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Slanse

Naming tradition and invocations

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I'm a bit confused by the tradition and naming of the different invocation:

 

from what i understand in the side note on page 190, if a invocation doe not have a name in your tradition he does not exist "yet" but once in game you could name/discover it ( but not get it from the start or without work) 

But many school give starting invocations that don't have a name for them in the tradition naming system they use ( fire from withing as no alchemical name, but is a starting invocation choice for the agasha)

On the other hand, there are no "utilitarian" name (used by the kuni) in chapter 4, are the main name the utilitarian name, are they the only school to have access to all the spell. 

Am i reading way to much rules into what is essentially a lore thing ?

 

thanks for the help

Edited by Slanse

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Short answer, yes.  I think that the people writing the Invocation lore and the Shugenja schools didn't talk to each other.  I have just been making up a bunch of names myself and saying that after a few hundred years, everyone has their own name for everything.  I have a spreadsheet, if you'd like.

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To piggyback this question, does a different name imply that the mechanical effects are the same but it might thematically appear different? To borrow terms from a different game- the somatic, material, and vocal components aren't the same? Which might provide information about the school you were trained in?

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4 hours ago, T_Kageyasu said:

To piggyback this question, does a different name imply that the mechanical effects are the same but it might thematically appear different? To borrow terms from a different game- the somatic, material, and vocal components aren't the same? Which might provide information about the school you were trained in?

I'd say definitely.  Meishodo is obviously more obvious, but I get the impression that Alchemy tends to have more 'material components' compared to the rest, whereas Ancestral and Fortunist could be identified by their verbal bits, calling on specific spirits.

 

As an extra question, which tradition do Mantis use, do you think?

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4 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'd say definitely.  Meishodo is obviously more obvious, but I get the impression that Alchemy tends to have more 'material components' compared to the rest, whereas Ancestral and Fortunist could be identified by their verbal bits, calling on specific spirits.

 

As an extra question, which tradition do Mantis use, do you think?

They were originaly extremly sun orientend in the 4th edition and the sea theme is also very prevalent so i'd says a lot of invocation calling on amaterasu and suitengu.

 

Otherwise they are long long ago desendent from the crab so i could see more utilitarian name, would also fit the whole ireverence and piratical theme they got

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My alchemical invocations tend to include dramatic mixing of powders, liquids and organic substances on the fly. I particularly enjoy describing how I dirty my comrades faces, hands, clothes or equipment with the resulting mud-like mixtures as I augment them.  The kami will consume most of the offering, but apparently there's always a bit left over...

I feel like the original name of each invocations could often be associated with one tradition or another. Invocations that include fortune names could be fortunist, while if they include a samurai name of old, that could be ancestral, etc.

For the Kuni, utilitarian names would be very simple names that simply describe what it does. Armor of Earth, Extinguish, etc. I'm not sure why no invocation seem to offer utilitarian alternatives, since a lot of the original names seem far too complicated and artistic to be "utilitarian".

For Mantis, I'd say either go utilitarian like the Kuni, since no embellishment is needed for them, or elemental like the Isawa, the Asahina and the Yogo, since they concentrate on manipulating water and air, and the storm combinations. It's sad that they didn't add the usual sidebar in the Mantis supplement. Also, extra bit of info, the fiction "Beneath, Below, Beyond" describes their invocation performance as including hand waving.

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There are probably a few invocations for which the Mantis are bound to use a fortunist name: any invocation that can somehow be tied to Osano-wo!! He's one of their blessed ancestors, before becoming the fortune of thunder, after all.

Besides the obvious Fury of Osano-wo, I could find:

  • Sword of Osano-wo (Katana of Fire)
  • Peace of Osano-wo (The Cleansing Fire)
  • Armor of Osano-wo (Armor of Radiance)
  • Chasing Osano-wo (Wall of Fire)
  • and even on Earth invocation: Osano-wo's Determination (Power of the Earth Dragon)...

As an aside, this can also be a good starting selection for a Fortunist monk dedicated to Osano-wo (and think of what Fury of Osano-wo could do with [school rank] bonus successes!)

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4 hours ago, Slanse said:

They were originaly extremly sun orientend in the 4th edition and the sea theme is also very prevalent so i'd says a lot of invocation calling on amaterasu and suitengu.

 

Otherwise they are long long ago desendent from the crab so i could see more utilitarian name, would also fit the whole ireverence and piratical theme they got

The Amaterasu thing was something they absorbed when they took over the Moshi of the Centipede Clan.  Currently that clan is (rightly) independent, so it may be that Utilitarian is the correct one.  Then again, they do call on Osano-wo and Suitengu a lot, so it may be Fortunist.

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15 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

As an extra question, which tradition do Mantis use, do you think?

