at all.  At worst, a 'warning shot across their bow'.  The general idea is that you've surrounded the smuggler/criminal/whatever with enough firepower that they stand down without a fight of any kind - and that's certainly how these things normally go. 

The problem is, in Star Wars terms, four TIE Fighters isn't a lot of firepower. Witness how the Millennium Falcon, a private smuggler's ship (albeit a pretty good one, but still just something cobbled together by one spice smuggler using illicit proceeds) was more than a match for that exact pursuing force. An unshielded, weakly armoured TIE Fighter can go down to a single well-placed laser cannon shot, while something like a gunboat can laugh as those shots bounce off its shields. Keep in mind that those four TIE Fighters are collectively packing about as much firepower as a single Assault Gunboat (four TIE Fighters = eight laser cannons, one Assault Gunboat = two laser cannons, two ion cannons, two warhead launchers).

Using real life parallels isn't the greatest for Star Wars because real life drug smugglers aren't usually using boats with enough firepower to shoot back and sink their pursuers.

4 hours ago, xanderf said:

But either way, once you have the pirates/smugglers/etc...what do you do with them?  Well you've got to arrest them and take them back for trial, which means you need a larger ship either way.

And why wouldn't you use the SPC for this? 

If you're speaking strictly about gunboats, those would usually radio back to a base/mothership in another system if they needed backup or a transport to come out and pick something up.

I don't see the gap that you're seeing. If the route is small, out of the way, and unimportant, you use gunboats or SPCs because they're mobile, they have the capacity for independent takedown and capture operations (which a Gozanti with TIE Fighters lacks - if the ship pulls a runner, you have no ion cannons present to stop them, meaning it's "blow them up or let them go" - not great options if the thing you're chasing has sensitive cargo that you'd like to capture) and can operate for extended periods of time away from refuel and repair facilities. If you're looking at a larger area where you feasibly would need more dedicated fighter support, you build a permanent installation and house a squadron of fighters onboard a platform.

I just don't see the niche the Gozanti would occupy between those two situations. Four TIE Fighters just isn't enough of a threat to make it worthwhile.

Edited by darkknight109

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