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Aurelus

Ok, Commanders and Operatives are good now...

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The core troopers are not where I want the bulk of my optional unit selection. 

They require the most investment to swap out and they need to be the most basic units as bumping their complexity raises the complexity of the entire game. 

So Corp units have the least design space and Cost the most to change.

more characters please.

Also more character options does not mean more characters on the table. 

I only want echo base troopers and mud troopers.

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7 hours ago, Thalandar said:

Um, I've been taking out At-st's out regularly with fleet troopers and at-rt's, no problems.  It's all a matter of the number of dice you throw

I meant that most named characters can't do much to an AT-ST. I regularly bring a pair of laser cannon rts to deal with them

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14 hours ago, Tubb said:

I still think that it would be nice to have a way to scale the game the way lord of he rings strategy battles did. With that game system you could easily play a mission with an scenario where a couple of heroes were matched against a small group of foes, with small minis count and specialized objectives, and at the same time you had the option to play a whole BIG battle of helms deep with hundreds of soldiers and just about five or six generic commanders, or anything between... even you were able to do a rank and files game with some additional rules. I want that flexibility in Legion, I'd like to play just troops and generics commanders... and I'd love persons that prefer the group of heroes being able to play also.

This is precisely what I’ve always wanted out of a Star Wars miniatures game. WEG D6 came a bit closer than Legion, but honestly, any time I find myself thinking about how fun it would be to play a miniatures game set in x fictional universe, all I ever actually want is a game that can scale up and down just as you’ve described. Some of my fondest memories of playing the LotR game, way back when the Fellowship edition first came out eighteen years ago, are of tense little skirmishes with a small handful of models on each side—Aragorn and the four hobbits facing the Ringwraiths at Weathertop, for instance, or the Fellowship fighting its way out of Balin’s tomb. And then you could turn right around and play the Battle of Pelenor Fields using the same set of rules!

I want that level of flexibility in a Star Wars game. I want to be able to play the Spectres rescuing Kanan from his prison cell on Mustafar, and then turn around and recreate the Battle of Hoth right out of the same rulebook.

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15 hours ago, buckero0 said:

Well, when they announced the game, the designers went to great length to emphasize that the focus of the game would be the NAMED commanders and that the armies would change radically in their playstyle based on which commander you took.  I kind of think they've been doing what they said they would.

 

Games can be balanced to allow for more than one playstyle to plausibly win. If you don't try to please all of the people some of the time, you won't get all of the people's money.

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1 hour ago, Lord Ashram said:

Yeah, count me in on the “we don’t need that many corps units” side.  Imperials should be stormtroopers.  Lots of stormtroopers.   Maybe Imperial army guys.  That’s about all we’ve seen in any numbers.

 

heroes are where it’s at.

Or Imperial navy troopers, "mud" troopers aren't really in the GCW movies. Navy troopers are pretty much required for a lot of OT visually themed armies: there's only two major ground battles in the OT and one of them had a lot of navy troops present. On the Death Star they seemed to all carry guns around all the time. "Imperial Marines" is a better way to view them than "Imperial Sailors" I've always thought. I want imp navy troops and Hoth* rebels to give us 3 corps per side then I think it'll be fine on OT corps units. But I'd like boxes of corps expansions similar to the officers. Make a box of 4 heavy weapons or whatever. I was kinda surprised they didn't make the e-web and Atgar as standalone canons on bases (no crew) that could be taken as a squad upgrade. Put a regular trooper in base contact with them.

Personally I'm building two imperial armies: Hoth and Endor. Hoth is pretty much all buttoned up for now. My Endor army has two AT-ST's borrowed from my Hoth collection, plus some speeder bikes and 3x stormtroopers. Led by either Darth Vader and a box of operatives. Now, I'd add a few squads of Navy Troops to that Endor themed force but I would not add SOLO troops. I suspect we will see naval troops just because the operatives box gave a nod to them.

Plus, imperial navy troops are even easier to paint than stormtroopers, for the artistically challenged! One blob of pink or brown on the face is a small price to pay for the rest of the entire model being black with two silver blobs.

