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Alderaan Crumbs

[SotB] Any new cyberware rules?

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The unifying theme is that each piece of cybernetics your character possesses reduces your Strain threshold by 1. The benefit of each cybernetic implant is listed in its description.

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4 hours ago, Saibrock said:

The unifying theme is that each piece of cybernetics your character possesses reduces your Strain threshold by 1. The benefit of each cybernetic implant is listed in its description.

I do like how the Cyborg archetype counteracts that, by getting 1-2 initial implants that don't reduce Strain, and then with their innate ability that lets them regain strain equal to how many implants they have.

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1 hour ago, Rationalinsanity said:

I do like how the Cyborg archetype counteracts that, by getting 1-2 initial implants that don't reduce Strain, and then with their innate ability that lets them regain strain equal to how many implants they have.

I like that. Losing Strain has an odd dynamic to me. 

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On 2/7/2019 at 7:19 AM, Alderaan Crumbs said:

I like that. Losing Strain has an odd dynamic to me. 

I think the idea is that cyberware is more prone to malfunction, maybe makes you a little more vulnerable to stun damage weapons (which deal strain damage), etc. I can see it being weird when you're getting strained out via a social encounter, or through voluntary suffering of strain, but yeah. 

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54 minutes ago, KRKappel said:

I think the idea is that cyberware is more prone to malfunction, maybe makes you a little more vulnerable to stun damage weapons (which deal strain damage), etc. I can see it being weird when you're getting strained out via a social encounter, or through voluntary suffering of strain, but yeah. 

Oh, great point on the shorting out and such. I actually see the social stuff as logical as you‚Äôre less able to relate as you were and have less ‚Äúemotional reserves‚ÄĚ.¬†

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17 hours ago, Alderaan Crumbs said:

Oh, great point on the shorting out and such. I actually see the social stuff as logical as you‚Äôre less able to relate as you were and have less ‚Äúemotional reserves‚ÄĚ.¬†

This is my understanding as well. The book only mentions this in passing, but does touch on how more cybernetics lowers your "humanity."

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On 2/8/2019 at 12:45 PM, Colgrevance said:

Is cyberware as overpowered as in Star Wars, raising characteristics free of xp?

Remember normal limbs (at least in Star Wars) aren't subject to malfunction or ion weapons where cyberware is. Cyberware does have its shortcomings. Additionally, chopping off a cyberarm mid-length is less devastating (IMHO) then a crit and it bothers me less to do so to cybered characters if it is relatively easy from them to get it repaired/replaced (assuming they have the funds to begin with, even if it wipes them out financially).

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3 hours ago, lyinggod said:

RememberÔĽŅ normal limbs (at least in Star Wars) aren't subject to malfunction or ion weapons wherÔĽŅe cyberware is. Cyberware does have its shortcomings.

Are there explicit rules for malfunction or EMP in Android? I haven't got the book yet. :(

And even if there are: I still don't like using different currencies when it comes to character improvements as big as raised characteristics (xp vs. money vs. some "ingame" disadvantage that the GM has to enforce). It just runs counter to my sense of fair balancing.

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On 2/8/2019 at 1:45 PM, Colgrevance said:

Is cyberware as overpowered as in Star Wars, raising characteristics free of xp?

Maybe? And Yes.

I can't speak for a comparison between the two, being largely unfamiliar with the Star Wars version of the Narrative Dice System.

Cybernetics can raise your characteristics and statistics, and don't cost Experience. However only once each, and there is the aforementioned Strain loss, which adds up quickly.

I don't think they're overpowered by themselves, just powerful. They simply increase the ceiling for combat effectiveness somewhat. For example (IIRC), if you have a Cyberlimb (Brawn) and wear an Exosuit (also available in SotB), you can achieve up to 7 Brawn and 10+ Soak. Which is only a game balance problem if you're still regularly fighting enemies who only have ~2 Brawn and ~4 Soak, or who're using ranged weapons that only deal 3-6 Damage.

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17 hours ago, Colgrevance said:

re there explicit rules for malfunction or EMP in Android? I haven't got the book yet.

I haven't seen the book yet either.

