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TalosX

Juyo in the Old Republic

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So I'm preparing to start a new game in the Old Republic era, around the start of the re-emergence of the Sith.  I've had a player ask an interesting question, how would Juyo differ in this time.  Personally, I'd remove Vaapad Control and replace it with a third Embrace Your Hatred talent.  Then I started to wonder if the Inner Peace talents might change as well?  While they do help manage Conflict, they are also very beneficial to Vaapad Control!  So I'm still considering what does need to change.  I thought it'd make an interesting topic for the community to discuss.  How would you all change Juyo for an Old Republic game?

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Don't overthink the lore's application to the mechanics. It's just a game mechanic, a Joyu Berserker is no more using Joyu than someone with no Saber tree at all and maxed out Brawn and Skill Ranks is using Poodleplap style.

Don't change anything and just let the player take credit for pioneering the style, if not the actual refining and publication of it. Plenty of people out there do amazing new things but fail to document of publish it.

Heck you can even just say that Jedi back then were a bit more snobby and instead of recognizing it as a valid lightsaber form they blew it off as the player just making up something that didn't need to be added to al already "perfect" set of lightsaber forms.

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26 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

Why removing Vapaad control ?

I'm betting because of some lore related "Vapaad didn't exist back then because Mace Windu made it" reason. Which is garbage. If it bothers you that much change it from "Vapaad Control" to "Midichlorian Control" and get on wit hit. Don't rejigger the entire mechanic over a name.

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54 minutes ago, TalosX said:

So I'm preparing to start a new game in the Old Republic era, around the start of the re-emergence of the Sith.  I've had a player ask an interesting question, how would Juyo differ in this time.  Personally, I'd remove Vaapad Control and replace it with a third Embrace Your Hatred talent.  Then I started to wonder if the Inner Peace talents might change as well?  While they do help manage Conflict, they are also very beneficial to Vaapad Control!  So I'm still considering what does need to change.  I thought it'd make an interesting topic for the community to discuss.  How would you all change Juyo for an Old Republic game?

In all fairness, we are assuming that knowledge changes throughout the times. Maybe Mace Windu wasn't the only guy to invent Vapaad, maybe there was someone before him who had made significant advancements toward developing a more formal technique toward developing a form suited for Jedi. After all, this is a long succession of monks who basically study an abstract concept for all their lives, people will have tried. And in true human fashion, people will denounce the results, regardless of the validity as at the end of the day the results of a single teacher is worth relatively little if all their peers denounce it.

The other thing is it is a restricted technique that isn't safe for many people to use, I imagine most people would be expressively banned from it's use as a precaution, only allowing select practioners to experiment with the style to identify ways to deal with it, or identify any qualities that could be implemented. Juyo isn't for everyone as it is a technique that expressively defies the Jedi's sense of neutrality and requires one to actively draw onto their own anger and sense of enjoyment.

NPC's, especially the sith won't touch the Lightside variations of the technique anyway so you don't need to worry about that; NPC's don't have to buy trees like the PC's have to thus they can have what skills would be appropriate for their character set.

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4 hours ago, WolfRider said:

Why removing Vapaad control ?

That's a fair question.  The mechanics for Vaapad Control and Inner Peace don't make sense in the Old Republic era.  Juyo has a troubled history because many of the Jedi who studied it fell to the dark side.  The specialization has multiple Conflict causing talents to signify this problem.  However, the "Vaapad" talent branch can completely negate those Conflict talents if used appropriately (which is very easy to do).  For my Old Republic game, I want to return Juyo to it's roots.  Meaning a strong offensive style that causes dangerous levels of Conflict!

Despite what @Ghostofman thinks, my desire to change it has nothing to do with the name "Vaapad".  If that was the issue, I'd just change it to "Juyo Control" or something similar.  Much as I plan to change the names of the "Jedi Padawan" and "Jedi Knight" specializations in Rise of the Separatists.  Because I didn't need questions like: "do I have to take Jedi Padawan before I take Jedi Knight?"

EDIT:  Lets hope the yet unnamed Jedi specialization isn't something like "Jedi Master".  That'll just add to the confusion!