*We all know they won't actually be called Hoth or Echo Base, because unlike IA, this game doesn't use proper nouns in it's squad titles.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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My thoughts, for what they're worth...

On the topic of Commanders and Operatives:

While there will always be generic options (e.g., 50pt Imperial Officer), this is where you'll mostly see your named characters.  These named characters will be designed with a theme and if you play against that theme, they're probably not going to perform well for you.  Vader wants to move forward, batting away ranged shots and then close in for the kill.  He doesn't really want to sit in the backfield and use his courage value to keep your gun line from panicking.  Veers wants to hang back, hand out some aim tokens and generally avoid combat.  Running him forward to get into pistol range is a fool's errand.  In other words, Vader's gonna Vader and Veers is gonna Veers.  Releasing more Commanders and Operatives gives us more ways to play with Commanders and Operatives.  Vader doesn't really have more options than he did when the game released and he plays more or less exactly the same today as then.

On the topic of Corps units:

We don't need many Corps units.  We need more unit upgrades, and those will come with time.  When Stormtroopers released, you could add a handful of options, but you couldn't really change their role.  Now, we can turn them into hardened elite soldiers, less likely to panic and inspiring those around them using an Imperial Officer.  We can turn them into mobile hospital units to keep other delicate units alive and fully healed (Palp?) using a Med Droid.  We can turn them into a repair crew to make sure your AT-ST's big guns keep firing using an Astromech.  We can also turn them into a comms unit, helping to effectively order your army using the comms dude.  We can do all of this with one unit and some interesting upgrades.  FFG could have instead released a Veteran Stormtroopers unit, a Combat Medics unit, a Repair Techs unit and a Comms unit.  I think how they're handling the Corps units is really solid.  I wouldn't mind seeing more modeling options, but I don't think the basic layout is bad at all.

TLDR - To achieve greater play variety, we need more Commanders/Operatives and more Corps unit upgrades.  Commander/Operative upgrades and new Corps units will introduce variety, but less so.

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23 hours ago, Aurelus said:

With the latest article we are now up to 5 Commanders and 2 Operatives per faction.... And currently only 2 options for corps, 3 for spec forces, 2 support, 2 heavy. 

I would like to see a bit more emphasis on the rank and file units, and less special characters.  I would hate to see Legion turn into 7 activation, hero fighting hero festivals.  If I wanted to play Imperial Assault, I would play Imperial Assault.  :)

I’d like to see those Death Star troopers with the big helmets as corps troops. Hoth rebel troopers could be some corps units. 

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10 hours ago, Derrault said:

So called mudtroopers are imperial navy uniforms with a gas mask.

That’s not a distinct type, it’s an equipment upgrade. 

No, they're not.  

http://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:TX_-_Mudtrooper?fbclid=IwAR39jiYp0dwlt8s5QAKo3r0MGDUcQsmejXxqX4rdj41PXOBMjSJ1j98XkNM

Besides the fact that they are specifically identified as "Imperial Army" in the film, we see them use weapons not usually associated with the Empire, and even their lore as expendable troops would offer a different way to handle a corps unit.

And that's not even going into the range of vehicles that could be brought in for just the Empire alone as light or heavy support units.  AT-PTs, AT-DTs, AT-DPs, etc are all great for this scale, but are being ignored because every third release has to be a named character. 

Edited by Alpha17

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19 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

These named characters will be designed with a theme and if you play against that theme, they're probably not going to perform well for you. 

This is one of the things I like about Armada.  I don't have all that many ships because my concept was a light fleet with squadron support and I've stuck to a mix of 5-7 frigates and corvettes.  That said, changing the commander almost completely changes the way my fleet is used through a single universal rule.

On the other hand, I don't like the way the game pushes me toward titles and unique characters.  The abilities on some of the ships are so strong for the points that I was handicapping myself significantly when taking an all generic fleet.  A Nebulon B (my favourite ship) with a title is a lot more effective for only 5-8 points more on a 57 point ship.  

