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The resistance has many more ships.  They even talk about putting out a call for support, but no one responded.  The resistance, and the rebellion for that matter rarely put all their eggs in one basket for the very reason we see in the movie.

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59 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

In Episode 8 the Resistance had 4 capital ships on hand. They had some of their squadrons elsewhere, and potentially (although I don't think it is explicit) other ships elsewhere. Obviously by the end those 4 ships were gone.

Episode 9 could easily include a lot more ships on the Resistance side (and probably will, to give some kind of balance to the large First Order fleet). Which isn't too crazy; the Rebellion went from a frigate, a couple of corvettes and some transports at the end of 5 to several cruisers by 6. Most likely these ships will come from the various local sector or planetary fleets that are still around - but I have a bad feeling the film will fail to explain this or make it clear at all. We'll just be expected to fill in the blanks between the Resistance being a dozen people on the Millennium Falcon (ignoring their other forces not shown in 😎 to a sizeable fleet and large political movement.

IIRC RotJ didn’t do jack **** to explain where all the Mon Cal cruisers came from. All the story we know was filled in outside of the movie. 

Edited by Church14

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11 minutes ago, Church14 said:

IIRC RotJ didn’t do jack **** to explain where all the Mon Cal cruisers came from. All the story we know was filled in outside of the movie. 

It didn't, but I don't think it needed to, because we saw at the end of ESB that they had some ships, and there was no reason to think they wouldn't  have more (although Rogue One spoils the progression a bit). But Episode 8 has established that the Resistance doesn't have many, if any ships. Now some of us I think will be fine with them turning up with a bunch of new ships in the next film (because we can fill in the gaps and know what's going on from the novelisations and broader context), but given how much criticism TFA and TLJ got for leaving these gaps, I don't think it will go down that well with most viewers - it will just be confusing.

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I've heard the "more factions" argument before, but I'm not sure I see how it could really be done without radically changing up how Armada works.

I mean, I wouldn't say either of the current sides has a strong "identity". There's a few generalizations - Imperials tend to have better hull, Rebels tend to have better shields, Imperials tend to have better front arcs, Rebels tend to have better broadsides - but those are generalizations only and they don't have a strong impact on how the faction as a whole plays. It's not like something like, say, Warhammer 40k, where I know that if I'm facing Orks I'm probably going to be dealing with a massive blob of infantry that's going to get right up in my face. Pretty much all playstyles are open to both factions right now, which is a strength as well as a weakness of the game. 

So my question is, if you were going to introduce a third (or fourth or sixth) faction to the game, how would you put it out there so that it plays noticeably different from the Empire and the Rebellion? Or if you don't and opt to make a third faction that's largely the same as the other two, what's the main driver for adding a new faction(s)?

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Its nice to see people talking about new factions again, just because an article about Armada released, telling us that we can deploy fleets with 600 pts and above and playing "Multiplayer"......

Anyway clone wars era would be awesome in Armada. But we should keep in mind that its just dreaming and imagination.

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On 2/8/2019 at 4:09 AM, Draconis80 said:

I would like to see multi faction ships, starports, drydocks, platforms, convoy packs and container fields. Could be some really interesting missions with them and even quicker games.

Absolutely perfect !!!

 

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Small 200 pt games can easily represent some of the fringe factions. 

-Repainted Rebels are pirates

-Mod some TIEs Solar panels and with some repainting, field a small (large for them!) force of the Mining Guild from Rebels.

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On 2/8/2019 at 12:42 PM, Church14 said:

Didn’t somebody do a rundown of capital ships shown onscreen for episodes 4-6? It is a surprisingly small number in most movies.

 

For new ships onscreen:

EP4 was just ISD and CR90?

EP5 was just SSD, GR75, nebulon?

EP7 was Tector, Liberty, Home One, wingless liberty, bra’ha’tok (spelling?)

 

Looking at prequels, I thought the 3rd movie was also where they finally showed a large number of capital ships. 

The problem is that the OT ships were supporting characters in the films - extensions of two of the best villains in cinema.  You saw more of them each film, in the same role, and when they added new ships they were alongside old ones complementing them.  The PT and ST added too many ships and gave them all too little screen time to be memorable.  Padme had 3(!) different ships, a new one each film.  And some how they managed to get uglier every time.  No way the audience was ever going to fall in love with it like the Falcon.

The ST ships are even worse, because all the villains aren’t even the least bit menacing.  They are clowns.  The ships aren’t extensions of a compelling villian, they are souless CGI filler.  Coupled with the fact that Episode VIII somehow managed to make a Star Wars space battle the stupidest, least interesting, more audience frustrating thing since NL Christmas Vacation 2.