Edited by TalosX

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1 hour ago, TalosX said:

That's a fair question.  The mechanics for Vaapad Control and Inner Peace don't make sense in the Old Republic era.  Juyo has a troubled history because many of the Jedi who studied it fell to the dark side.  The specialization has multiple Conflict causing talents to signify this problem.  However, the "Vaapad" talent branch can completely negate those Conflict talents if used appropriately (which is very easy to do).  For my Old Republic game, I want to return Juyo to it's roots.  Meaning a strong offensive style that causes dangerous levels of Conflict!

Despite what @Ghostofman thinks, my desire to change it has nothing to do with the name "Vaapad".  If that was the issue, I'd just change it to "Juyo Control" or something similar.  Much as I plan to change the names of the "Jedi Padawan" and "Jedi Knight" specializations in Rise of the Separatists.  Because I didn't need questions like: "do I have to take Jedi Padawan before I take Jedi Knight?"

EDIT:  Lets hope the yet unnamed Jedi specialization isn't something like "Jedi Master".  That'll just add to the confusion!

It's not like everyone that takes the talent tree buys every talent in it. Some might just take the right column & bottom row and then work on a signature ability (or another spec, Force power, whatever).

Edited by HappyDaze

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

There’s a reason why many Jedi who studied the technique turned to the Dark Side. Juyo is a Sith style.

I suppose that could be true from a certain point of view.  You'd have to discount the facts that the form was developed by Jedi, and existed before the creation of the Sith.

 

12 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

It's not like everyone that takes the talent tree buys every talent in it. Some might just take the right column & bottom row and then work on a signature ability (or another spec, Force power, whatever).

While I agree with you that not everyone will purchase every talent in the specialization, that doesn't fix my issue at all.  Every specialization has 20 talents, and I'm not going to remove 3 without adding 3 back in!

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12 minutes ago, TalosX said:

I suppose that could be true from a certain point of view.  You'd have to discount the facts that the form was developed by Jedi, and existed before the creation of the Sith.

 

While I agree with you that not everyone will purchase every talent in the specialization, that doesn't fix my issue at all.  Every specialization has 20 talents, and I'm not going to remove 3 without adding 3 back in!

The Sith have existed pretty much as long as the Jedi, in one form or another. What makes Juyo a Sith style, and ultimately why it’s study by Jedi is restricted, is its reliance on passion, and aggression. In order to use the form to its fullest, a practitioner must tap into, if not fully embrace his or her passion, anger, and aggression. It’s inherently a Dark Side style. 

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51 minutes ago, TalosX said:

While I agree with you that not everyone will purchase every talent in the specialization, that doesn't fix my issue at all.  Every specialization has 20 talents, and I'm not going to remove 3 without adding 3 back in!

You don't need to remove them; if the PC really wants to take them, then let him/her even if none of the known NPC practitioners of Juyo have it. This can be something that truly makes the PC special without actually bending/breaking rules to do it in any way. If the PC doesn't want to take that angle, then they aren't losing anything by not selecting those talents since they have plenty of other places to put the XP (nobody ever has enough XP for everything they might want).

Edited by HappyDaze
punctuation matters

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On 2/1/2019 at 8:41 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

The Sith have existed pretty much as long as the Jedi, in one form or another. What makes Juyo a Sith style, and ultimately why it’s study by Jedi is restricted, is its reliance on passion, and aggression. In order to use the form to its fullest, a practitioner must tap into, if not fully embrace his or her passion, anger, and aggression. It’s inherently a Dark Side style. 

There is no canon or legends material anywhere that denotes it as a "Sith style".  Darth Sidious called it that, but that was his opinion, nothing more.  Both Yoda and Cin Drallig were the only masters of all seven forms during that time period.  Neither considered Form VII a Sith style.  Cin Drallig, the Jedi Battlemaster at the time, stated the style required a "certain temperament" because the key to Juyo was acknowledging you enjoyed battle.  Cin Drallig was noted for only allowing hand-picked candidates to study Form VII, and usually after they had mastered several other forms.  Another interesting fact was that Yoda once stated that throughout the millennia Form VII had several practitioners, but that Mace Windu was the first true master of the style.  Considering Yoda's age and knowledge, such a statement carries a pretty heavy weight.

