Ok, Commanders and Operatives are good now...

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

3 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

You mean besides the completely different uniform, armor, weapons, identified branch, tactics, and attitude?  Nothing, I guess.  How silly of me to think little things like that should have an impact. 

And there's huge thematic differences. Such as but not limited to: one is OT/GCW era like the the rest of my Legion figures, and one isn't.

The SOLO troopers wear more than a breastplate and gasmask compared to navy troops. They've got shoulders, upper canons, and shin armor too. Looks like a backplate too. Basically a suit of half-plate. I have enough armored imperials, as such I won't buy mudtroopers, I will buy navy troopers however as I don't have any squads like them for Legion.

Overall I guess all of my frustrations with Legion stem from me liking it too much. As much as I complain my big gripes boil down to this. There's just not enough Legion stuff. So it's a smashing success with me, if I think about it that way. I mean I like this game enough that with only two factions, I'm painting four armies for it.

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by TauntaunScout

[Alpha17 2,853]

45 minutes ago, Mep said:

@Alpha17 You might be missing the fact that this is a game. Standard corps units are vanilla and that is why you can take 6 of them and must have 3. There is enough variation already with the standard corp units that you have choices. The fact you can take up to 6 means they shouldn't get too flavorful as people can really exploit them. I am sure FFG will make as many toys as possible so they can make more money. So rest assured there will be more. However the variety in units is really going to be seen outside of the normal infantry and they will be limited in both actual numbers that can be taken and by how many points they cost. You're not suppose to have 6 sniper units on the board or a dozen speeder bikes. You do need to have at least a dozen vanilla troopers though. The game is pretty good that way.

Other games have included units with far fewer differences in their framework.  Why can't Legion?   What would be the flaw in having more variations in corps units?  Nothing I've suggested would make them game breaking, nor would it eliminate the need or desire for Special Forces?  Nothing I've suggested would give "6 sniper units" or a "dozen speeder bikes."  At most, assuming you want to take my suggestion for Shoretroopers as an example, give you 6 units with a DMR (at most, still assuming you're combining Stormtroopers and Scouts as inspiration) and then the flaws inherent in light infantry (which could range from higher cost, poor defense, smaller numbers, etc)  Hardly game breaking, but fitting with the films, lore, logic, and military force structures.  In fact, following this idea, but then releasing them as SF would threaten existing units of Scoutroopers far more than releasing them as Corps would stormtroopers.   If it was necessary, even a limitation on how many of certain (even generic) units could be fielded wouldn't be hard; FFG is doing it already with X-Wing, so why not Legion?  Why does Legion, "a miniatures game of thrilling infantry combat in the Star Wars universe," have to ignore everyone but the poor, bloody infantry?  What sense does that make? 

21 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

But are those differences significant enough to register in the grainy snapshot that is a gaming stat card? In historical gaming there were tons of differences in a lot of real world units, that aren't worth measuring in unique wargame stats.

And there's huge thematic differences. Such as but not limited to: one is OT/GCW era like the the rest of my Legion figures, and one isn't.

The SOLO troopers wear more than a breastplate and gasmask compared to navy troops. They've got shoulders, upper canons, and shin armor too. Looks like a backplate too. Basically a suit of half-plate. I have enough armored imperials, as such I won't buy mudtroopers, I will buy navy troopers however as I don't have any squads like them for Legion.

Overall I guess all of my frustrations with Legion stem from me liking it too much. As much as I complain my big gripes boil down to this. There's just not enough Legion stuff. So it's a smashing success with me, if I think about it that way. I mean I like this game enough that with only two factions, I'm painting four armies for it.

7

I would say yes, even if the differences are relatively minor.  Legion has ample room for minor differences in stats to be made, from points cost to weapon die, surges to offense and defense, and keywords or their lack thereof.  I mean, if there can be a substantial difference in one lightsaber to the next, why can't there be a difference in units of guys that are equipped, trained, motivated, and led differently?