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On 2/8/2019 at 9:39 PM, kmanweiss said:

The resistance has many more ships.  They even talk about putting out a call for support, but no one responded.  The resistance, and the rebellion for that matter rarely put all their eggs in one basket for the very reason we see in the movie.

If no one responded then the resistance didn’t have any more ships.

Thing about militaries is, when they are ordered into battle they go - even if it’s hopeless.  The Resistance was asking groups they hoped where sympathetic to join there cause, and they got back a giant “no thanks, losers” from the rest of the galaxy.

Probably because they questioned the sensibility of joining a group that let all their commanders go into battle in cocktail dresses and couldn’t hide from the most inept navy in galactic history in a space literally as large as a galaxy.

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1 hour ago, Bakura83 said:

Thing about militaries is, when they are ordered into battle they go - even if it’s hopeless.  The Resistance was asking groups they hoped where sympathetic to join there cause, and they got back a giant “no thanks, losers” from the rest of the galaxy

Unless we are actively also being shot at. See, thing is we are often taught 2 very basic things. Return fire, dont go out into incoming fire. Both of these are things you see in movies. Frequently you see people run out into a hail of gunfire to get some idiot who's already been shot, to drag them into cover so they can apply dressing or something.

At basic, you're taught dont do this. Because then you have 2 shot people to take care of. In the case of, "This is command requesting reenforcements, we are under attack on Crait at this old warehouse. We need help, we have the Supremacy and like, 20 RSDs in orbit."

The correct response would be along the lines of: "Command this is [everyone], we are busy being shot at. Good luck, may the force be with you."

 

As for more factions, yes. You can easily do generalizations of Republic and CIS. Republic: Good Guns, Specialized Ships, Mediocre shields and hull. CIS: Cheap ships, meh guns, weak shields and hull.

Edited by Ling27

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2 hours ago, Bakura83 said:

If no one responded then the resistance didn’t have any more ships.

Thing about militaries is, when they are ordered into battle they go - even if it’s hopeless.  The Resistance was asking groups they hoped where sympathetic to join there cause, and they got back a giant “no thanks, losers” from the rest of the galaxy.

Probably because they questioned the sensibility of joining a group that let all their commanders go into battle in cocktail dresses and couldn’t hide from the most inept navy in galactic history in a space literally as large as a galaxy.

This trailer for Rise of the Resistance(a canon story) shows the Resistance having a fleet that's obviously different from TLJ fleet. All of these ships may have been acquired after TLJ, but it shows there is a Resistance presence outside of the flotilla we see on screen.

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On 2/7/2019 at 2:29 PM, Admiral Calkins said:

While I think we can have a serious discussion about Clone Wars and Sequel Trilogy factions, I don’t think that the Yuuzhan Vong or a Pirate faction will be good for the game. Seeing Yuuzhan Vong ships on the table may excite some fans of the EU, but will make the game look and feel less like Star Wars to people like myself. Same issue with a Pirate faction, where most of the ships are still unrecognizable to a fairly hard-core Star Wars fan. And I definitely don’t think adding those factions will get people into the game that aren’t already playing.

Honestly, with the release of Clone Wars ships and a few Legends holdouts (Dreadnought, System patrol craft, a bunch of 'civilian/merc' fighters like the Starchaser, Cloakshape, Toscan, etc) you'd have pretty much all the ships you need for a pirate faction already.  I doubt we'd see a Scum faction as an official release, though.

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10 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Honestly, with the release of Clone Wars ships and a few Legends holdouts (Dreadnought, System patrol craft, a bunch of 'civilian/merc' fighters like the Starchaser, Cloakshape, Toscan, etc) you'd have pretty much all the ships you need for a pirate faction already.  I doubt we'd see a Scum faction as an official release, though.

I don’t think numbers are the issue though.  First, I consider myself a big SW fan, yet of the ships you listed, I have only heard of the Dreadnought).  So you have a name recognition / identification issue there.  Second, I can see people having an issue (thematically) with pirates being able to go toe-to-toe with the Empire, which is why a Scum faction seems more suited to X-Wing.

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10 minutes ago, Admiral Calkins said:

I don’t think numbers are the issue though.  First, I consider myself a big SW fan, yet of the ships you listed, I have only heard of the Dreadnought).  So you have a name recognition / identification issue there.  Second, I can see people having an issue (thematically) with pirates being able to go toe-to-toe with the Empire, which is why a Scum faction seems more suited to X-Wing.

