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ForceSensitive

I agree with every point/slot change except for Proton Torpedoes

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43 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

My original thinking was that there would be a scale to ordinance based on initiative but I wasn't saying it should cost 6 as one said. The model in my head was like it's 8pts if you're a 3 or lower, then +2 for each additional init, cap at 14. I had thought of E-wings running hot with them as a potential problem.

I'm salivating at the thought of a 3x E-Wing list with Proton Torpedoes *and* R2 Astromechs.

But at that point, you might have to raise the price of E-Wings... I think the exactly fair price for an Init 2 Knave is 66 - Proton Torpedoes.

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13 hours ago, Ikka said:

Actually, I kind of like the idea of ordinance being priced to initiative, it would be useful in adding another layer of list-building strategy. Currently, I'm ok with the increase in torp cost, but the initiative idea is intriguing.

Won't work for that similar reason PS based advanced sensors won't, they are situationally good on low PS.

Ptropts are generally worst at low initiative but there are abilities that negate much of that disadvantage, price ptrops the like SN and those lists become the meta.

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I disagree about AdvSen not working at init. Actually it's brilliant. As someone earlier pointed out, nothing stops a low init ship from using it's AdvSen in any given game. It saves your action from bumps, red moves, and with everything having some form of built in reposition, you can use it with low init to pull off some really good blocks. They got priced at init variables because the higher init you get the better they get of course with all those options. Which is what we're arguing should be the premise with torps, since while yes as you point out certain ships, abilities, and combos will be able to get them off at lower init, it's far more likely they will fail, or just explode before they get full value anyway. Especially if they're dependant on those other abilities to work which can get disrupted, and are a tax anyway.

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And AS is a LOT less OP at high inits than it was in 1e, because you can't chain off it for double repositioning any more.

Not to mention that there honestly aren't THAT many high init pilots that want it.  C brobots don't, they lose the free evade, ditto defenders.  Vader doesn't, he loses his ability.  X1s in general don't because FCS is better for them.  Arguably, v1s too.

Guri does, though I really prefer CD.

There really aren't all that amny ships at I5+ with Sensors and very few want AS more than something else.

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I will also join the dissagreement with ordinance cost scaling with initiative. Because as others have pointed out there are ways to work around the initiative issue. The real solution in my opinion is one or two more really generic ways to work around it. Like for example that will let you trade a focus for a target lock at the beginning of the combat phase. Generics that like ordinance can pay the tax for the increased usability, while high initiative pilots are already paying with their higher initiative.

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There are lists, which could abuse the low price tag of "Initiative-ProTorps" and become the triple Jumpmaster of 2.0

Which ones? Basically any lists which can get Target Locks from a high Initative ship (coordinate) or which are able to get their locks beyond range 3.

Here is an example:

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (30)
Proton Torpedoes (12)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (30)
Proton Torpedoes (12)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (30)
Proton Torpedoes (12)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (30)
Proton Torpedoes (12)

Colonel Jendon (46)

Total: 214

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

 

 

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On 1/31/2019 at 8:15 PM, ForceSensitive said:

When I'm not alcoholically intoxicated and giggly at my own aggressive s...posting, I do occasionally enjoy a pleasant discussion. Please pardon my occasional belligerence for a brief sidebar on this minor topic.

Honestly, I do agree with every change they made but one. In fact they cheapened some components that I thought were just fine as were. And they went an extra mile by realizing that AdvSen and SuperFlex needed variables. So... Yay!...? I mean, my main completive list got bumped out by one point net change, but now I get other build decisions in it that I was wanting to play anyway, and only traded out one torpedo to do it.

But where I do disagree is Protorp. I don't argue it was performing verrrry wellllll. I'm still going to play it at 12pts, that hasn't made it unplayable. But what I'll play it on has changed drastically and I feel not for the better. 

Protons were, and will now continue to be, the staple torp ordinance of high Initiative pilots. Or at least of pilots with specific abilities to use them, like Redline or Dutch. But they have never been a great option on lower initiative, less ability laden pilots. It has never, first or second edition, been a good idea to put torps on a low ps/init pilot. With this price tag it would be plain stupid. Not without a ridiculously complex combo setup that I don't think exists yet. 