17 hours ago, Colgrevance said:

I still don't like using different currencies when it comes to character ÔĽŅÔĽŅimprovements as big as raised characteristics¬†(xp vs. money vs. some "ingame"¬†disadvantage that the GM has to enforce). It just runs¬†counter to my sense of fair balancing.

Money and XP are different meta-currencies as are wounds and strain. You spend money to get a set of lockpicks that give you a boost or you buy the tier 1 talent that does the same; two different currencies being used. Rarity is also a form a meta-currency. This all enforces a potential amount of "unfairness" on players. Unless you're dealing with 12 year olds or people stubbornly entrenched in the WORLDS MOST BANAL RPG GAME's mindset regarding unwavering balance for every +1 then fairness means everyone is having fun. In Android, you spend permanent meta-currency (strain) on a cyber-limb. Is this worth it? That's up to the player. What if you decide that in your world that cyberware can be sundered? Is that fair or is that just the way the world works. I am working a post-apocalypse science fantasy game/setting in which magic items (or at least their magical aspect) can break relatively easily. Is that fair? It doesn't matter because it's the way the world works. Players will have to use their magic items conservatively if they want to keep them.

Edited by lyinggod
typoos

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7 hours ago, lyinggod said:

Unless you're dealing with 12 year olds or people stubbornly entrenched in the WORLDS MOST BANAL RPG GAME's mindsetÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅ regarding unwavering balance for every +1 then fairness means everyone is havÔĽŅing fÔĽŅuÔĽŅnÔĽŅ.ÔĽŅ

Thanks for explaining fairness to me. <_< I found Cyberware to be overpowered in the Star Wars games, and I will stand by my opinion. I respect your differing view and expect you to do the same.

Anyway, I'm still curious if there are EMP or other weapons that specifically affect cyberware in SotB.

Edited by Colgrevance

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10 hours ago, Cantriped said:

I don't think they're overpowered by themselves, just powerful. They simply increase the ceiling for combat effectiveness somewhat. For example (IIRC), if you have a Cyberlimb (Brawn) and wear an Exosuit (also available in SotB), you can achieve up to 7 Brawn and 10+ Soak. Which is only a game balance problem if you're still regularly fighting enemies who only have ~2 Brawn and ~4 Soak, or who're using ranged weapons that only deal 3-6 Damage.

That's not how it works. Not at all.

The maximum any characteristics can get is 5. Nothing in the cybernetic section nor the exosuit entry says otherwise. So You can use them both to get a Brawn increase only if your Brawn is 3 or lower. If it's 4 you can only increase it once to 5. Regardless of how many different +1s you stack, the hard limit if 5 (unless something comes along that specifically calls out that it can exceed said limit).

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8 minutes ago, c__beck said:

That's not how it works. Not at all.

The maximum any characteristics can get is 5. Nothing in the cybernetic section nor the exosuit entry says otherwise. So You can use them both to get a Brawn increase only if your Brawn is 3 or lower. If it's 4 you can only increase it once to 5. Regardless of how many different +1s you stack, the hard limit if 5 (unless something comes along that specifically calls out that it can exceed said limit).

Not entirely accurate,  any character may get access to equipment or special powers that temporarily raise one or more of the characteristics higher than 5, though their base characteristics still max out at 5.    Cybernetics are capped at +1 each, and you can't get additional cyberware to increase your attributes any higher beyond that +1, no matter how many different pieces of cyber you're running.   However, it doesn't prevent it from stacking with an exosuit.   As always though, run your game how you will.  I'll allow the stacking of those items.  

 

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1 minute ago, Raicheck said:

Not entirely accurate,  any character may get access to equipment or special powers that temporarily raise one or more of the characteristics higher than 5, though their base characteristics still max out at 5.    Cybernetics are capped at +1 each, and you can't get additional cyberware to increase your attributes any higher beyond that +1, no matter how many different pieces of cyber you're running.   However, it doesn't prevent it from stacking with an exosuit.   As always though, run your game how you will.  I'll allow the stacking of those items.  

 

CRB44:

"No characteristic can be increased higher than 5, either in character creation or in gameplay. However, this limit only applies to player characters (your character). Non-player characters (also referred to as adversaries) can have characteristics higher than 5. In addition, any character may get access to equipment or special powers that temporarily raise one or more of their characteristics higher than 5. However, your char- acter’s base characteristics still max out at 5."