Yeah, I'd agree there.  The main reason I see for cobbling together an unofficial scum faction for Armada would be when playing a map-based campaign and wanting to have a "filthy neutral" fleet for your fleet to battle in order to claim a system.

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On 2/8/2019 at 1:39 PM, kmanweiss said:

The resistance has many more ships.  They even talk about putting out a call for support, but no one responded.  The resistance, and the rebellion for that matter rarely put all their eggs in one basket for the very reason we see in the movie.

They don't, although you could be forgiven for thinking they did, because Episode VII never really bothers to explain the difference between the New Republic and the Resistance, nor why both exist (which they really should have, because it makes things a lot less confusing).

Cliff notes version is that after Endor the Empire was beaten back by the Rebellion, eventually fleeing to unexplored regions of space where they were assumed to have been so depleted that they would eventually just die out. Unbeknownst to them, the Empire happened to discover some very resource-rich planets, which they used to grow and rebuild, reforming into the First Order. Meanwhile, a war-weary galaxy re-established the Republic and the Rebellion disbanded. When the First Order re-emerged, most of the Republic supported a sort of uneasy "If you don't mess with us, we won't mess with you," truce. A small number insisted that it was just a matter of time before the First Order made a play to take over the galaxy and advocating re-arming and taking the fight to them. These people were the ones who formed the Resistance. They aren't directly supported by the Republic (hence why they have a tiny fleet and only a few dozen starfighters - that's all they could cobble together via private donations) but they are aligned with their goals and interests.

The people whom the Resistance were calling at the end of Episode VIII wasn't the remainder of the Resistance (who could all fit on the Falcon at that point), it was the rest of the Republic, trying to let them know that "Hey, there are still people out here fighting against the First Order, please join our cause so we can actually unite and have some hope of winning this thing."

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9 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Yeah, I'd agree there.  The main reason I see for cobbling together an unofficial scum faction for Armada would be when playing a map-based campaign and wanting to have a "filthy neutral" fleet for your fleet to battle in order to claim a system.

Definitely something worthy of looking into for a homebrew, narrative campaign.  Not sure if it was on this thread or another, but someone mentioned having a "pirate" faction that could only be used in the Task Force format (200 points).  This seems more thematically appropriate, but not sure why they would put ships in the game that people couldn't use in 400-point tournaments.  Not sure.  Maybe just a card-only expansion that included "Pirate" Commanders (Hondo Commander card!), Officers, and ship titles for ships already in the game. Just a thought.

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29 minutes ago, darkknight109 said:

The people whom the Resistance were calling at the end of Episode VIII wasn't the remainder of the Resistance (who could all fit on the Falcon at that point), it was the rest of the Republic, trying to let them know that "Hey, there are still people out here fighting against the First Order, please join our cause so we can actually unite and have some hope of winning this thing."

There were other Resistance people at the time, they were just busy on other missions (the novelisation makes that clear). Snap Wexley being an example.

It's also worth nothing that the First Order isn't the remnant of the Empire. Without the Emperor the Empire fractured, but the biggest part was the bit that stayed in the main part of the Galaxy, surrendered to the Republic, and gradually hid in its own little corner of the Core (so some of the old Empire is still out there). The First Order was part of Palpatine's "Contingency" plan to cut away the corrupt, bureaucratic and wasteful parts of the Empire that he'd inherited from the Old Republic, and set the True Believers up in the Unknown Regions, while leaving mass destruction and chaos behind - but that plan got screwed up by the heroes in the Aftermath books (the Republic wasn't crippled, the remnants of the Empire were able to get together long enough to surrender, and key players in the Contingency were killed).

The result was that the group that did escape into the Unknown Regions was relatively leaderless - and in their desperation they turned to someone they found out there who was vaguely Emperor-shaped; Snoke.

That's why every part of the First Order looks like the Empire but not quite working properly. Snoke is no Palpatine, Hux is no Tarkin, Ren is no Vader, the First Order is no Empire. Hux is a fool - specially trained from childhood to be a fanatical leader (good public speaker, inspiring to crowds) but tactically useless and - due to his training being cut short (only a child when the Empire fell) emotionally unstable. The First Order does have a few experienced ex-Imperial officers left (e.g. Captain Kennedy in TLJ), and they try to do the best job they can but nothing quite works because they look down on Hux but still feel they have to follow his orders (however stupid they are). Snoke inspires some fear, but nothing like the fear and leadership Palpatine had (can you imagine Palpatine having to throw an officer around on their bridge? Just look at how afraid Jerjerrod was at the mention of his presence).