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Personally, I tend to treat the form styles like "animal styles" in traditional Kung Fu movies, it's largely window dressing and amusing nonsense that is designed to entertain audiences. I find that the more you try and talk about the forms seriously; the more it falls apart. Or Jackie Chan's style of entertaining boxing; it isn't a style we would see in the MMA ring or even in a setting that involves guns but as a movie spectacle and as a credit to his scene setting genius it just works as art.

What the forms do work in is an expression of self; a person who favours 1 is a traditional warrior, 2 is the noble duelist who use poise and reach to gently nibble at the opponent; 3 is the conservative one who takes the barrage with tight posture and minimal movements, Ataru are for the highly mobile combatants that use momentum and acrobatics into their form, 5 is for the cunning who actively grapple with the opponent to create the openings, focusing on controlling the weapon and projecting it right back at them. Form 6 is for diplomats and students, those who aren't really a specialist saber combatant but can serve as an effective foundation for other techniques to sprout from. Then 7 is the absolute strength and unpredictable blows, frequently described as an erratic style that is designed to break apart defences with short, intense exchanges. Of these there are countless variations, double bladed, two saber, single saber, short saber, saber gun, saber chuks, saber helecopters and so fourth.

Key thing is the form is just a suggestion of the wielders heart and preference and nothing more. In practice most duellists of the historical times often have several stances that they would practice that each have their own strengths and relative weaknesses. Thus the entire concept that someone would adopt form 3, the turtle hermit style as an absolute constant is fundamentally untrue; there are times where one might flip between variations of other stances to preform particular cuts, or to gain an advantage in reach, position or leverage that would offer an advantage. Obi-Wan for example didn't just turtle up, but his mindset influenced his general strategy, while Anaikin actively attempted to best duelists in a direct exchange of blows, a factor that was easily exploited with the reach granted by the thrusting style of Dooku, who allowed his saber to project a general threat range that he used to control and corc his adversary with deliberate light licks that punished the slightest lapse in attention. It's a very broad simplification of a person's life style.

So in regards to Vapaad? Just ask your player who's taking it on who he would want to be. Does he want to be a man who struggles with his own demons in the way that he must actively tame it? To me Vapaad is like finally accepting that weakness in themselves as part of their being and taking it in, forever being mindful to never let the intoxication of their own passions rule them. To me Windu seems a particular intense character who is always actively judging Anakin like an inquisitor who can smell heresy, it is in his nature to be confrontational and authoritative, which are both traits shared by the sith he faces. The primary difference between he and them is presumably his desire for justice; he is proud of his organisation and is only that figure because Windu believes in being that gold, unrelenting standard. If your character is one who has immense inner strength they have to tame, Juyo may be for you.

Potentially using improved parry to replace one of the lost talents would be interesting if the tree doesn't already have it, the chance to smack someone back after turning aside a blow is right up the aggressors tree.

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But that was Cin Dralling's way. Nothing tells us that was the way Juyo was viewed as the time of the Old Republic. Most of my knowledge about this time period comes from KotOR and SWTOR. In the last one Juyo is a Jedi Sentinel / SIth Marauder style, along with Ataru and Shii-Sho. There is nothing in it indicating it's a Sith Style.

Imo you need a true warrior spirit to practice Juyo with success. You need to able to accept your anger and fear to control them and use them to fight better without falling to the Darkside. It isn't the Sith way  but for a Jedi non-Juyo practitioner it seems close enough. And it's not exactly what the Jedi code says but it doesn't matter since the Jedi is impossible to follow when you fight for life. Wich is exactly why Juyo was made : a style you use in the heart of a battle when it's killing or be killed.