As for the Mudtroopers to not fit thematically, I humbly disagree.  Disney's films have gone for a very hard separation between eras; the start of Rogue One should have featured Phase II Clone troopers, not Deathtroopers, and Stormtroopers shouldn't have been on Corellia in Solo.  Yet, they were.  So, following the new canon's design philosophy, mudtroopers fit just fine in the GCW, because apparently it was started by a biker chick in Solo.  Or something.  As for not buying them, that's perfectly fine by me; I won't be buying half of the things I've seen previews for recently, but I won't hate on those that do.  All I ask is for more variation and not a rigid adherence to named characters at the expense of some of the most interesting units they could release. 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Alpha17

[Mep 2,291]

@alpha117 FFG loves to sell plastic toys, so yes, eventually we will see more corp units. Does the game need more pawns right now? No. Pretty happy with the choices we have for pawns. They are pretty good. Better than the choices we have for Bishops or Castles. We do seem to be getting plenty of Kings and Queens and Knights though.

[TylerTT 1,295]

We have a quartet of  Chewbacca FFG clearly plays fast and loose.  

[Alpha17 2,853]

9 hours ago, Mep said:

@alpha117 FFG loves to sell plastic toys, so yes, eventually we will see more corp units. Does the game need more pawns right now? No. Pretty happy with the choices we have for pawns. They are pretty good. Better than the choices we have for Bishops or Castles. We do seem to be getting plenty of Kings and Queens and Knights though.

We have two choices for pawns, two choices for bishops, and will shortly have two for rooks.  (assuming we're talking corps, support and heavy support.)  I would welcome additions to ANY of these areas as opposed to more Royalty or Knights.  More infantry options in a game of "thrilling infantry combat" would seem to be in order, however. 

[Derrault 1,091]

17 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

The helmet and flak vest are apparently pretty good if Veers has Red Defense, where as rebels and their sweet Leather Jackets and Coats are only White. 

That breastplate probably can stop/absorb a laser, presumably cloth/leather can’t.

@Alpha17 it’s the same chest plate (with a few things pasted on) and helmet (with a mask in the gap). Take a closer look. Veers in a cape.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Derrault

[JediPartisan 810]

We’ve had a year of one release per month, which is a hellish schedule to keep up for any company, even if all these units were planned out before release (and I don’t think they all were). Even with that crazy release schedule we only have 2 of each of most of the rank and file. Yes FF did release more commanders than anything else, but if they haven’t many would have complained, “where’s so and so”. Even now, we haven’t seen units like Lando, or the Inqusitor etc, and people are asking for that. To say, “where are the other units” is a little unfair. Really we only have 4 commanders and one generic that was a part of the Specialist pack and generally has a different purpose. I think, with the introduction of Sabine and Bossk, Legion is right where it needs to be to introduce the Clone Wars. Sure we could use another corpse unit, but keep in mind those units can still be released at their normal pace of a release per quarter, while CW will probably continue at the breakneck speed of a unit per month.

There are only 3 designers for Legion, and I much as I and others may complain about a given unit, it’s hard to come out with something new and interesting every month and keep everything balanced not only strategically, but also balanced in unit diversity. Sometimes, when creating something, you have to go where inspiration leads and if you are more inspired by named characters, then you’ll be able to put something out that’s new and exciting more easily. They will get around to adding those corpse units, it will unfortunately take time.

I have actually been worried lately when I think that soon we won’t get the one a month release. I am going to go into withdrawal! At that point it will take even more time to see the units you (and I) want. So to sound like a broken record (dam I’m old - I can remember what that sounds like), it will take time and we need to be patient.

[Alpha17 2,853]

3 hours ago, Derrault said:

That breastplate probably can stop/absorb a laser, presumably cloth/leather can’t.

@Alpha17 it’s the same chest plate (with a few things pasted on) and helmet (with a mask in the gap). Take a closer look. Veers in a cape.

It's similar, but it's not the same armor.  
Mudtrooper:
http://databank.501st.com/databank/File:Tx_mud_chest.jpg

Veers:
https://databank.501st.com/databank/File:AT_AT_Commander_Chest.jpg

It follows the design style of the other Imperial plates while being completely different.  The back pieces are even more distinct.  Different armor, different uniform underneath, different weapons being used. 