My argument is this: Proton Torpedoes, maybe most or all ordinance, should be priced by initiative.

Thanks for your consideration.

Someone's clearly never chained swarm tactics from Wedge, used Airen's I6 shot to give Dutch a red TL, who then gives a free TL to a grey, leaving you 2 fully modded torps where range dodging a lock or moving 2nd is completely irrelevant due to effectively I8 coordinate. 

And look! My abusive list of these 4 ships is still legal and ready to tilt people so long as I drop Wedge's adv torps!

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... There's a lot of ways that combo could get disrupted. Not to mention it's a one trick pony. (Error, retract).

But the real interesting part is how that shows how many hoops you have to jump through to use a 12pt Torpedoes with low initiative. This brings us back to the real problem. Pricing torpedoes on a flat rate affects list diversity. Because every thing you have to do to make a given combination of things work winds up as just a bigger tax. In your example, yes it works, but you had to being Wedge, Dutch, Airen, and Swarm Tactics, just to make the Protons, on I'm assuming the Grey, work. Over three forths of the list are needed to justify and make operable just under 7%. 

Sweet list though. Convoluted, but sweet.

Edited by ForceSensitive
Error retract.

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1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

... There's a lot of ways that combo could get disrupted. Not to mention it's a one trick pony. And as an example only continues to show why they upped ST.

But the real interesting part is how that shows how many hoops you have to jump through to use a 12pt Torpedoes with low initiative. This brings us back to the real problem. Pricing torpedoes on a flat rate affects list diversity. Because every thing you have to do to make a given combination of things work winds up as just a bigger tax. In your example, yes it works, but you had to being Wedge, Dutch, Airen, and Swarm Tactics, just to make the Protons, on I'm assuming the Grey, work. Over three forths of the list are needed to justify and make operable just under 7%. 

Sweet list though. Convoluted, but sweet.

This is not an example of the difficulty of getting torps to work at low I. Colonel Jendon is. Wedge + ST isn’t necessary for Airen + Dutch to work unless you want to give a lock to I6. Also, Airen Dutch is all about getting Dutch to work, and since Dutch only gives one lock, this lock is almost always given to a fellow named pilot, like Luke, Dreis (more likely to roll focus), ten numb, etc. Dutch is excellent action economy without help, but with airen you can get him around the Initiative locking problem to lock everytime you get in range.

Swarm Tactics is still 3 points. Didn’t go up at all.

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Nah torps/missiles should not scale with initiative, allthough high init have the advantage for alpha-strike, low init have the numbers to survive and perform a beta-strike. E.g. like the attani -uboats of v1. 

Large price different between high init and low init would help to enforce this.

 

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On 2/1/2019 at 5:33 AM, TheCeilican said:

Proton Torpedoes now cost what they cost in 1st Edition, and are still better than in 1st Edition.

Id have gone higher than 12pts personally.

 

They're actually costed the same as Proton torpedoes with Extra munitions and actually produce basically the same result (4 dice with a focus to crit conversion should pretty reliably produce hit, hit, crit.  4 dice with a reroll and hit to crit conversion should also reliably produce hit, hit, crit).  The major difference is that ships that can focus and lock get more out of the torps now, but then again it's also harder to get focus + lock now than it was due to harder caps on action economy.  So, they're the same cost as EM Protorps, basically do the same thing as EM protorps and nobody played EM protorps, hence they're balanced and should go higher in points...wait, what were we talking about again?

 

IMHO, 12pts costs them into oblivion for most pilots.  The handful of aces that could really use them (consistently get focus + lock), probably still take them (those aces are naturally expensive, in for a penny, in for a pound and all that, so what's another 3 pts), but the for the normal run-of the mill pilot whose ability doesn't dramatically increase the value of torps, or, god help you, a generic, these things are basically unplayable. 

 

For me, this is the worst possible scenario.  You've removed them as an interesting option for ships that don't get the most out of them, but haven't put them out of reach for the ships that can really get the most out of it.  In that regards, 12pt protorps is a lot like 5pt Juke, why bother?  You're not addressing the core problem that some ships or pilots just get far more value out of this than others.

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