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1 hour ago, LordBritish said:

What the forms do work in is an expression of self; a person who favours 1 is a traditional warrior, 2 is the noble duelist who use poise and reach to gently nibble at the opponent; 3 is the conservative one who takes the barrage with tight posture and minimal movements, Ataru are for the highly mobile combatants that use momentum and acrobatics into their form, 5 is for the cunning who actively grapple with the opponent to create the openings, focusing on controlling the weapon and projecting it right back at them. Form 6 is for diplomats and students, those who aren't really a specialist saber combatant but can serve as an effective foundation for other techniques to sprout from. Then 7 is the absolute strength and unpredictable blows, frequently described as an erratic style that is designed to break apart defences with short, intense exchanges. Of these there are countless variations, double bladed, two saber, single saber, short saber, saber gun, saber chuks, saber helecopters and so fourth.

Key thing is the form is just a suggestion of the wielders heart and preference and nothing more. In practice most duellists of the historical times often have several stances that they would practice that each have their own strengths and relative weaknesses. Thus the entire concept that someone would adopt form 3, the turtle hermit style as an absolute constant is fundamentally untrue; there are times where one might flip between variations of other stances to preform particular cuts, or to gain an advantage in reach, position or leverage that would offer an advantage. Obi-Wan for example didn't just turtle up, but his mindset influenced his general strategy, while Anaikin actively attempted to best duelists in a direct exchange of blows, a factor that was easily exploited with the reach granted by the thrusting style of Dooku, who allowed his saber to project a general threat range that he used to control and corc his adversary with deliberate light licks that punished the slightest lapse in attention. It's a very broad simplification of a person's life style.

It's a rough but accurate description of the styles overall.  I've practiced kenjutsu for the last 16 years, so I always enjoy discussing sword techniques.  As you say, most Jedi had at least some skill in multiple forms.  An example being; all younglings received basic Shii-Cho training.  It provided basic attack and defense techniques that could be improved upon, or augmented by other forms after they became padawans.

I'm curious if you've ever read the novelizations of the 2nd and 3rd movies?  They provide some interesting perspectives that don't come across in the movies very well.  In Attack of the Clones, Dooku actually thought he could defeat Yoda in their lightsaber duel.  However, once the duel started, he quickly realized he was far outclassed by Yoda.  The novel highlights that he was forced completely on the defensive and fighting for his life.  In the Revenge of the Sith novel, Dooku is described as nearly in awe of Obi-Won's mastery of Form III.  Obi-Won's defenses were so perfect, Dooku realized the only way to beat him was to use his greater command of the Force to remove him from the fight.

 

1 hour ago, LordBritish said:

So in regards to Vapaad? Just ask your player who's taking it on who he would want to be. Does he want to be a man who struggles with his own demons in the way that he must actively tame it? To me Vapaad is like finally accepting that weakness in themselves as part of their being and taking it in, forever being mindful to never let the intoxication of their own passions rule them. To me Windu seems a particular intense character who is always actively judging Anakin like an inquisitor who can smell heresy, it is in his nature to be confrontational and authoritative, which are both traits shared by the sith he faces. The primary difference between he and them is presumably his desire for justice; he is proud of his organisation and is only that figure because Windu believes in being that gold, unrelenting standard. If your character is one who has immense inner strength they have to tame, Juyo may be for you.


Potentially using improved parry to replace one of the lost talents would be interesting if the tree doesn't already have it, the chance to smack someone back after turning aside a blow is right up the aggressors tree.

Windu is noted for being critical of many people, himself most of all.  He developed Vaapad, in his words "as an answer for his own weakness".  Vaapad was less about technique, and more about a state of mind.  It allowed the user to channel their darker emotions, love of battle and conflict in Windu's case, into their swordplay.  Needless to say, channeling such emotions is dangerous.  Two of the three Vaapad practitioners fell to the dark-side.

You know, I've looked at several talents to possibly sub in, but for some reason I completely overlooked Improved Parry!  Also, you're the first person to actually help with what I asked, so thank you for that.

 

1 hour ago, WolfRider said:

But that was Cin Dralling's way. Nothing tells us that was the way Juyo was viewed as the time of the Old Republic. Most of my knowledge about this time period comes from KotOR and SWTOR. In the last one Juyo is a Jedi Sentinel / SIth Marauder style, along with Ataru and Shii-Sho. There is nothing in it indicating it's a Sith Style.