 

And yes, we've been extremely lucky with the pace of releases they've done thus far.  I would have preferred them to focus more on the infantry in their infantry combat game, but will accept their interest in doing other things, as long as they don't forget the rest of the game at the expense of named characters. 

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

19 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Other games have included units with far fewer differences in their framework.  Why can't Legion?  

The biggest factor now is time. Other games have existed a lot longer.

19 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

As for the Mudtroopers to not fit thematically, I humbly disagree.  Disney's films have gone for a very hard separation between eras; the start of Rogue One should have featured Phase II Clone troopers, not Deathtroopers, and Stormtroopers shouldn't have been on Corellia in Solo.  Yet, they were.  So, following the new canon's design philosophy, mudtroopers fit just fine in the GCW,

Disney can wave a hand and change this stuff we've meticulously deduced whenever they want, and seem willing to do so. Mudtroopers weren't in the theatrical release of ROTJ, so I don't want any in my Endor collection of Imperials.

Though I'd rather any new corps unit was released than almost anything else at this point. Rebels are sorely lacking a corps unit in snow uniforms. Imperials are sorely lacking not-stormtrooper corps units.  Without getting into entirely new factions, I'd basically like to buy the following as corps:

• Ewoks
• Hoth rebels
• Imperial Navy troopers

And could plausibly see the following be released as corps and is some cases would buy:

• Imperial army by any name or uniform
• Bespin guards
• A squad of cantina/palace aliens
• Dewbacks but they'd probably be non-corps
• Tauntauns: see dewbacks
• Pilots but they'll probably be limited to use as upgrade cards or not-corps

I don't think releasing all of the above would break the game if the playtesting is diligent enough. Which I have no reason to believe it would be. Honestly Legion isn't particularly well balanced among wargames as it is, so what have we got to lose?

[Mep 2,291]

7 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

We have two choices for pawns, two choices for bishops, and will shortly have two for rooks.  (assuming we're talking corps, support and heavy support.)  I would welcome additions to ANY of these areas as opposed to more Royalty or Knights.  More infantry options in a game of "thrilling infantry combat" would seem to be in order, however. 

Yeah, just had a release a couple weeks ago for infantry upgrades.

[Thalandar 69]

On 2/8/2019 at 6:53 AM, thepopemobile100 said:

I meant that most named characters can't do much to an AT-ST. I regularly bring a pair of laser cannon rts to deal with them

um, in the game I just played, I played the chewie card that works with Leia, which adds his ranged weapon to her attack pool. that's 3 black, 2 red, 2 white, impact 1, pierce 2. That was 5 wounds to the at ST. Followed that up with 2 squads of fleet troopers and down came the At ST.

 

[Derrault 1,091]

3 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

The biggest factor now is time. Other games have existed a lot longer.

Disney can wave a hand and change this stuff we've meticulously deduced whenever they want, and seem willing to do so. Mudtroopers weren't in the theatrical release of ROTJ, so I don't want any in my Endor collection of Imperials.

Though I'd rather any new corps unit was released than almost anything else at this point. Rebels are sorely lacking a corps unit in snow uniforms. Imperials are sorely lacking not-stormtrooper corps units.  Without getting into entirely new factions, I'd basically like to buy the following as corps:

• Ewoks
• Hoth rebels
• Imperial Navy troopers

And could plausibly see the following be released as corps and is some cases would buy:

• Imperial army by any name or uniform
• Bespin guards
• A squad of cantina/palace aliens
• Dewbacks but they'd probably be non-corps
• Tauntauns: see dewbacks
• Pilots but they'll probably be limited to use as upgrade cards or not-corps

I don't think releasing all of the above would break the game if the playtesting is diligent enough. Which I have no reason to believe it would be. Honestly Legion isn't particularly well balanced among wargames as it is, so what have we got to lose?