The First Order was able to grow because it kept in the shadows, nowhere near the Republic. Even when rumours of it did reach the Republic, they were unwilling (due to big military stuff and infiltration from the FO) and unable (due to the Republic-Empire Treaty forbidding territorial expansion/military action outside the agreed on borders) to intervene. Then Senator (or Representative?) Leia tried to convince them otherwise, but lost - gave up her political career to set up a Resistance - officially unsanctioned by the Republic, but quietly supported by some (hence picking up some old Republic starships and fighters, and some key Republic leaders).

Anyway. As for fleets, the New Republic decided not to have a strong, central Government (viewing that as the bad thing of the Empire and Old Republic). So while there are lots of ships out there, only a few were under the command of the Republic (mostly destroyed in the attack on the Hosnian System, where the Republic was based then) - most were under control of the local systems. And without the Republic's leadership, they're not leaving their home systems - not when there's a dangerous enemy out there with a significant fleet. It was some of those fleets General Leia was hoping would come to their rescue on Crait.

Without a Resistance (or Republic) to lead the opposition to the First Order, each individual system should fall fairly easily.

The First Order is supposed to be scary because of its fanaticism, and its military power. But it is also supposed to be fairly incompetent, because of its messed up leadership and lack of experienced officers or troops (relying on brainwashed press-ganged locals).

[Source: the Aftermath Trilogy and the novelisations of TFA and TLJ (the latter in particular goes into so much more detail than the film does).]

[Also... I'd forgotten about that Rise of the Resistance thing - woo for MC80s still being around!]

Edited by Grumbleduke

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2 hours ago, Ling27 said:

Both of these are things you see in movies.

I am not aware of a single reference to other actively engaged military units in episode VIII.  The First Order seem to think they are about to wipe out the Resistance, the Resistance seem to think they are about to be wiped out.

Its nice head canon, but completely unsupported by the films.

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1 minute ago, Bakura83 said:

I am not aware of a single reference to other actively engaged military units in episode VIII.  The First Order seem to think they are about to wipe out the Resistance, the Resistance seem to think they are about to be wiped out.

Its nice head canon, but completely unsupported by the films.

I never said in my post that there were more resistance cells. I just disputed the fact that you dont just rush to someone elses aid, because that gets more people killed if you dont out number them.

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2 hours ago, Quadro28 said:

This trailer for Rise of the Resistance(a canon story) shows the Resistance having a fleet that's obviously different from TLJ fleet. All of these ships may have been acquired after TLJ, but it shows there is a Resistance presence outside of the flotilla we see on screen.

1) No one knows when that is set.

2) It’s a THEME PARK RIDE.  I highly doubt the script writers decisions for Episode VIII we’re taking the story for a theme park ride into account.

”This story makes no sense.”

”It’s ok - remember the ride that hasn’t been designed yet and is opening in three years time?”

”Oh yeah that’s right that does explain this satisfactorily.  Brilliant.”

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4 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

I never said in my post that there were more resistance cells. I just disputed the fact that you dont just rush to someone elses aid, because that gets more people killed if you dont out number them.

Thanks, that was obviously my main point.

👍

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54 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

There were other Resistance people at the time, they were just busy on other missions (the novelisation makes that clear). Snap Wexley being an example.

It's also worth nothing that the First Order isn't the remnant of the Empire. Without the Emperor the Empire fractured, but the biggest part was the bit that stayed in the main part of the Galaxy, surrendered to the Republic, and gradually hid in its own little corner of the Core (so some of the old Empire is still out there). The First Order was part of Palpatine's "Contingency" plan to cut away the corrupt, bureaucratic and wasteful parts of the Empire that he'd inherited from the Old Republic, and set the True Believers up in the Unknown Regions, while leaving mass destruction and chaos behind - but that plan got screwed up by the heroes in the Aftermath books (the Republic wasn't crippled, the remnants of the Empire were able to get together long enough to surrender, and key players in the Contingency were killed).

The result was that the group that did escape into the Unknown Regions was relatively leaderless - and in their desperation they turned to someone they found out there who was vaguely Emperor-shaped; Snoke.