Imo you need a true warrior spirit to practice Juyo with success. You need to able to accept your anger and fear to control them and use them to fight better without falling to the Darkside. It isn't the Sith way  but for a Jedi non-Juyo practitioner it seems close enough. And it's not exactly what the Jedi code says but it doesn't matter since the Jedi is impossible to follow when you fight for life. Wich is exactly why Juyo was made : a style you use in the heart of a battle when it's killing or be killed.

Juyo's always had negative connotations attributed to it.  It is a highly aggressive form, that has also been noted as having more of it's practitioners fall to the Dark-side then any other form.  That's probably why Cin Drallig limited it's practice to individuals of a specific temperament.  Juyo needs that passionate aggression to truly shine, but the Jedi needs to have very fine control of that aggression to keep himself on the Light-side.

An interesting note since you brought up KOTOR.  It was mentioned in KOTOR 2 that Juyo was very strong against a single opponent, allowing you to eviscerate your opponent in a duel.  Yet the FFG specialization has a Multiple Opponents talent that provides a bonus die when engaged by two or more opponents.  Just one of those things that makes you think a bit.

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8 hours ago, LordBritish said:

Key thing is the form is just a suggestion of the wielders heart and preference and nothing more. In practice most duellists of the historical times often have several stances that they would practice that each have their own strengths and relative weaknesses. Thus the entire concept that someone would adopt form 3, the turtle hermit style as an absolute constant is fundamentally untrue; there are times where one might flip between variations of other stances to preform particular cuts, or to gain an advantage in reach, position or leverage that would offer an advantage. Obi-Wan for example didn't just turtle up, but his mindset influenced his general strategy, while Anaikin actively attempted to best duelists in a direct exchange of blows, a factor that was easily exploited with the reach granted by the thrusting style of Dooku, who allowed his saber to project a general threat range that he used to control and corc his adversary with deliberate light licks that punished the slightest lapse in attention. It's a very broad simplification of a person's life style.

I couldn't read this without just thinking "watch The Princess Bride".

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Well based on what is said in the description of the fluff and that Vaapad is available for players to learn in the default time period suggests that the Developers, and by extension Lucasfilm, feel any PC practitioner can develop and master the Vaapad technique with enough dedication and practice. The reasons I say this are, one by your account there were only 3 practitioners who could teach it. Two of which died roughly 20 years ago and the third is hiding out on dagobah presumed dead, and highly unlikely to be mentoring a PC. So the default is that there is no one to teach it to a PC already. Second in the specialization description it says it is a form likely to be practiced by those lacking in formal lightsaber training. So it seems that the developers assumed you are probably going to be learning and mastering Juyo and Vapaad on your own. Which is probably why it is such a long winding path to those talents. 

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20 hours ago, TalosX said:

There is no canon or legends material anywhere that denotes it as a "Sith style".  Darth Sidious called it that, but that was his opinion, nothing more.  Both Yoda and Cin Drallig were the only masters of all seven forms during that time period.  Neither considered Form VII a Sith style.  Cin Drallig, the Jedi Battlemaster at the time, stated the style required a "certain temperament" because the key to Juyo was acknowledging you enjoyed battle.  Cin Drallig was noted for only allowing hand-picked candidates to study Form VII, and usually after they had mastered several other forms.  Another interesting fact was that Yoda once stated that throughout the millennia Form VII had several practitioners, but that Mace Windu was the first true master of the style.  Considering Yoda's age and knowledge, such a statement carries a pretty heavy weight.

Actually, if you read his quote from Path if the Jedi, he's not stating it as an opinion. He's stating it as a matter of fact. As the information within the main text says, how it requires embracing strong passions and emotions to make proper use of the style, making it very dangerous for a Jedi to use, Palpatine annotates it, basically saying, "No S#!7. That's because it's a Sith style. Of course it requires strong emotions." This isn't opinion. Opinions can be neither correct nor incorrect. This is a matter of fact. It is either a Sith Style or it is not one. Given the fact that not only do we have a high level Sith Lord claiming that the style is a Sith style, but the majority of practitioners were Sith, and it is inherently Dark Side in nature, drawing on strong, negative emotions and passions. That is what makes it a Sith style. Does that mean a Jedi can't learn it? No. But it does make it very dangerous for one to do so, which is why it is restricted

