Up Close & Personal...

[RedDogReb 58]

I managed to get my hands on a Chimaera recently, and now want to use it, albeit I'm very much a noob.

I've used ISDs and VSDs as long range platforms, occasionally with a GSD or two for more close in work.

I wondered if it was viable to run a list where the intention was purely to get, as it says in the title, up close and personal (ie black dice range)?

A quick go on Ryan Kingstons Armada Builder, and I drafted this list:

 ISD Kuat, Admiral Screed, Strategic Advisor, Ordnance Experts, ECM, Expanded Launchers (or are ACMs better?)

(I don't know whether Ordnance Experts or Gunnery Teams would be better given the aim of the list)

GSD1, Intel Officer, Ord Exp, Engine Techs, ACM, Demolisher

GSD1, Intel Officer, Ord Exp, Engine Techs, ACM

Gozanti, Comms Net

Gozanti, Comms Net

390 points

Objectives: Advanced Gunnery, Hyperspace Assault, not too sure about the blue one - Solar Corona?

A bit of red and blue sniping as the range closes, but once in black range, hopefully enemy ships will be in trouble.

Is this list idiotic beyond belief (ie It'll never work)?

No squadrons is an issue - My local meta (all 5 of us!) like to use squadrons, but I think the bid is good enough to go first and I have 6 activations including strategic advisor to do that last first thing.

Comments welcome.

Thanks.

 

[R4Pi3R 79]

Wouldn't go Advanced Gunnery. Any ship with a good amount of red dice will lay down fire on you 1 turn before you can. With the 2 Gozantis, Most Wanted will be preferable for you. Solar Corona seems legit.

With the Kuat, OEs are usually fine and bear better results than a GT. Expanded Launchers...well I personally dislike them for their cost/effect ratio. If you can only use them once in a game you practically paid 10 points more for ExRax.
ACMs on all 3 ships can be utterly devastating. With Screed and good flying of the Glads (especially the non-Demo) you can dish out 5 to 6 ACM hits a round.
Another possibility would be Vader as commander and going BTVenger on the Kuat. it can only echaust 2 Def tokens, but double brace won't work and with the ACMs on both glads, shields to redirect to will soon run out.

Squads might be a problem, true, but as you said, go slow and once in range, jump the carrier with the Kuat and Demo. (Preferably after it has activated to last first it and render the squads motly useless asap)

Other than that... I like it. Wanna go for a 2 Glad fleet too, but somehow they're sold out in most shops round here... 

[RedDogReb 58]

@R4Pi3R thanks for the feedback. Really helpful.

I often use Most Wanted and while I considered it, just opted for something different. Your points are well made. Back to MW it is!

The more I think about Expanded Launchers, the more I think ACM would be better. Less points, albeit rolling less dice, but more effective crits, which are all but guaranteed with Screed.

I need a lot of practice using GSDs - I just can't quite get the hang of it, but love 'em! I hope I might have the list that I can use them effectively with.

Kuat in first to soak up punishment and dish it out, then the GSDs to follow in and clean up. Sounds easy when typing it LOL.

 

[RedDogReb 58]

Slight amendment following @R4Pi3R suggestions gives me the following:

ISD Kuat, Admiral Screed, Strategic Advisor, Ordnance Experts, ECM, ACM, Leading Shots (just in case I get some blanks with the red dice)

GSD1, Intel Officer, Ord Exp, Engine Techs, ACM, Demolisher

GSD1, Intel Officer, Ord Exp, Engine Techs, ACM, Insidious

Gozanti, Comms Net

Gozanti, Comms Net

391 points

Assault - Most Wanted / Defence - Hyperspace Assault / Navigation - Solar Corona

ACM and Leading Shots in place of Expanded Launchers, and I've added the title Insidious to the other GSD - Useful if Hyperspace Assault is chosen if my oppo has a bigger bid and I'm second.

Itching to try this out now. Maybe Monday if I can get a game at my local club.

[Cleto0 41]

Use jamming barrier if you have it. Cut insidious and engine techs on both for a light fighter screen use Ree. Then you get more bid as well. This will give you enough anti squadron to help slightly protect your fleet from sure destruction. If you don’t want the interceptor, than I would go with a flechette torps glad with kallus 

[Captain Ordo N-11 63]

Kuat with OE, LS, EL, and Vader puts out a lot of damage. Since you have your initial roll and 3 rerolls keep rolling until all black dice are double hits. 