Legion seems quite balanced, all things considered. What miniature war game do you have in mind and consider well balanced, if any?

One reason to focus on commanders, besides the many already given, is that commanders have a much bigger impact on how a game is played thanks, not just to unit card abilities, but also the command cards.

[thepopemobile100 977]

2 hours ago, Thalandar said:

um, in the game I just played, I played the chewie card that works with Leia, which adds his ranged weapon to her attack pool. that's 3 black, 2 red, 2 white, impact 1, pierce 2. That was 5 wounds to the at ST. Followed that up with 2 squads of fleet troopers and down came the At ST.

 

I'm glad that you were able to swing that, however the odds of rolling that many criticals on that few of dice even with surge is unlikely at best. It's not something to rely on especially since it means getting the frailest named commander range 2 of, depending on loadout, can kill them in one blast.

[Thalandar 69]

10 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I'm glad that you were able to swing that, however the odds of rolling that many criticals on that few of dice even with surge is unlikely at best. It's not something to rely on especially since it means getting the frailest named commander range 2 of, depending on loadout, can kill them in one blast.

I kill AT STs with fleet troopers with scatter guns.  Its all about the number of dice and peirce

Edited February 10, 2019 by Thalandar

[thepopemobile100 977]

4 minutes ago, Thalandar said:

I kill AT STs with fleet troopers with scatter guns.  Its all about the number of dice and peirce

Unless you're running impact grenades, you're averaging less than 2 damage on the ST per attack. So 6 attacks on average for a kill on the ST with fleets. It's doable, but you're almost better off with z-6 so you can shoot from further away and not risk being snapped out of existence.

[Thalandar 69]

actually the math is with me on this, the more dice you roll the better chance you have of critting

[thepopemobile100 977]

1 minute ago, Thalandar said:

actually the math is with me on this, the more dice you roll the better chance you have of critting

Yes, the math is with you. You're adding one extra die when going from rebel troops to fleet troops. Both still average less than 2 damage. Each die still only has a 1/8 chance of rolling a critical.

[Thalandar 69]

2 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Yes, the math is with you. You're adding one extra die when going from rebel troops to fleet troops. Both still average less than 2 damage. Each die still only has a 1/8 chance of rolling a critical.

Wrong, I am adding 1 extra dice per model.  10 white dice and 2 red with pierce 1..oh I see what your saying, 5 black dice and 6 white, just add one. gottcha

Edited February 10, 2019 by Thalandar

[thepopemobile100 977]

3 minutes ago, Thalandar said:

Wrong, I am adding 1 extra dice per model.  10 white dice and 2 red with pierce 1..oh I see what your saying, 5 black dice and 6 white, just add one. gottcha

Just as a heads up if you're consistently getting into range 2 of an ST with fleets, it's a good investment to throw on impact grenades as it's not much farther

[Tubb 163]

2 hours ago, Mep said:

Yeah, just had a release a couple weeks ago for infantry upgrades.

But they are only upgrades for the same infantry units. And if you don't want to mess with diferent weathers in your thematic imperial army, you only got ONE option: the humble stormtrooper. I don't want to mix snowtroopers and regular stormtroopers in my army, they are out of place... I'd prefer at least a navy trooper unit or an imperial army one rather than ANOTHER character... we already got Bossk, Palpatine, Vader, Veers, Leia, Han, Luke, Fett, Chewie, Sabine, Krennic, Jyn Erso... I really feel slightly fooled with their promise of an "infantry game" turned into a skirmish action combat between heroes... or I don't understand the sheer amount of characters offered. I simply didn't expect this. I know it is fine to have options, but all this months waiting for a regular troop option are making me a sad panda... at least they should rework the stormtroopers to make them multioptions and poseable, and i'd buy four squads right now!!

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Legion seems quite balanced, all things considered. What miniature war game do you have in mind and consider well balanced, if any?

The heavy weapons and big vehicles aren't priced in a balanced way. The scoring conditions aren't written in a balanced fashion.