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9 hours ago, Nihil84 said:

Well based on what is said in the description of the fluff and that Vaapad is available for players to learn in the default time period suggests that the Developers, and by extension Lucasfilm, feel any PC practitioner can develop and master the Vaapad technique with enough dedication and practice. The reasons I say this are, one by your account there were only 3 practitioners who could teach it. Two of which died roughly 20 years ago and the third is hiding out on dagobah presumed dead, and highly unlikely to be mentoring a PC. So the default is that there is no one to teach it to a PC already. Second in the specialization description it says it is a form likely to be practiced by those lacking in formal lightsaber training. So it seems that the developers assumed you are probably going to be learning and mastering Juyo and Vapaad on your own. Which is probably why it is such a long winding path to those talents. 

Yoda wasn't a practitioner of Vaapad (though he was a master of all 7 classic forms).  The three Vaapad practitioners I mentioned are: Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, and Depa Billaba.  Sora and Depa fell to the dark-side, but Depa was later redeemed to the light-side.  Sora Bulq was killed later during the Clone Wars.  As for how anyone could learn Juyo and the Vaapad variation, via holocrons.  In Legends, Luke and his Jedi Order eventually rediscover several Jedi holocrons that provided complete records of each form.  During an episode of the Clone Wars tv show, we see the holocron vault at the main temple with thousands of holocrons.  It's completely feasible, and even likely, that Master Windu created a holocron with instructions on Vaapad.

An interesting note, Vaapad's heavier use of emotions makes it even easier to fall to the dark-side then standard Form VII.  In truth, talents associated with Vaapad should generate more Conflict then the normal Juyo talents.  Not really a big deal, just interesting.

 

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, if you read his quote from Path if the Jedi, he's not stating it as an opinion. He's stating it as a matter of fact. As the information within the main text says, how it requires embracing strong passions and emotions to make proper use of the style, making it very dangerous for a Jedi to use, Palpatine annotates it, basically saying, "No S#!7. That's because it's a Sith style. Of course it requires strong emotions." This isn't opinion. Opinions can be neither correct nor incorrect. This is a matter of fact. It is either a Sith Style or it is not one. Given the fact that not only do we have a high level Sith Lord claiming that the style is a Sith style, but the majority of practitioners were Sith, and it is inherently Dark Side in nature, drawing on strong, negative emotions and passions. That is what makes it a Sith style. Does that mean a Jedi can't learn it? No. But it does make it very dangerous for one to do so, which is why it is restricted

Most of Palpatine's notes in "Path of the Jedi" are snarky comments, and hold little to no basis in fact.  Rather, the fact that Palpatine is the only one who believes it heavily implies it's his personal opinion.  As a fictional setting, we also have out of character knowledge about the setting.  Yet there isn't a single statement about it being a Sith style other then Palpatine's remark.

We've debated this point enough.  I don't expect to change your point of view, nor will you be able to change mine.  How bout we shake on it and call it a day?

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Palpatine is an extreme example of an "unreliable narrator" but there is also no reason to believe that Windu is the only one to have uncovered Vaapad and that only two others learned it. It is quite possible that other practitioners independently developed the techniques of Vaapad (even if they did not call it such) over the 25,000 years of recorded galactic history. Windu might believe he was the first to do so, but that's pretty much the typical Jedi arrogance of his day coming out. Perhaps the Sith even developed the techniques Windo called Vaapad in an attempt to balance embracing passion while maintaining control (not all Sith want to be raging psychos). Anyway, all of this depends upon how much weight you want to give that particular bit of EU lore in the first place.

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On my table Juyo, as the Sith style, is rather more modern than the rest and thus is 'incomplete' the vapaad selection does not exist as being available to my Sith players quite simply because it hasn't been invented yet. 

Be careful when balancing whatever you add but I wouldn't personally be against a new inclusion.