The same logic applies to the named characters compared to the generic commanders.  Points spent on upgrading to a named character are very efficient, not to mention opening up different styles of play.  Playing all generic seems like it will handicap a player, though that's not to say it makes it unwinnable.

My workaround is to use Solo with an altered model and avoid the more obvious synergies with other characters like Chewie.  He doesn't look much like Han anymore.

My army is done now- I've got an elite rebel force with air support.  I don't need to go buying anything else for a while while I learn to play well with what I have.

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4 minutes ago, Katarn said:

This is one of the things I like about Armada.  I don't have all that many ships because my concept was a light fleet with squadron support and I've stuck to a mix of 5-7 frigates and corvettes.  That said, changing the commander almost completely changes the way my fleet is used through a single universal rule.

On the other hand, I don't like the way the game pushes me toward titles and unique characters.  The abilities on some of the ships are so strong for the points that I was handicapping myself significantly when taking an all generic fleet.  A Nebulon B (my favourite ship) with a title is a lot more effective for only 5-8 points more on a 57 point ship.  

The same logic applies to the named characters compared to the generic commanders.  Points spent on upgrading to a named character are very efficient, not to mention opening up different styles of play.  Playing all generic seems like it will handicap a player, though that's not to say it makes it unwinnable.

My workaround is to use Solo with an altered model and avoid the more obvious synergies with other characters like Chewie.  He doesn't look much like Han anymore.

My army is done now- I've got an elite rebel force with air support.  I don't need to go buying anything else for a while while I learn to play well with what I have.

I don't think the generic Commanders are really that much of a detriment.  Sure, in a vaccum, Emperor Palpatine is better than the barebones 50pt Commander.  BUT...  that's not the comparison.  The comparison is Palpatine versus an Imperial Officer and two units of Stormtroopers with DLT-19s and Imperial Officer upgrades (largely immune to average levels of suppression).  In that instance, Palpatine is still more expensive (usually 230pts or so).  Taking a 50pt Commander opens up a ton of points for other upgrades. 

I do agree that Armada's Admiral choice drives a lot of the other choices you make.  Also, there are definitely certain upgrades that are almost not optional.  Vic II-class Star Destroyers without Disposable Capacitors are almost a waste of points.  Motti without big ships doesn't do a lot.  I'm not seeing that issue in Legion right now.

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1 hour ago, KrisWall said:

I don't think the generic Commanders are really that much of a detriment.  Sure, in a vaccum, Emperor Palpatine is better than the barebones 50pt Commander.  BUT...  that's not the comparison.  The comparison is Palpatine versus an Imperial Officer and two units of Stormtroopers with DLT-19s and Imperial Officer upgrades (largely immune to average levels of suppression).  In that instance, Palpatine is still more expensive (usually 230pts or so).  Taking a 50pt Commander opens up a ton of points for other upgrades.

I think @Katarn was thinking more of Veers/Krennic and Han/Leia vs. The generic commanders; Veers and Leia in particular do everything the generics do but better for a modest points increase. I'm not entirely happy with the generic commanders because of this (especially since both factions would have loved to finally have access to both spotter and take cover), but at the same time, I really did not want the generic commanders to overshadow the named ones the way they can in some other games.

As far as my thoughts on the subject; I feel Legion could do with another corps unit or two. Hoth Troopers are a popular request on these forums that would make a good Rebel Corps units, and both the Modern and Legends-era Imperial Army Troopers don't really fit anywhere else. On the other hand, the nature of Command Cards means new Operatives and Commanders add a lot of new options to the game, so I suspect we'll continue to see more of them for quite some time. However, the nature of the command card system also works against a true "herohammer" army- A lot of a commander's power is tied to their command cards, and there's a diminishing return past the second commander/operative since you can't use all the command cards from three different characters. For that matter, the addition of the new generic command cards means you don't get as much from the second commander/operative.