There's a list of games that I think are balanced but naming names on a forum will lead to much wailing and gnashing of teeth. I'll discuss them via PM if you want.

Quote

One reason to focus on commanders, besides the many already given, is that commanders have a much bigger impact on how a game is played thanks, not just to unit card abilities, but also the command cards.

That's the main reason to focus on them yes. The command cards are probably my least favorite aspect about the actual experience of playing though. So that's fine and good but I won't pretend to be excited for releasing extra commanders so I can engage in that more. Creating a whole game mechanic for exploiting the order of operations, in a game of this scale and style, feels very shoehorned in to me.

Edited February 10, 2019 by TauntaunScout

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

1 hour ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Just as a heads up if you're consistently getting into range 2 of an ST with fleets, it's a good investment to throw on impact grenades as it's not much farther

My rebels take grenades no matter what. In case they get the chance to sabotage imperial infrastructure.

[MarekMandalore 768]

I’m good with commanders and operatives being the priority for FFG in terms of options- more than any corps, special force or support unit, the commanders shape the play style of an army. 

I haven’t seen nearly as much attention given to fleet trooper lists or snow trooper lists as I have to “Wonder Twins” or Veers, etc. 

Between keywords, morale, and other abilities, plus command cards, the commanders and the operatives lend the strongest hand in making list diversity, in my opinion. 

Do I want to see more corps options? Let’s say I won’t object when they come. I’m content with what we have. I’d like to see more types of heavies to add to corp units, and more types of specialist to modify the function of units. However, Stormtroopers and Snowtroopers are all I would have expected for Imperial corps, and the Rebels I could only really ask to see Hoth troopers to balance the snows, thematically. (Even there, though, I don’t imagine there being a huge difference between the function of Hoth troopers and the rest. Maybe the keyword from the fleets, and the A-280 rifles of the regular troopers...)

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

12 hours ago, MarekMandalore said:

I’m good with commanders and operatives being the priority for FFG in terms of options- more than any corps, special force or support unit, the commanders shape the play style of an army.

Even though tweaking commanders is not my approach to gaming at all, I agree with this in theory. Releasing a new commander, or buying one as a player, is hugely economical compared to other things so I get why we have so many, and I don't broadly object to them existing. I mean this is part of what I pitch people on Legion for being so cheap: You can still get by with nothing but 2 or 3 core sets, and then just keep up with $15 commanders and operatives, and you can hold your own in competition and/or keep your homebrew story-based scenarios constantly changing. The new upgrade cards are fun the day you open it, and the single model won't take novice painters very long to get into the field compared to a squad.

But with 5 of 2 commander slots filled, I think we're good for now. Heck, 6+ of 2 slots are filled, when you consider the non-unique commander. There's a point of diminishing returns to anything, including adding commanders/operatives to Legion's figure line. When the game was brand new, it was efficient get a lot of them out fast. If you include what's been announced, we're getting close to diminish returns I think. Pretty soon, any new commander's utility will be counterbalanced by the creation undesirable loopholes, such as the infamous ugnaught swarms. The other possible loss through more commanders/operatives is undesirable power creep: if a new commander's stats drive old commanders obsolete, we don't really have "more" commanders in the game.

Lack of aesthetic choices in models is what's keeping my wallet closed to Legion right now. Mostly lack of choice in corps in particular. Why would I buy a bunch of supporting units for an army I can't purchase the backbone of? All the king's command cards and all the king's keywords can't open my wallet now that I have enough stuff to play with. The only commanders I can 100% say I'll buy for SURE now, are a rebel in a Hoth coat and an ewok.

[Tubb 163]

6 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Lack of aesthetic choices in models is what's keeping my wallet closed to Legion right now. Mostly lack of choice in corps in particular. Why would I buy a bunch of supporting units for an army I can't purchase the backbone of? All the king's command cards and all the king's keywords can't open my wallet now that I have enough stuff to play with.

Exactly what's happening to me, my wallet is closed although I like some commander options... but I don't want to have six of them before having enough corps. And I don't want to buy another stormtrooper squad with the same pose AGAIN.