I take that to mean that you cannot go higher than 5, even with cyberware. I consider cyberware to not fall in the category of "…equipment or special power that temporarily raise…" since it's not temporary, it's permanent. But I can see how one could interpret it the other way around. But I guess that the exosuit is temporary since you lose the benefit once you take it off. At my table that, at least, can exceed the hard cap.

I'm going to shoot FFG a question to see if we can get design intent on if cyberware can exceed the normal max of 5.

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1 minute ago, c__beck said:

CRB44:

"No characteristic can be increased higher than 5, either in character creation or in gameplay. However, this limit only applies to player characters (your character). Non-player characters (also referred to as adversaries) can have characteristics higher than 5. In addition, any character may get access to equipment or special powers that temporarily raise one or more of their characteristics higher than 5. However, your char- acter’s base characteristics still max out at 5."

I take that to mean that you cannot go higher than 5, even with cyberware. I consider cyberware to not fall in the category of "…equipment or special power that temporarily raise…" since it's not temporary, it's permanent. But I can see how one could interpret it the other way around. But I guess that the exosuit is temporary since you lose the benefit once you take it off. At my table that, at least, can exceed the hard cap.

I'm going to shoot FFG a question to see if we can get design intent on if cyberware can exceed the normal max of 5.

See, to me, cyber is basically equipment.   I realize SWRPG isn't Genesys they are very similar. In SW it is one of the few ways to exceed cap in that system.    Cyberware can also be glitched out or turned against its owner with the right talent.   So, I have no problem with a character going over cap with some of that.      

It also works thematically in my mind, as almost all of the material I have ever read, played with etc, cyber was always supposed to exceed normal human limitations, though always with a cost.  In several settings power armor was made to help norms fight against cybered up a-holes, and to carry heavier ordinance  than a normal soldier could.   

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As I am thinking about it, I do find it interesting that they didn't have some form of cyber disabler listed under equipment in the book.   It'd make sense for the authorities to have something like that for when they took perps into custody etc.   It's present in most of the other systems.   I'm gonna add something like that into cop equipment. 

 

Edited by Raicheck

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The exosuit does not say anything about being an exception to the CRB p44 rule. Therefore, it applies. Genesys is purposefully not doing the same things as SW because of problems in allowing it.

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Just now, Raicheck said:

See, to me, cyber is basically equipment.   I realize SWRPG isn't Genesys they are very similar. In SW it is one of the few ways to exceed cap in that system.    Cyberware can also be glitched out or turned against its owner with the right talent.   So, I have no problem with a character going over cap with some of that.      

It also works thematically in my mind, as almost all of the material I have ever read, played with etc, cyber was always supposed to exceed normal human limitations, though always with a cost.  In several settings power armor was made to help norms fight against cybered up a-holes, and to carry heavier ordinance  than a normal soldier could.   

In SWRPG it specifically said that cybernetics can exceed the cap. The lack of the same in Genesys is one of the things that makes me think it doesn't. Also, the lack of cyber-targeting gear like in SWRPG lends weight (in my mind) to my interpretation.

But like I said, I have sent the question to FFG. I'll be sure to post what they say (when they answer). Of course, the most important thing is that your rulings work for you and your table! I'm not here to tell you that you're¬†doing it wrong‚ÄĒif you're having fun, you're doing it right!

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3 minutes ago, Raicheck said:

As I am thinking about it, I do find it interesting that they didn't have some form of cyber disabler listed under equipment in the book.   It'd make sense for the authorities to have something like that for when they took perps into custody etc.   It's present in most of the other systems.   I'm gonna add something like that into cop equipment. 

 

There is a talent that lets a character hack them. Tier 5, I think.

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5 minutes ago, drainsmith said:

There is a talent that lets a character hack them. Tier 5, I think.

Yeah it's ghost in the machine.  I was thinking more of a piece of equipment that someone could slap on someone's arm as an example, that while it was equipped would temporarily disable the cyber. 

Edited by Raicheck

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Realistically though, anyone who stacks that many points into a single attribute, makes me chuckle with glee as a GM.   It means they have several weak points that can be exploited.   

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