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TalosX

Juyo in the Old Republic

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On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 4:35 AM, TalosX said:

It's a rough but accurate description of the styles overall.  I've practiced kenjutsu for the last 16 years, so I always enjoy discussing sword techniques.  As you say, most Jedi had at least some skill in multiple forms.  An example being; all younglings received basic Shii-Cho training.  It provided basic attack and defense techniques that could be improved upon, or augmented by other forms after they became padawans.

I'm curious if you've ever read the novelizations of the 2nd and 3rd movies?  They provide some interesting perspectives that don't come across in the movies very well.  In Attack of the Clones, Dooku actually thought he could defeat Yoda in their lightsaber duel.  However, once the duel started, he quickly realized he was far outclassed by Yoda.  The novel highlights that he was forced completely on the defensive and fighting for his life.  In the Revenge of the Sith novel, Dooku is described as nearly in awe of Obi-Won's mastery of Form III.  Obi-Won's defenses were so perfect, Dooku realized the only way to beat him was to use his greater command of the Force to remove him from the fight.

 

Windu is noted for being critical of many people, himself most of all.  He developed Vaapad, in his words "as an answer for his own weakness".  Vaapad was less about technique, and more about a state of mind.  It allowed the user to channel their darker emotions, love of battle and conflict in Windu's case, into their swordplay.  Needless to say, channeling such emotions is dangerous.  Two of the three Vaapad practitioners fell to the dark-side.

You know, I've looked at several talents to possibly sub in, but for some reason I completely overlooked Improved Parry!  Also, you're the first person to actually help with what I asked, so thank you for that.

 

Juyo's always had negative connotations attributed to it.  It is a highly aggressive form, that has also been noted as having more of it's practitioners fall to the Dark-side then any other form.  That's probably why Cin Drallig limited it's practice to individuals of a specific temperament.  Juyo needs that passionate aggression to truly shine, but the Jedi needs to have very fine control of that aggression to keep himself on the Light-side.

An interesting note since you brought up KOTOR.  It was mentioned in KOTOR 2 that Juyo was very strong against a single opponent, allowing you to eviscerate your opponent in a duel.  Yet the FFG specialization has a Multiple Opponents talent that provides a bonus die when engaged by two or more opponents.  Just one of those things that makes you think a bit.

I haven't got any personal experience with swords aside from a Viking sword I keep at home as an important bit of British ancestry, since for better or worse their descendants shaped us. I've casually read up and listened to talks on it over the years, so I don't have the intimate familiarity to make any serious claims in real swordsmanship. My extent is reading up on historical techiques, which involved sometimes gripping the weapon by the blade and using the crossguard as a bludgeoning hammer, still tickles me and intrigues me. I also mainly read so that I had plenty of ammunition so that when Tobin (my character) talked about training at length with lightsabers, his advice would make some grain of sense despite not being personally experienced with a weightless blade. XD Which I guess is the interesting thing about Lightsaber Saber; you don't have to give any concern toward edge alignment within one's strikes, thus in many senses a lightsaber is much more forgiving then an ordinary sword when delivering serious injury given you can strike out at any direction, any time.

Haven't read the novelisations, though I heard pretty good things about it. Like the scene with confronting Palp was so much more interesting because it didn't start out as a brawl; he actually invited one to read his mind; and used that opportunity to take control and dispatch a Knight out of the blue before the first blow was dealt. I will have to see if I can pick it up.

Aye, I guess Windu also existed as a plot device to feed Anakin's paranoia; having a master like Windu nearby when he's breaking one of the core tenants of the Jedi order in regards to marrying and sleeping with a diplomat must be nerve-wracking, even if he isn't actually being investigated. Add in Yodas aloft crypticness who seemed to indirectly discourage him despite again, Yoda's only real concern was upholding the order. It made for what I felt was compelling tension and helped justify the fall; Anakin felt he couldn't trust anyone. Especially when Windu was lost in the moment against a dangerous Sith lord and decided to forgo the Jedi way to execute him now and then (which was reasonable.)

One thing I would possibly include is perhaps a method of channelling the aggression into something that affects the battlefield; perhaps a technique that adds force pips to the check that can be spend to physically hurl a combatant within engaged a certain distance, describing the savage blows granting an opportunity to propel a combatant a certain length; I imagine this would be pretty useful for a style that is used only for offense as a way of environmental control; e.g. Maul hurling Obi-Wan to a separate area to give himself time to duel with Qui-Gon, so it might give an offensive combatant opportunity to simply swat away characters they simply can't deal with immediately, though I would probably specify that it can't be used to trigger fall damage effects given how overpowered just chuckling adversary's off cliffs or up to medium range in the air would be. Basically an inverse draw closer.