That's why every part of the First Order looks like the Empire but not quite working properly. Snoke is no Palpatine, Hux is no Tarkin, Ren is no Vader, the First Order is no Empire. Hux is a fool - specially trained from childhood to be a fanatical leader (good public speaker, inspiring to crowds) but tactically useless and - due to his training being cut short (only a child when the Empire fell) emotionally unstable. The First Order does have a few experienced ex-Imperial officers left (e.g. Captain Kennedy in TLJ), and they try to do the best job they can but nothing quite works because they look down on Hux but still feel they have to follow his orders (however stupid they are). Snoke inspires some fear, but nothing like the fear and leadership Palpatine had (can you imagine Palpatine having to throw an officer around on their bridge? Just look at how afraid Jerjerrod was at the mention of his presence).

The First Order was able to grow because it kept in the shadows, nowhere near the Republic. Even when rumours of it did reach the Republic, they were unwilling (due to big military stuff and infiltration from the FO) and unable (due to the Republic-Empire Treaty forbidding territorial expansion/military action outside the agreed on borders) to intervene. Then Senator (or Representative?) Leia tried to convince them otherwise, but lost - gave up her political career to set up a Resistance - officially unsanctioned by the Republic, but quietly supported by some (hence picking up some old Republic starships and fighters, and some key Republic leaders).

Anyway. As for fleets, the New Republic decided not to have a strong, central Government (viewing that as the bad thing of the Empire and Old Republic). So while there are lots of ships out there, only a few were under the command of the Republic (mostly destroyed in the attack on the Hosnian System, where the Republic was based then) - most were under control of the local systems. And without the Republic's leadership, they're not leaving their home systems - not when there's a dangerous enemy out there with a significant fleet. It was some of those fleets General Leia was hoping would come to their rescue on Crait.

Without a Resistance (or Republic) to lead the opposition to the First Order, each individual system should fall fairly easily.

The First Order is supposed to be scary because of its fanaticism, and its military power. But it is also supposed to be fairly incompetent, because of its messed up leadership and lack of experienced officers or troops (relying on brainwashed press-ganged locals).

[Source: the Aftermath Trilogy and the novelisations of TFA and TLJ (the latter in particular goes into so much more detail than the film does).]

[Also... I'd forgotten about that Rise of the Resistance thing - woo for MC80s still being around!]

I wish this (and what darkknight109 mentioned) had been shown a tad in the films. I just couldn’t tell if the new trilogy’s staus quo had a backstory that made sense or not — or any at all! I had guessed that the worlds the First Order had been threatening at the beginning of TFA were outside the Republic or on the fringes, so Leia was trying to lend some military support while the rest of the Republic wasn’t ready to get embroiled in something that wasn’t its fight. But I was just trying to pull a reasonable explaination out of my ***.

(Somewhere, maybe even this forum, I read someone grousing about TFA who suggested that it would have been better if the Starkiller Base had been an old Empire project that a faction in the Republic finishes as a weapon against the First Order (maybe as a way to protect the Republic without remilitarizing because, ironically, that’d remind everyone of the Empire too much). Then the First Order seizes it and uses it against the Republic. I thought that change woukd have managed to include a lot of the kind of background the films failed to discuss. (I think in this “what if” version, Leia was for fighting the First Order conventionally but against the super weapon project.)

Now, I *get* that the FO is full of wannabes. That seemed pretty clear to me and maybe even like a deliberate choice. I dunno how much I like it, but I appreciate that it makes sense and allows the FO to be a lot like the Empire but still have a different tone. It fits the idea of Kylo Ren’s character who is also clearly a wannabe, desperate to fill bigger shoes. It’s compelling in him (to me)... but the First Order somehow lacks something that made the Empire cool, in its evil way. Maturity, maybe? It’s hard to feel pathos for an organization.

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From what I understand of new canon, Starkiller Base was what inspired the Death Star, and had already existed for a few thousand years. It was just too big to use to terrorise people covertly (as you can see its shot across the galaxy), so Palp built a smaller version.

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1 hour ago, Bakura83 said:

1) No one knows when that is set.

2) It’s a THEME PARK RIDE.  I highly doubt the script writers decisions for Episode VIII we’re taking the story for a theme park ride into account.

”This story makes no sense.”

”It’s ok - remember the ride that hasn’t been designed yet and is opening in three years time?”

”Oh yeah that’s right that does explain this satisfactorily.  Brilliant.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/missingwords/status/1063958128411074560?s=21

My quick search shows that:

1) It specifically takes place after TLJ

2) The story is as canon as a theme park ride can be.

This seems similar to the OT. Who had any idea the rebellion was larger than what was on Alderaan?

Yet somehow, between large time jumps and a desire to sell more, cool looking toys, the rebellion turned out to be a galaxy spanning organization with all kinds of cool space ships.

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