Of all clans and families I'd imagine they are most diverse, having far more contact with other clans, nations, and cultures (except for maybe the Unicorn) so as not to have their own distinctive tradition but borrowing and blending the practices of others, unless it directly involved Osano-wo or in later years the great Yoritomo. In any case, I'd think there'd always be a generous marine offering (ie. purified sea salt, water, pearls, coral).

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I'm not sure I agree with the answer to the opening point, 

Firstly, the sidebar on pg. 192 states that the alternate names given are just "some" of the alternative names, implying that other names may exist (and for that matter, which tradition does the technique name belong to? Sure blessed wind may be known by other names to alchemists, fortunists or foreign magic users, but who calls it "blessed wind"?). 

And secondly, the shugenja schools don't make it explicitly clear which tradition they teach (though in many cases this can be inferred), and this is necessary information if this is a hard rule. 

I would be more inclined to treat the sidebar on pg. 190 as story guidance and ideas for plot, as otherwise it is contradictory (both with the points I've raised, and with the character generation rules as noted above), 

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5 minutes ago, gareth_lazelle said:

shugenja schools don't make it explicitly clear which tradition they teach

No, they do, this information is on a sidebar for every shugenja tagged school in core, and the proper shugenja school in EE - the only place it's missing is Mantis (which is probably an oversight) and the Kitsune Impersonator which very much kind of an odd case. And also not strictly a school, more a general tradition of stuff you have special access to as a spirit-person. That said, I do agree with the principle it isn't necessarily a hard rule, and one doesn't need to overcomplicate it with "X tradition doesn't have a name for this invocation, they must not teach that" if it's also in your school. I think the notation is supposed to be open ended if you go outside of curriculum to learn Invocations (which remember, you can) and if it doesn't have a name in your tradition that may require studying outside arts or inventing some new approach in your tradition. I don't think the game ever wants to stop you from going in the direction you want, just that technically, learning new techniques is supposed to reflect some study and training, possibly with a teacher. 

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7 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

No, they do, this information is on a sidebar for every shugenja tagged school in core, 

Ah, I stand corrected, thanks, 

You'd have thought they'd have put something like that in with the school information header, not a sidebar... 

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22 hours ago, gareth_lazelle said:

I'm not sure I agree with the answer to the opening point, 

Firstly, the sidebar on pg. 192 states that the alternate names given are just "some" of the alternative names, implying that other names may exist (and for that matter, which tradition does the technique name belong to? Sure blessed wind may be known by other names to alchemists, fortunists or foreign magic users, but who calls it "blessed wind"?). 

I've actually spent some time working out which tradition the 'standard' name for each invocation comes from.  Blessed Wind is probably an Elementalist name for the Invocation, since it's clearly not Ancestral and the other 3 traditions already have a name for it.  I was able to use similar logic for nearly all of the others,

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11 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I've actually spent some time working out which tradition the 'standard' name for each invocation comes from.  Blessed Wind is probably an Elementalist name for the Invocation, since it's clearly not Ancestral and the other 3 traditions already have a name for it.  I was able to use similar logic for nearly all of the others,

I'd be interested in seeing that if you have the time to post it sometime, 

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4 hours ago, gareth_lazelle said:

I'd be interested in seeing that if you have the time to post it sometime, 

Here's a quick extract from the spreadsheet

Alchemy Ancestral Elemental Foreign Fortunist Utilitarian
False Realm of the Fox Spirit Matsu's Battlecry Armour of Radiance Bind the Shadow By the Light of Lord Moon Armour of Earth
Jurojin's Balm   Blessed Wind Biting Steel Courage of Seven Thunders Bo of Water
Nature's Touch   Breath of the Fire Dragon Dance of Seasons Dominion of Suijin Cloak of Night
Sympathetic Energies   Call upon the Wind Hands of the Tides Embrace of Kenro-Ji-Jin Earthquake
Token of Memory   Caress of Earth Path to Inner Peace Fukurokujin's Wit Extinguish
Vapour of Nightmares   Earth becomes Sky Ravenous Swarms Fury of Osano-Wo Jade Strike
    Ever-Changing Waves Stride the Waves Inari's Blessing Katana of Fire
    Grasp of Earth   Reflections of P'an Ku Summon Fog
    Grasp of the Air Dragon   Suijin's Embrace Tetsubo of Earth
    Heart of the Water Dragon   Wrath of Kaze-no-Kami Tomb of Jade
    Mask of Wind     Wall of Earth
    Power of the Earth Dragon     Wall of Fire
    Rise, Air     Yari of Air
    Rise, Earth      
    Rise, Flame      
    Rise, Water      
    Secrets on the Wind      
    Strike the Tsunami      
    Symbol of Earth      
    Tempest of Air      
    The Cleansing Fire      
    The Fires from Within      
    The Rushing Wave      
    The Soul's Blade      
    Wings of the Phoenix      

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