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On 2/6/2019 at 5:41 PM, TalosX said:

I mean, we have multiple out of character statements saying Windu created Vaapad.  Not rediscovered or "uncovered"as you put it, but that he created it.  Now if you want to discount that at your table, that's perfectly fine.

I don't have any issues with Balance, and I still go back and forth on Inner Peace.  After all, Juyo practitioners are said to have a really calm outward appearance to balance their inner emotions.  At the moment, I'm leaning toward replacing Vaapad Control with Improved Parry.

Many others have echoed similar statements.  However, I asked what changes other people might make, not if I should make any changes.  My minds already made up that at least Vaapad Control has to go, and potentially the Inner Peace talents as well.

It sounds like you want a form that fuels or feeds off of the Dark Side at the table and have no element of "Light Side balance" in it. The game is designed in important ways to work against that  - like PCs spending light side Destiny Points, GMs dark side - so you may need to be flexible in how you narratively interpret things.

I guess it's not entirely clear to me why Vaapad Control "must go" - it's essentially spend Strain to reduce difficulty based on your (the PCs) Force resource.  It's just that this game is built around that resource being "Light Side".  But that's entirely (and intentionally) interpretive - it's just a PC resource and a GM resource.  You don't need to interpret that as something inherently "Light Side" (even though that's encouraged in the system) so it's something a Sith or non-Jedi could/would use.   But if Vaapad Control has to go as is you could rename and flip Vaapad Control to key off of Dark Side points in the pool instead.

Similar for Inner Peace - it’s giving the PCs more of their Force resource but insisting to view it as it being a light side technique (which is what you seem to be avoiding) makes it seem unpalatable. So maybe compromise the Talent and let it still flip over Dark Side Destiny Points (so the PC is still generating their usable resource) but causes equal Conflict instead of reducing it if you want a dark side feel.

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Also, if the "history" and place of Juyo and Vaapad are a big concern for you I'd check out the Juyo section in Knights of Fate which discusses each lightsaber form.  It certainly describes Juyo as a Jedi form - albeit a controversial one that's often been banned or restricted and used by the Sith as well but it pretty clearly describes it as a Jedi technique going way back in history. 

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On 2/7/2019 at 9:39 PM, Jedi Ronin said:

It sounds like you want a form that fuels or feeds off of the Dark Side at the table and have no element of "Light Side balance" in it. The game is designed in important ways to work against that  - like PCs spending light side Destiny Points, GMs dark side - so you may need to be flexible in how you narratively interpret things.

I guess it's not entirely clear to me why Vaapad Control "must go" - it's essentially spend Strain to reduce difficulty based on your (the PCs) Force resource.  It's just that this game is built around that resource being "Light Side".  But that's entirely (and intentionally) interpretive - it's just a PC resource and a GM resource.  You don't need to interpret that as something inherently "Light Side" (even though that's encouraged in the system) so it's something a Sith or non-Jedi could/would use.   But if Vaapad Control has to go as is you could rename and flip Vaapad Control to key off of Dark Side points in the pool instead.

Similar for Inner Peace - it’s giving the PCs more of their Force resource but insisting to view it as it being a light side technique (which is what you seem to be avoiding) makes it seem unpalatable. So maybe compromise the Talent and let it still flip over Dark Side Destiny Points (so the PC is still generating their usable resource) but causes equal Conflict instead of reducing it if you want a dark side feel.

As I said, I have gone back and forth on the Inner Peace talent.  For the moment, I've decided it's needed to offset the at least some of the Conflict generated by Embrace Your Hate.  However, the Vaapad Control talent makes no sense for multiple reasons.  First, Vaapad didn't exist in the Old Republic era.  Second, Vaapad itself has more dark-side influences then standard Juyo (and should therefore be a conflict talent/talents).  Third, relying on Destiny Point "flavor" for it's effects really messes with the Juyo Beserker's power.  A light-side character can't effectively use Embrace Your Hate often without gaining a ton of Conflict, so they have to rely on Vaapad Control.  However, that technique can be neutered by your party using Destiny Points, or the GM hording them.  No other specialization has it's key talents tied to a resource the player has so little control over, and can really make the specialization not fun to play.  Removing Vaapad Control and replacing it with a non-Conflict talent that doesn't rely on DPs is the easiest change to make.

Also, you can't really say dark-side DPs are "just a GM resource" when Embrace Your Hate generates significant Conflict for using that resource.  The devs clearly intend for dark-side DPs to be seen as the dark-side influencing the typical game.

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