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Personally I think I'd remove more than just the Inner Peace and Balance talents away, I'd probably remove Vaapad Control and one of the Parry too.  Replacements:

Additions: 1 Quick Strike, 2 Lethal Blows, 1 Embrace Your Hate, something new that is suitably deadly and worthy as a capstone talent.  Don't have any good idea right now.

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I'd say keep the Specialization tree the same.

If any Talents don't seem to fit due to the era I'd just let it be and let the players work out the narrative/meta/philosophical implication of the Talents as they are bought (or are about to be bought) as a PC makes their way through the tree.

Maybe the PC has a Mentor that teaches them these techniques.  Or it's from a Holocron.  Or it's being somewhat self-taught/discovered/explored.  Maybe the PC is learning it from a Sith Holocron and strives to find a way to "balance" it out.

In short, it can be a tool for character/story development.  Or not if the PC doesn't really care to.

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On 2/4/2019 at 6:47 PM, HappyDaze said:

Palpatine is an extreme example of an "unreliable narrator" but there is also no reason to believe that Windu is the only one to have uncovered Vaapad and that only two others learned it. It is quite possible that other practitioners independently developed the techniques of Vaapad (even if they did not call it such) over the 25,000 years of recorded galactic history. Windu might believe he was the first to do so, but that's pretty much the typical Jedi arrogance of his day coming out. Perhaps the Sith even developed the techniques Windo called Vaapad in an attempt to balance embracing passion while maintaining control (not all Sith want to be raging psychos). Anyway, all of this depends upon how much weight you want to give that particular bit of EU lore in the first place.

I mean, we have multiple out of character statements saying Windu created Vaapad.  Not rediscovered or "uncovered"as you put it, but that he created it.  Now if you want to discount that at your table, that's perfectly fine.

3 hours ago, Count Cenex de Solaan said:

Personally I think I'd remove more than just the Inner Peace and Balance talents away, I'd probably remove Vaapad Control and one of the Parry too.  Replacements:

Additions: 1 Quick Strike, 2 Lethal Blows, 1 Embrace Your Hate, something new that is suitably deadly and worthy as a capstone talent.  Don't have any good idea right now.

I don't have any issues with Balance, and I still go back and forth on Inner Peace.  After all, Juyo practitioners are said to have a really calm outward appearance to balance their inner emotions.  At the moment, I'm leaning toward replacing Vaapad Control with Improved Parry.

2 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I'd say keep the Specialization tree the same.

If any Talents don't seem to fit due to the era I'd just let it be and let the players work out the narrative/meta/philosophical implication of the Talents as they are bought (or are about to be bought) as a PC makes their way through the tree.

Maybe the PC has a Mentor that teaches them these techniques.  Or it's from a Holocron.  Or it's being somewhat self-taught/discovered/explored.  Maybe the PC is learning it from a Sith Holocron and strives to find a way to "balance" it out.

In short, it can be a tool for character/story development.  Or not if the PC doesn't really care to.

Many others have echoed similar statements.  However, I asked what changes other people might make, not if I should make any changes.  My minds already made up that at least Vaapad Control has to go, and potentially the Inner Peace talents as well.

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I don't own the book so I've only access to the short texts. For me it seems Inner Peace is there to balance Embrace your Hate. If you remove Inner Peace, you'll make for a Juyo practitioner a lot more difficult to not fall to the DarkSide. He / She would need to be very careful before using Embrace Your Hate and Juyo Savagery. Then if your goal is to make Juyo a Sith Style, it's the way to go.

There's already 3 ranks of Parry to buy in the tree. Adding two more ranks seems to much for an offensive style. Personally if I'd replace Inner Peace with Embrace your Hate. That'll mean 2 more ranks of Embrace your Hate could be bought. And 2 more occasions to take conflict. For Vaapad Control replacing it with a non-ranked talent that gives conflict seems the better option. I was thinking of something like this :

Unleash your Rage : When making a lightsaber combat check, the character may suffer 1 strain to hit a number of opponents at engaged range equal to number of Dark Side Destiny points in the Destiny pool. And then suffer Conflict equal to all Dark Side Destiny points in the pool whatever the number of opponents hit.

Some kind of autofire for lightsaber without needing advantages to trigger but heavy on Conflict.

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