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Unfortunately, the generics are in a bad spot overall. The low health pool is really what kills them for me. They should've either had six hits like most commanders so they don't die so easily or been ten points cheaper as two generics for the same cost of Veers would likely make the decision much more ambiguous.

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1 hour ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Unfortunately, the generics are in a bad spot overall. The low health pool is really what kills them for me. They should've either had six hits like most commanders so they don't die so easily or been ten points cheaper as two generics for the same cost of Veers would likely make the decision much more ambiguous.

I don't really see that as an issue.  I put together an played a list that had an Imperial Officer as the Commander and then several units of Stormtroopers with Imperial Officer personnel upgrades.  If the Commander dies, I just promote one of the Stormtrooper Officers.  I don't really lose out on anything.  Because of that, players generally don't bother shooting the Imperial Officer.  There's no real benefit to killing him.  It's not like I'll lose access to his generic command cards or anything.  I'll usually include Esteemed Leader as a hedge against a bounty victory point, but I've yet to have to use it.

Veers is better, but he also means I need to prune 30 points from elsewhere in my list AND keep him alive if I want to use half my command cards.

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Am I the only one who is basically shouting, "Give me both!!".

I want Commander Hera and Operative Cassian.  I want the rest of Rogue One & Phoenix Squad as a Special Forces release that can be run as a single unit or have members added to corps units via the Heavy or Personnel slots.  I want Hoth troopers and Partisans as corps choices.  Give me Saw as a Commander.  Mud Troopers, Imperial Navy Troopers, Dewbacks, Thrawn, Tarkin, Mandilorians...

Yes, Yes, Yes!!!!

I want to be able to write my own stories with all of these things, whether it be my personal canon account of Han and Leia running into those bounty hunter on Ord Mandell or a missing chapter from Twilight Company where my rebels are slugging it out in some outer rim planet under the command of "faux-Gideon".

Also, the Operations FFG publishes are a great break from "meta 800 point play".  One can easily take a page from that book and make up their own force org build requirements but don't poo-poo the fact that what is being released "right now" doesn't fit your particular "needs" for the game.  It seems to be a fairly healthy line for FFG so eventually we'll hopefully see enough releases that everyone can choose from enough product to make the game their own.

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I totally understand the "Corps are basic, we shouldn't flood the game with them" idea, they are, after all required for play. That said, since you are required three units, I do think one more set each would be good, so you aren't forced to double up on a unit if you don't want to - it would improve thematic and tactical flexibility and let them get some more iconic sculpts out even if they want to leave more elite and complex units to Special Forces (which seems to be working out so far). 

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32 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

I don't really see that as an issue.  I put together an played a list that had an Imperial Officer as the Commander and then several units of Stormtroopers with Imperial Officer personnel upgrades.  If the Commander dies, I just promote one of the Stormtrooper Officers.  I don't really lose out on anything.  Because of that, players generally don't bother shooting the Imperial Officer.  There's no real benefit to killing him.  It's not like I'll lose access to his generic command cards or anything.  I'll usually include Esteemed Leader as a hedge against a bounty victory point, but I've yet to have to use it.

Veers is better, but he also means I need to prune 30 points from elsewhere in my list AND keep him alive if I want to use half my command cards.

You could just take Veers and use the generic command cards though. Even without his command cards he still can at least hand out more aim tokens then the generic and is better in a fight than them too.

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10 minutes ago, FSD said:

Am I the only one who is basically shouting, "Give me both!!".

I'm with you!

I'm looking forward to more corps choices AND more commander/operative choices.  There are a lot of things that naturally keep hero spam in check (the aforementioned diminishing returns on command cards, activation spam mathematics, and objectives) so I'm not worried about double commander/ double operative armies.

More corps units will also add a lot to the game.  I would expect at least 1 more choice for each faction, but maybe 2.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

You could just take Veers and use the generic command cards though. Even without his command cards he still can at least hand out more aim tokens then the generic and is better in a fight than them too.

Upgrading the Imperial Officer to Veers also means either cutting an entire extra unit or cutting a bunch of useful upgrades.  That 30 points has to come from somewhere.

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