[Cleto0 41]

On 2/7/2019 at 3:49 PM, Captain Ordo N-11 said:

Kuat with OE, LS, EL, and Vader puts out a lot of damage. Since you have your initial roll and 3 rerolls keep rolling until all black dice are double hits. 

No. That is overdone. AT MOST use Vader and LS. That is enough consistency. Then put in gunnery teams or boarding teams. You also do not want expanded launchers because they are 13 points and you will only really use it once or maybe twice. External racks is way more cost effective 

Edited Monday at 03:11 PM by Cleto0

[The Jabbawookie 2,839]

2 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

No. That is overdone. AT MOST use Vader and LS. That is enough consistency. Then put in gunnery teams or boarding teams. You also do not want expanded launchers because they are 13 points and you will only really use it once or maybe twice. External racks is way more cost effective 

I think you may misunderstand.  The purpose is not consistency, but optimization.  Cheesy?  Absolutely.  Fun?  Sure is.  Throw in an Intel Officer and a high activation count and it can be pretty effective on the second shot.  (Though as you say, External Racks are usually the better way to go.)

[Cleto0 41]

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I think you may misunderstand.  The purpose is not consistency, but optimization.  Cheesy?  Absolutely.  Fun?  Sure is.  Throw in an Intel Officer and a high activation count and it can be pretty effective on the second shot.  (Though as you say, External Racks are usually the better way to go.)

That is the most optimized in my opinion. 

[The Jabbawookie 2,839]

9 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

That is the most optimized in my opinion. 

Optimization of dice faces, not necessarily upgrade spending.  You objectively deal more average damage the more rerolls you have at your disposal.  Each black die has a 68% chance of being a crit, and each red die has a 33% chance of being a double.

Edit:  And I'm not calling it the ideal playstyle.  But it is a specific, legitimate way of increasing damage.

Edited Monday at 07:11 PM by The Jabbawookie

[Cleto0 41]

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The purpose is not consistency, but optimization

This isn’t optimization. It is taking a 40% chance on dice multiple times. Now I am not saying it’s bad, it’s just not the optimized option. Anyway this is a thrawn list, so you might be able to get away with oe and ls and comfire tokens and dial

[The Jabbawookie 2,839]

28 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

This isn’t optimization. It is taking a 40% chance on dice multiple times. Now I am not saying it’s bad, it’s just not the optimized option. Anyway this is a thrawn list, so you might be able to get away with oe and ls and comfire tokens and dial

Optimization: an act, process, or methodology of making something (such as a design, system, or decision) as fully perfect, functional, or effective as possible

 

specifically : the mathematical procedures (such as finding the maximum of a function) involved in this

 

So you find your criterion.  It could be defense token screwage (BTA/IO.)  It could be attacking as many targets as possible (Gunnery Team.)  If you set your goal to "getting the best possible results with this large attack pool," then this build is optimized (assuming a CF token, and Targeting Beacons, and soon Krennic, and now we're getting ridiculous.)  You can't employ optimization without having a specific objective.  I don't claim this is the best objective to have (we're on the same page there, it looks like) but it is optimization.

Edited Monday at 07:57 PM by The Jabbawookie

[Cleto0 41]

3 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Optimization: an act, process, or methodology of making something (such as a design, system, or decision) as fully perfect, functional, or effective as possible

 

specifically : the mathematical procedures (such as finding the maximum of a function) involved in this

 

So you find your criterion.  It could be defense token screwage (BTA/IO.)  It could be attacking as many targets as possible (Gunnery Team.)  If you set your goal to "getting the best possible results with this large attack pool," then this build is optimized (assuming a CF token, and Targeting Beacons, and soon Krennic, and now we're getting ridiculous.)  You can't employ optimization without having a specific objective.  I don't claim this is the best objective to have (we're on the same page there, it looks like) but it is optimization.

lol thanks for the definition. I was hoping for most overall damage because the goal is to destroy the ships... idk but it seems like your crazy dice rolling won’t translate into as much damage.

[The Jabbawookie 2,839]

1 minute ago, Cleto0 said:

lol thanks for the definition. I was hoping for most overall damage because the goal is to destroy the ships... idk but it seems like your crazy dice rolling won’t translate into as much damage.

Oh no, my name's not going on that build 😉  But you've got me curious now.  Does this look right?  It's assumed all rerolls are used and no CF token, so imperfect in that regard...

Black dice:  (2)(1-0.75^4) + (0.75^4)(0.666667) = ~1.578 avg damage

Blue dice:   (1-0.25^3) = ~0.984 avg damage

Red dice:   (2)(1-0.875^3) + (0.875^3)(0.571) = `1.043 avg damage

 

As you would expect, for blues in particular it's a really minimal improvement (+0.047.)  Red and Black dice get a better deal with +0.139 and + 0.140 respectively, making the total increase about +1.16 damage without a concentrate fire command.  Worth it?  Good question.  People pay more than four points for QBTs or Spinal Armament, but Boarding Teams are likely better in a non-casual game.  For a casual game this with IO, 2 Comms Net Gozantis and 3 Arqs comes to 385, which sounds fun.

[RedDogReb 58]

Well I played the game tonight, using my amended list above (no fighters/jamming!) against the following squadron heavy list:
Rebels

Commander: General Dodonna

Objectives: Precision Strike, Salvage Run, Capture the VIP

[flagship] CR90 Corvette A (44)
 - General Dodonna (20)
 - Jaina's Light (2)
 - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
= 73 total points

Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60)
 - Phoenix Home (3)
 - All Fighters, Follow Me! (5)
 - Boosted Comms (4)
 - Ray Antilles (7)
 - Veteran Captain (3)
 - Fighter Coordination Team (3)
= 85 total points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
 - Bomber Command Center (8)
 - Boosted Comms (4)
 - Ahsoka Tano (2)
= 32 total points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
 - Bomber Command Center (8)
 - Boosted Comms (4)
 - Hondo Ohnaka (2)
= 32 total points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
 - Garel's Honor (4)
 - Lando Calrissian (4)
 - External Racks (3)
 - Ordnance Experts (4)
= 51 total points

Squadrons (127/134):
1x Biggs Darklighter X-Wing Squadron (19)
1x Rogue Squadron X-wing Squadron (14)
2x X-Wing Squadron (26)
1x Norra Wexley Y-wing Squadron (17)
2x Y-Wing Squadron (20)
1x Gold Squadron Y-wing Squadron (12)
1x Moldy Crow - Jan Ors (19)

I had the choice and went first, selecting the VIP objective.

It started well, I got the Hondo GR 75, via a ram from Demolisher in Turn 2.

Turn 3 I was able to destroy the CR90 with one close range volley from the ISD. No Dodonna shenanigans!

Turn four Demolisher then got the Hammerhead

However by the end of the game I had lost both the GSDs but had picked up and made off with the VIP. Insidious was lost on turn 5, and only due to a bomber crit, which turned out to be Structural damage! Almost any other crit and it would have survived and been able to destroy the Pelta as it had a double arc. So near but yet so far to tabling my oppo.

I did what I knew I had to do and get close, and once in the face of the rebels those black dice really hurt.

Ended up with me getting a very narrow win 206 - 177.

Will try this again. Decent bid to go first, multiple threats and a relatively simple plan (which is great for someone like me!)

 

[Cleto0 41]

3 hours ago, RedDogReb said:

only due to a bomber crit, which turned out to be Structural damage!

... that is why you bring dodonna 

he literally is there for one purpose...

[RedDogReb 58]

6 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

... that is why you bring dodonna 

he literally is there for one purpose..

Dodonna was already dead by this time, as he was in the CR90, destroyed by the ISD on turn 3. 

Despite taking internals on the ISD whilst he was still on the board, none of them were  crits. I’d been lucky with that and didn’t want to chance it any longer.

Unfortunately it was the next card up! Just the luck of the draw!

[Cleto0 41]

8 hours ago, RedDogReb said:

Dodonna was already dead by this time, as he was in the CR90, destroyed by the ISD on turn 3. 

Despite taking internals on the ISD whilst he was still on the board, none of them were  crits. I’d been lucky with that and didn’t want to chance it any longer.

Unfortunately it was the next card up! Just the luck of the draw!

Now THAT is unfortunate!

 

[RedDogReb 58]

@Cleto0 yes VERY!

On the basis all he had after the Pelta was one flotilla of GR 75s and squadrons, I think that would have been a tabling!

From a potential 400 - 177 win to a 206 - 177 win due to one card....

Main thing was, it was a good game, played in the right spirit.

Bizarrely we were both worried by each others fleets. For him, my ISD, for me, his fighters.

[Cleto0 41]

1 hour ago, RedDogReb said:

or me, his fighters

For good reason!